Crates - Page 8 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Stitches29 · 05-23-2005, 12:55 PM

Lickthestar.

I think you need to change the subject of this thread to:

NOW ISN'T THIS JUST CRATE!!!!!

Lexi's_Mommy · 05-23-2005, 01:56 PM

I haven't read everyones response so if I repeat something sorry.

My sister had a 3 yr old cat and a 15yr old s**tzu (neither crated) One night around midnight there was a fire in her attic. The cat got out of the house when the fire fighters came but her little s**tzu who always slept right next to her bed ran and hid. When he was found it was to late.

Lexi sleeps in her crate at night and will forever. She sleeps through the night and when she wakes up I take her straight outside. If I have to leave her home alone during the day then she goes in her play pen. (it is huge) Her playpen has a bed, food, water, a basket of toys, a wee wee pad, and still enough room to run around. My reason for putting her in the crate at night, is I know exactly where she is at, and I know she is sleeping, (the same reasons I use a baby monitor and put my kids in bed everynight) Why I use a play pen when gone because Lexi is NOT potty trained. (and NO one can say it's not because I don't work with her, I am very patient, and I take her out every hr on the hr. she still comes in and pees. If she ever goes a few weeks or maybe even a month withiut peeing in my house then I'll take down the play pen other wise it stays. When I'm home Lexi has run of the house if she potties in the house, I give her a firm NO take her outside and say potty here.(if I'm going about the potty training wrong someone please feel free to give your 2 cents I don't know what I'm doing wrong)

Anyway hope this answers your ?.

natalie · 05-23-2005, 02:28 PM

All I have to say is, yes.. I crate Fred for my personal piece of mind when I am not home. Although, he does not stay in his crate for more than 10-18 hours a day like that excerpt on the website suggested.. I crate Fred a total of about 2-3 hours a day when I am gone. I do not want to give him free roam of the house because I do not want him to get curious and eat things he's not supposed to be eating or biting things that are deemed bad for his health (wires, cords, cable lines, wooden chairs) or even jumping onto things and falling off. Somewhere along the lines of keeping him in his crate when everyone is gone, he has grown comfortable with his crate like it was his little refuge spot when he wants to nap, or lay around. I did not train him to feel comfortable in his crate (if that's even possible!

)

As for the comparison between child and dog, I do not understand. You train a dog, you teach a child. The life of a child is so much more complex than that of a dog. Children have to learn things that, of course, a dog will never understand such as morality, dealing with choices and bad decisions, table manners, et cetera. I am not saying that I do not treat my dog like my own child, but in terms of "treating him like a child".. I give him my love and affection. I spoil him and I pamper him but it is near impossible to raise my dog like my own child.
"So, to me, leaving a 2 year old dog in a cage while you go to work is like leaving your teenage son in a playpen." A two year old dog was born crawling on all fours and stays on all fours throughout his/her life. A teenager was born, crawled on all fours and then learned to walk on two feet. Let me see your dog walk on two feet, and maybe than will I begin to understand this analogy. You put your baby in a playpen when doing house chores because you try to keep them from harm. You keep your dog in a crate when you're gone for the same reason. The difference is, you don't leave a baby unattended in their playpen when you are not home. Babies are not banned from grocery stores and highly populated areas. Dogs are (in Texas atleast).

If I had the choice to leave my little man in a crate when I'm gone or take him with me without leaving him in the car, I'd take him with me. But, there are places with rules and restrictions that I cannot change therefore I have to keep him in his crate when I am gone.

I think it's just all personal preference. I don't see anything wrong with it, and sometimes I even think Fred loves his crate!

lickthestar · 05-23-2005, 05:14 PM

I don't think I would go so far as to say that it's OK to crate your dog because a dog is not allowed in public places. Those are two different issues. And I do have to disagree, to some extent, that a dog is trained and not taught. I believe that I do teach my dog things everyday but perhaps not at a complex level as I would teach children. i really would rather not go into that topic because it's something else altogether. The point I was trying to elicit was that whether you train or teach, there's gotta be a point where that lesson ends.

people on this thread say they crate their dog for minimal periods of time when they are not home to prevent their dog from engaging in bad behaviour. but what about when you are home? does your dog do those bad things that you are afraid he will do when you are not home? Like i mentioned earlier, if I knew that my dog had certain tendencies, I would make it a point to address the issue but if you don't know that they have that tendency, then isn't it just a presumption?

I take Archie to the dog park. He might get into a fight with another dog, but he hasn't done that yet. But does the possibility that he might mean that I need to deprive him of having friends? What I think my argument(s), the more i develop them along the way, are coming down to is an issue of trust.

do you trust your dog to be home alone and behave, as you, the owner have taught/trained him to?

ReconsMomma · 05-23-2005, 05:20 PM

I dont understand why you continue to ask the same questions. People have answered you over and over and over again. So why keep things going??

natalie · 05-23-2005, 05:35 PM

Now your replies seem more contradicting and redundant than they are a question. If you teach your dog everyday, that means your dog has the capacity in his mind to learn something new everyday. Therefore, if your dog learns something new everyday, that makes him susceptible to be curious of much broader things. And, like you said.. since you teach him new things everyday than would training him ever end? The common sense answer would be no, it wouldn't end if you taught him something new everyday.

Just like the cliche phrase "Curiousity kills a cat", I'm sure it can be applied to dogs.

I crate my dog because I don't want him to harm himself in anyway. And the reason why I crate him is because, yes, I am presumptuous of what he might do to himself. I know that he is curious by nature. He loves to sniff. He'll bite anything for the sake of biting and taste something for the sake of eating. I am not there to watch over him, that is the difference of letting him out when I am home and putting him in his crate when I am not. I feel much more safe knowing what he's doing, what he's chewing on and playing with and if he is anywhere in harm's way. It seems like you aren't considering the fact that dogs learn new things on their own everyday, on top of things you may train them. My point is, when I am gone and noone is watching I don't want him getting into something he's not supposed to be getting into.
but what about when you are home? does your dog do those bad things that you are afraid he will do when you are not home? No, because I am there to watch him to make sure he doesn't get himself into those predicaments.

As for the dog park, you are watching over him are you not? That's a different story. The majority of crating and what people have explained to you is that we all crate them when we leave the house and noone is watching. Comparatively, it would be you leaving your dog at the dog park and leaving him there for two hours and then coming back. Wouldn't you wonder and worry about what he did for those two hours or if anything happened?

It's not really a trust issue, it's a I-Worry-My-Dog-Is-In-Trouble-When-I'm-Gone issue.

And no, I'm not justifying my crating with the fact that my dog is not allowed in public places. But he wouldn't be crated if he were.

whispersmom2 · 05-23-2005, 05:49 PM

I keep trying to figger out why this is such an issue. You either crate or you don't. You either approve of their use in which case you use them; OR, you don't approve and you don't use them. Using the example of dog might get in fight in the dog park is not the same-for that to apply, you would have to take your dog to the park and go off and leave him or her. I have not had a Yorkie of any age climb out of the wire Xpens but if they did, I would get a huge crate with a top and they could retreat to that or they could stay in it if I had to be out of the house.
After a bezillion replies we are still where we were to start with...some agree and some disagree. I don't think any of our babies are permanently traumatized in either case.

AYork · 05-23-2005, 06:01 PM

I too crate my Yorkie (also named Peanut), but only during the night. We use a baby gate at the end of the hallway to keep him confined to just that hallway while we are at work, etc. for the protection of our house and his safety. Peanut is very curious and even when watched closeley he manages to find things around the house that I have no idea where he found them. As long as the crate is of adequate size, I really don't see the problem with it. Plus, it is Peanut's comfy place - he curls up and sleeps in there on his blankets or goes in if he feels scared (i.e. when we run the vacuum, etc.). It is his little sanctuary.

For those of you wondering why we crate him at night, it is for 3 reasons: 1) I am a heavy sleeper and tend to move around in bed and have in the past accidentally kicked him or rolled on him a little bit (before he barked and moved) so I think he is safer in the crate, 2) my bed is high so his jumping off the bed scares me, and I would hate for him to get hurt jumping in the night, or getting a hold of something when I can't watch him, and 3) when we travel he is very comfortable sleeping in the crate. Some people we visit would prefer that he not sleep in the bed with me (why I don't know) and it gives him his sanctuary if he is uncertain in new places.

Everyone has their own reasons for doing it, and it won't be acceptable to everyone. But they have their reasons - if you don't have any reasons or don't feel the need or like it, that's fine. But please be accepting of other people's point of view. While your intention may not have been to attack anyone or make anyone feel bad, you surely must see how people are becoming upset by the way you have stated your view.

And to directly answer your question - I am not using the crate to train Peanut, but rather as a personal, safe space for him. I will continue to use it as long as I have him, because it is his very own space and he is safe and feels safe when he is in it.

I hope you can understand this point of view, even if you do not agree with it.

mojo · 05-23-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReconsMomma

I dont understand why you continue to ask the same questions. People have answered you over and over and over again. So why keep things going??

EXACTLY. Just wants to get her point across, doesn't care what anyone else's opinions are, so just keeps turning everything back to what she wants to say.

What's the point of even responding anymore??? She doesnt care what you have to say, you wants to tell you to do what she wants you to do with your dog. Seriously, I still don't get it, why do you care????????

YorkieRose · 05-23-2005, 06:27 PM

I think we each have to do what works for us and our pets...but one thing for sure...a pup can be totally unpredictable in behavior and adults can hurt themselves...I perfer to err on the side of safety...a peed rug, chewed chair leg or ripped up pillow can be replaced..my dead puppy or adult can not.

If I have heard it once I have heard it an 100 times.."my Yorkie never did that in the past"...I had a grooming client who took her Yorkie with her to get gas each week...the dog never got out of the car in 5 yearsnof her life... she sat in the back window and watched..then one day she bolted out the car door and was killed..why did she do it, it was so unpredictable. Her next pet never rode in the car uncrated..may sound cruel to you, but my friend will not lose this Yorkie in the same way. The pain of losing a companion is worth a bit of extra precaution...I have had Yorkies for 33 yrs and I do not trust them to always react the same way day after day...and I relieved to say I have never lost one to an accident...and we are talking about dozens of Yorkies, plus even more boarders in those many years.

Laura · 05-23-2005, 06:34 PM

I have actually enjoyed all the stories this has invoked. I think lickthestar is a very intellegent but young person. My 17 year old son is a genius and has a correction for everything. He is however very unexperienced in life. I did however want to mention if I put him in a cage size relative to zowie's his room would be 24' x 24' - much bigger than his actual room . He also willingly stays there hours on end coming out only for school and if I make him (I am exagerating a little). His bed is there (he does have to let himself out to potty), his toys, tv, computer - all are there for him to enjoy, and occasionally I bring him food. I keep zowie's cage cleaner, too.

YorkieRose · 05-23-2005, 06:35 PM

Rini Whisper...I had a girl, Joy we called "monkey Dog"...she could climb out of her pen and walk on top of all the empty pens around the playroom...that was my big 15X20 room...she could go from the first pen and walk around the entire room never having to get down on the floor...and she could climb up on top of the upright freezer I had in there...why did she perfer to walk on top of the pens instead of the floor...? I never got her to stop..

lickthestar · 05-23-2005, 06:53 PM

It's apparent that this thread has invoked a lot of anger in people, and to prevent this from becoming a personal attack on me or anyone else, I think it's best to stop and not post anymore on this subject. I also think that it's getting off the point. Although some complain that I'm making a big deal out of this, people are continuing to post on the matter, and not always for the right reasons, so let's put a rest to the subject, shall we?

On a side note, I'm not THAT young and inexperienced. I also don't believe that I'm correcting anyone in what they're doing, but merely bringing up a topic that, in the long run, has a lot of pros and cons which are useful to consider for new and future yorkie members when they do a search.

I enjoyed this exercise of frank discussion and opinions. Let's give ourselves a paws-up.

martym112 · 05-23-2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laura

I have actually enjoyed all the stories this has invoked. I think lickthestar is a very intellegent but young person. My 17 year old son is a genius and has a correction for everything. He is however very unexperienced in life. I did however want to mention if I put him in a cage size relative to zowie's his room would be 24' x 24' - much bigger than his actual room . He also willingly stays there hours on end coming out only for school and if I make him (I am exagerating a little). His bed is there (he does have to let himself out to potty), his toys, tv, computer - all are there for him to enjoy, and occasionally I bring him food. I keep zowie's cage cleaner, too.

LOL! Well said Laura!

iheartyorkies · 05-23-2005, 07:10 PM

Yep, Admin close this thread before we all drive ourselves insane!!! Let's just agree to disagree.

05-23-2005, 01:56 PM	#107
Lexi's_Mommy ~GirlieGirls~ Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 5,293	I haven't read everyones response so if I repeat something sorry. My sister had a 3 yr old cat and a 15yr old stzu (neither crated) One night around midnight there was a fire in her attic. The cat got out of the house when the fire fighters came but her little stzu who always slept right next to her bed ran and hid. When he was found it was to late. Lexi sleeps in her crate at night and will forever. She sleeps through the night and when she wakes up I take her straight outside. If I have to leave her home alone during the day then she goes in her play pen. (it is huge) Her playpen has a bed, food, water, a basket of toys, a wee wee pad, and still enough room to run around. My reason for putting her in the crate at night, is I know exactly where she is at, and I know she is sleeping, (the same reasons I use a baby monitor and put my kids in bed everynight) Why I use a play pen when gone because Lexi is NOT potty trained. (and NO one can say it's not because I don't work with her, I am very patient, and I take her out every hr on the hr. she still comes in and pees. If she ever goes a few weeks or maybe even a month withiut peeing in my house then I'll take down the play pen other wise it stays. When I'm home Lexi has run of the house if she potties in the house, I give her a firm NO take her outside and say potty here.(if I'm going about the potty training wrong someone please feel free to give your 2 cents I don't know what I'm doing wrong) Anyway hope this answers your ?. __________________ Tricia ~ mommy to Alexis, Victoria, & Candise www.TriciaMartinPhotography.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotosbytricia/sets/ Last edited by Lexi's_Mommy; 05-23-2005 at 01:58 PM.

05-23-2005, 02:28 PM	#108
natalie Owned by Fred Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 1,352	All I have to say is, yes.. I crate Fred for my personal piece of mind when I am not home. Although, he does not stay in his crate for more than 10-18 hours a day like that excerpt on the website suggested.. I crate Fred a total of about 2-3 hours a day when I am gone. I do not want to give him free roam of the house because I do not want him to get curious and eat things he's not supposed to be eating or biting things that are deemed bad for his health (wires, cords, cable lines, wooden chairs) or even jumping onto things and falling off. Somewhere along the lines of keeping him in his crate when everyone is gone, he has grown comfortable with his crate like it was his little refuge spot when he wants to nap, or lay around. I did not train him to feel comfortable in his crate (if that's even possible! ) As for the comparison between child and dog, I do not understand. You train a dog, you teach a child. The life of a child is so much more complex than that of a dog. Children have to learn things that, of course, a dog will never understand such as morality, dealing with choices and bad decisions, table manners, et cetera. I am not saying that I do not treat my dog like my own child, but in terms of "treating him like a child".. I give him my love and affection. I spoil him and I pamper him but it is near impossible to raise my dog like my own child. "So, to me, leaving a 2 year old dog in a cage while you go to work is like leaving your teenage son in a playpen." A two year old dog was born crawling on all fours and stays on all fours throughout his/her life. A teenager was born, crawled on all fours and then learned to walk on two feet. Let me see your dog walk on two feet, and maybe than will I begin to understand this analogy. You put your baby in a playpen when doing house chores because you try to keep them from harm. You keep your dog in a crate when you're gone for the same reason. The difference is, you don't leave a baby unattended in their playpen when you are not home. Babies are not banned from grocery stores and highly populated areas. Dogs are (in Texas atleast). If I had the choice to leave my little man in a crate when I'm gone or take him with me without leaving him in the car, I'd take him with me. But, there are places with rules and restrictions that I cannot change therefore I have to keep him in his crate when I am gone. I think it's just all personal preference. I don't see anything wrong with it, and sometimes I even think Fred loves his crate! Last edited by natalie; 05-23-2005 at 02:31 PM.

05-23-2005, 06:27 PM	#115
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	crating I think we each have to do what works for us and our pets...but one thing for sure...a pup can be totally unpredictable in behavior and adults can hurt themselves...I perfer to err on the side of safety...a peed rug, chewed chair leg or ripped up pillow can be replaced..my dead puppy or adult can not. If I have heard it once I have heard it an 100 times.."my Yorkie never did that in the past"...I had a grooming client who took her Yorkie with her to get gas each week...the dog never got out of the car in 5 yearsnof her life... she sat in the back window and watched..then one day she bolted out the car door and was killed..why did she do it, it was so unpredictable. Her next pet never rode in the car uncrated..may sound cruel to you, but my friend will not lose this Yorkie in the same way. The pain of losing a companion is worth a bit of extra precaution...I have had Yorkies for 33 yrs and I do not trust them to always react the same way day after day...and I relieved to say I have never lost one to an accident...and we are talking about dozens of Yorkies, plus even more boarders in those many years.

05-23-2005, 06:35 PM	#117
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	Joy Rini Whisper...I had a girl, Joy we called "monkey Dog"...she could climb out of her pen and walk on top of all the empty pens around the playroom...that was my big 15X20 room...she could go from the first pen and walk around the entire room never having to get down on the floor...and she could climb up on top of the upright freezer I had in there...why did she perfer to walk on top of the pens instead of the floor...? I never got her to stop..

05-23-2005, 07:10 PM	#120
iheartyorkies Boppin' Bo! Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,719	Yep, Admin close this thread before we all drive ourselves insane!!! Let's just agree to disagree. __________________ ~~~ i yorkies ~~~ Cynthia Turbo and Suri!

05-23-2005, 12:55 PM	#106
Stitches29 My Little Magwad Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 1,739	Lickthestar. I think you need to change the subject of this thread to: NOW ISN'T THIS JUST CRATE!!!!!

05-23-2005, 05:14 PM	#109
lickthestar YT Addict Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NY Posts: 360	I don't think I would go so far as to say that it's OK to crate your dog because a dog is not allowed in public places. Those are two different issues. And I do have to disagree, to some extent, that a dog is trained and not taught. I believe that I do teach my dog things everyday but perhaps not at a complex level as I would teach children. i really would rather not go into that topic because it's something else altogether. The point I was trying to elicit was that whether you train or teach, there's gotta be a point where that lesson ends. people on this thread say they crate their dog for minimal periods of time when they are not home to prevent their dog from engaging in bad behaviour. but what about when you are home? does your dog do those bad things that you are afraid he will do when you are not home? Like i mentioned earlier, if I knew that my dog had certain tendencies, I would make it a point to address the issue but if you don't know that they have that tendency, then isn't it just a presumption? I take Archie to the dog park. He might get into a fight with another dog, but he hasn't done that yet. But does the possibility that he might mean that I need to deprive him of having friends? What I think my argument(s), the more i develop them along the way, are coming down to is an issue of trust. do you trust your dog to be home alone and behave, as you, the owner have taught/trained him to?

05-23-2005, 05:20 PM	#110
ReconsMomma BANNED! Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Janesville WI Posts: 2,483	I dont understand why you continue to ask the same questions. People have answered you over and over and over again. So why keep things going??

05-23-2005, 05:35 PM	#111
natalie Owned by Fred Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 1,352	Now your replies seem more contradicting and redundant than they are a question. If you teach your dog everyday, that means your dog has the capacity in his mind to learn something new everyday. Therefore, if your dog learns something new everyday, that makes him susceptible to be curious of much broader things. And, like you said.. since you teach him new things everyday than would training him ever end? The common sense answer would be no, it wouldn't end if you taught him something new everyday. Just like the cliche phrase "Curiousity kills a cat", I'm sure it can be applied to dogs. I crate my dog because I don't want him to harm himself in anyway. And the reason why I crate him is because, yes, I am presumptuous of what he might do to himself. I know that he is curious by nature. He loves to sniff. He'll bite anything for the sake of biting and taste something for the sake of eating. I am not there to watch over him, that is the difference of letting him out when I am home and putting him in his crate when I am not. I feel much more safe knowing what he's doing, what he's chewing on and playing with and if he is anywhere in harm's way. It seems like you aren't considering the fact that dogs learn new things on their own everyday, on top of things you may train them. My point is, when I am gone and noone is watching I don't want him getting into something he's not supposed to be getting into. but what about when you are home? does your dog do those bad things that you are afraid he will do when you are not home? No, because I am there to watch him to make sure he doesn't get himself into those predicaments. As for the dog park, you are watching over him are you not? That's a different story. The majority of crating and what people have explained to you is that we all crate them when we leave the house and noone is watching. Comparatively, it would be you leaving your dog at the dog park and leaving him there for two hours and then coming back. Wouldn't you wonder and worry about what he did for those two hours or if anything happened? It's not really a trust issue, it's a I-Worry-My-Dog-Is-In-Trouble-When-I'm-Gone issue. And no, I'm not justifying my crating with the fact that my dog is not allowed in public places. But he wouldn't be crated if he were.

05-23-2005, 05:49 PM	#112
whispersmom2 Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MD Posts: 2,985	I keep trying to figger out why this is such an issue. You either crate or you don't. You either approve of their use in which case you use them; OR, you don't approve and you don't use them. Using the example of dog might get in fight in the dog park is not the same-for that to apply, you would have to take your dog to the park and go off and leave him or her. I have not had a Yorkie of any age climb out of the wire Xpens but if they did, I would get a huge crate with a top and they could retreat to that or they could stay in it if I had to be out of the house. After a bezillion replies we are still where we were to start with...some agree and some disagree. I don't think any of our babies are permanently traumatized in either case.

05-23-2005, 06:01 PM	#113
AYork Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 44	I too crate my Yorkie (also named Peanut), but only during the night. We use a baby gate at the end of the hallway to keep him confined to just that hallway while we are at work, etc. for the protection of our house and his safety. Peanut is very curious and even when watched closeley he manages to find things around the house that I have no idea where he found them. As long as the crate is of adequate size, I really don't see the problem with it. Plus, it is Peanut's comfy place - he curls up and sleeps in there on his blankets or goes in if he feels scared (i.e. when we run the vacuum, etc.). It is his little sanctuary. For those of you wondering why we crate him at night, it is for 3 reasons: 1) I am a heavy sleeper and tend to move around in bed and have in the past accidentally kicked him or rolled on him a little bit (before he barked and moved) so I think he is safer in the crate, 2) my bed is high so his jumping off the bed scares me, and I would hate for him to get hurt jumping in the night, or getting a hold of something when I can't watch him, and 3) when we travel he is very comfortable sleeping in the crate. Some people we visit would prefer that he not sleep in the bed with me (why I don't know) and it gives him his sanctuary if he is uncertain in new places. Everyone has their own reasons for doing it, and it won't be acceptable to everyone. But they have their reasons - if you don't have any reasons or don't feel the need or like it, that's fine. But please be accepting of other people's point of view. While your intention may not have been to attack anyone or make anyone feel bad, you surely must see how people are becoming upset by the way you have stated your view. And to directly answer your question - I am not using the crate to train Peanut, but rather as a personal, safe space for him. I will continue to use it as long as I have him, because it is his very own space and he is safe and feels safe when he is in it. I hope you can understand this point of view, even if you do not agree with it.

05-23-2005, 06:34 PM	#116
Laura Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Wylie TX Posts: 1,577	I have actually enjoyed all the stories this has invoked. I think lickthestar is a very intellegent but young person. My 17 year old son is a genius and has a correction for everything. He is however very unexperienced in life. I did however want to mention if I put him in a cage size relative to zowie's his room would be 24' x 24' - much bigger than his actual room . He also willingly stays there hours on end coming out only for school and if I make him (I am exagerating a little). His bed is there (he does have to let himself out to potty), his toys, tv, computer - all are there for him to enjoy, and occasionally I bring him food. I keep zowie's cage cleaner, too.

05-23-2005, 06:53 PM	#118
lickthestar YT Addict Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NY Posts: 360	It's apparent that this thread has invoked a lot of anger in people, and to prevent this from becoming a personal attack on me or anyone else, I think it's best to stop and not post anymore on this subject. I also think that it's getting off the point. Although some complain that I'm making a big deal out of this, people are continuing to post on the matter, and not always for the right reasons, so let's put a rest to the subject, shall we? On a side note, I'm not THAT young and inexperienced. I also don't believe that I'm correcting anyone in what they're doing, but merely bringing up a topic that, in the long run, has a lot of pros and cons which are useful to consider for new and future yorkie members when they do a search. I enjoyed this exercise of frank discussion and opinions. Let's give ourselves a paws-up.