Titer testing

[Mike_and_Me]

Thanks to YT last year I read about titer testing, which lead me to read articles from Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz's work on this topic. Where we live it's not popular yet and most of vets vaccinate with 5in1 or 7in1 combo vaccines year after year and give rabies vax at a very young age and a lot of times give multiple vaccines at once. After our negative experience with puppy shots I was so lucky to have found a new vet who does things differently. We did rabies vaccine at 6 months old. Then this year we did titer testing for distemper and parvo instead of a booster. Mike has very high immunity against parvo and high immunity against distemper. Vet said that distemper might be showing lower cause dogs don't get in contact with the virus often like parvo so the antibodies might show as high while it's actually very high. For we are ok for min. 3 years, then we re-test and see if he needs a booster. That made me very happy.

We also just did titer testing for rabies antibody to get an international traveling certificate from government which is now required in most countries for traveling. But the certificate is valid for lifetime ONLY if you continue with yearly vaccinations(( Mike's titer came back three times higher than the "norm". Vet says immunity is ok for min. 7 years and possibly for a lifetime but unfortunately titer results are not accepted in lieu of vaccine so the yearly rabies must be given. And 3 year vaccine has not been yet approved here.

I'm quite frustrated the combo yearly vaccinations are still being pushed, that titer testing costs 5 to 10 times more than the vaccine and titer results are not accepted in place of vaccination.

Would love to hear what kind of protocols do you follow to vaccinate your furkids? Do you do titer testing? Do you do rabies yearly or once in 3 years?

[Lovetodream88]

I have been told in my classes and by multiple vets and research articles that titer testing is not what people are thinking it is. We do not know exactly what the numbers mean and you can test one way and not be protected. Puppy boosters that are done a year after the first set whether against over vaccinations or not are EXTREMELY important and not the ones to skip. There is also a huge deference in over vaccinating and not vaccinating enough. DAP (distemper and Parvovirus) every year after one year puppy boosters is to much and should be every 3 to 5 years. Rabies after one year puppy booster is every 3 years but they are doing research to push it to 5 years. The yearly vaccines I do are boratella which is kennel cough, Lyme which is a pretty big issues where I live, the dog flu and the dog flu shot. Due to Callie having Cushings which effects her immune system I have to talk to the internist when we go back for a recheck. I am absolutely not a fan of Dr.Dodds and think some of the stuff they put out is actually dangerous and you have to keep in mind they are trying to sell their products. Natural stuff and going natural can sometimes be more dangerous then helpful. I’m a huge fan of if there is a vaccine that can at least minimize the effects of something I will do it. I get my flu shot every year and I even got the pneumonia shot and my mom vaccinated me as a child and I even got the HPV shot.

[Mike_and_Me]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

There is also a huge deference in over vaccinating and not vaccinating enough. DAP (distemper and Parvovirus) every year after one year puppy boosters is to much and should be every 3 to 5 years. Rabies after one year puppy booster is every 3 years but they are doing research to push it to 5 years.

Isn't the research on titer testing pushed AAHA to update their guidelines from yearly to now every 3 years for core vaccines? I'm not an advocate for under vaccination for both animals and humans, but I think its great that those who don't want to vaccinate every year (based on reading about serology tests and research done in the last 10 years) now have this choice to not to. And those who believe in vaccinating every year can continue to do so.

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

Natural stuff and going natural can sometimes be more dangerous then helpful. I’m a huge fan of if there is a vaccine that can at least minimize the effects of something I will do it. I get my flu shot every year and I even got the pneumonia shot and my mom vaccinated me as a child and I even got the HPV shot.

I don't think that doing titer testing and giving booster for core vaccines every 3rd year instead of every year means going natural?

I never got flu shots as child or adult because let's say a flu shot you get in 2019 is based on a flu strain of 2016 and it seems pointless because several new flu strains appear every year, so the shot can not protect you of what's coming. But then again, we should have a choice whether to do it or not to do. I get that it's different with dogs and especially with rabies vaccination, but it's thanks to research and titer testing they are considering approving the 3 year rabies vaccine here. If I know my dog's protected against it after only one shot, but we have to do it by law I'd rather prefer doing it every 3rd year instead of every year.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Mike_and_Me

Isn't the research on titer testing pushed AAHA to update their guidelines from yearly to now every 3 years for core vaccines? I'm not an advocate for under vaccination for both animals and humans, but I think its great that those who don't want to vaccinate every year (based on reading about serology tests and research done in the last 10 years) now have this choice to not to. And those who believe in vaccinating every year can continue to do so.



I don't think that doing titer testing and giving booster for core vaccines every 3rd year instead of every year means going natural?

I never got flu shots as child or adult because let's say a flu shot you get in 2019 is based on a flu strain of 2016 and it seems pointless because several new flu strains appear every year, so the shot can not protect you of what's coming. But then again, we should have a choice whether to do it or not to do. I get that it's different with dogs and especially with rabies vaccination, but it's thanks to research and titer testing they are considering approving the 3 year rabies vaccine here. If I know my dog's protected against it after only one shot, but we have to do it by law I'd rather prefer doing it every 3rd year instead of every year.

Titer testing is not what made them change when we give shots. Right now it’s a false since of security with titer testing. And actually the one year boosters (the ones a year after puppy shots) are extremely important in building the immunity. Even those who don’t want to vaccinate anymore always get the one year puppy booster because it is significant in the process. I do think every year on the core vaccines is to much minus the puppy boosters. Titer are just not 100% and don’t show the full picture your dog could show high immunity to say parvo but still not be protected from it. I know the thought of titers sounds great but the research just isn’t there yet. Sadly a lot of even states over here require rabies every year which is crazy. I’m hopeful on the study that will show it’s good for 5 years. Even if the glue shot is off by the strains it will still lesson the symptoms. I have had the flu and the real flu not the I have a cold so I’m going to call it the flu and almost killed me so if there is anything I can do to possibly prevent that I will.

[Mike_and_Me]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

And actually the one year boosters (the ones a year after puppy shots) are extremely important in building the immunity. Even those who don’t want to vaccinate anymore always get the one year puppy booster because it is significant in the process.

Everything I read says 1 year booster or titer. If titer is high - sufficient immune response had been achieved during the puppy shots series. If titer is borderline low or non existent - booster then titer in 3 years. That's what my vet confirmed too. I'm not arguing with you, of course, just curious on how information on this varies from source to source.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Mike_and_Me

Everything I read says 1 year booster or titer. If titer is high - sufficient immune response had been achieved during the puppy shots series. If titer is borderline low or non existent - booster then titer in 3 years. That's what my vet confirmed too. I'm not arguing with you, of course, just curious on how information on this varies from source to source.

The issue is that not everything that is out there is true you have to be careful who is writing the articles to make sure they have no interest is what they are saying like selling products or so on. Kinda like a raw pet food company is who came out with the "documentary" trashing dry dog food. Skeptvet is an awesome place to read information. Antibody Titer Testing as a Guide for Vaccination in Dogs and Cats | I know that article is long but its pretty good.

[Mike_and_Me]

Thank you for the link, I read this article last year as well as some others on Skeptvet about dog nutrition. The article doesnt say anything about one year booster being extremely important to building immunity, but gives a good explanation of difference between humoral and cell immunity and why titer testing does not give a conclusive answer on whether the dog is truly immune to a disease with both high and low titers. However, I went in the comment section now and this is what skeptvet wrote in response to one of the comments.

So as far as making decisions for your own individual dog, there is no way to be 100% certain that he or she is protected and doesn’t need a booster vaccination. High titers are a very good indicator that a vaccine is not necessary. Likewise, the recommended booster intervals are reliable for the vast majority of dogs (the same is true for humans, which is why we rarely have titers for the many things we get vaccinated against). Doing a titer annually or at some point earlier than the recommended booster interval could have several outcomes:
1. High titer- Your dog is almost certainly protected, and no vaccine is needed. Doing this test was probably unnecessary, but harmless and perhaps it reassures you.
2. Low titer- Your dog is likely protected since we’re within the recommended interval for boosters, but the test doesn’t tell us one way or another. You can choose to vaccinate, which is unlikely to do harm and which may or may not add protection (there really is no way to know). Or you could choose not to vaccinate, though again there is no other way to know if your dog is at risk. Or, there is a very tiny chance your dog could have low titers because it is a non-responder who doesn’t get protection from vaccination. In this case, vaccination won’t help directly, but again there is no way to confirm this with certainty.


and this

So given this evidence, I generally recommend an initial series for CDV and CPV, then boosters at 5-year intervals until about 10 years of age. That means, for most dogs 2-3 booster vaccinations. Most vets now boost every three years, so that might mean 4-5 boosters, depending on how long the dogs live and if they stop vaccinating at some point.

If we titer test annually (because we can’t predict from one test when the antibody levels will decline), then we might choose to skip some or all of these boosters for animals with high titers. This would be fairly safe, though the test does actually have a fairly high false positive rate, so depending on how many dogs in our test population have low titers, a fair number of them could mistakenly test as if they had high titers.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Mike_and_Me

Thank you for the link, I read this article last year as well as some others on Skeptvet about dog nutrition. The article doesnt say anything about one year booster being extremely important to building immunity, but gives a good explanation of difference between humoral and cell immunity and why titer testing does not give a conclusive answer on whether the dog is truly immune to a disease with both high and low titers. However, I went in the comment section now and this is what skeptvet wrote in response to one of the comments.

So as far as making decisions for your own individual dog, there is no way to be 100% certain that he or she is protected and doesn’t need a booster vaccination. High titers are a very good indicator that a vaccine is not necessary. Likewise, the recommended booster intervals are reliable for the vast majority of dogs (the same is true for humans, which is why we rarely have titers for the many things we get vaccinated against). Doing a titer annually or at some point earlier than the recommended booster interval could have several outcomes:
1. High titer- Your dog is almost certainly protected, and no vaccine is needed. Doing this test was probably unnecessary, but harmless and perhaps it reassures you.
2. Low titer- Your dog is likely protected since we’re within the recommended interval for boosters, but the test doesn’t tell us one way or another. You can choose to vaccinate, which is unlikely to do harm and which may or may not add protection (there really is no way to know). Or you could choose not to vaccinate, though again there is no other way to know if your dog is at risk. Or, there is a very tiny chance your dog could have low titers because it is a non-responder who doesn’t get protection from vaccination. In this case, vaccination won’t help directly, but again there is no way to confirm this with certainty.


and this

So given this evidence, I generally recommend an initial series for CDV and CPV, then boosters at 5-year intervals until about 10 years of age. That means, for most dogs 2-3 booster vaccinations. Most vets now boost every three years, so that might mean 4-5 boosters, depending on how long the dogs live and if they stop vaccinating at some point.

If we titer test annually (because we can’t predict from one test when the antibody levels will decline), then we might choose to skip some or all of these boosters for animals with high titers. This would be fairly safe, though the test does actually have a fairly high false positive rate, so depending on how many dogs in our test population have low titers, a fair number of them could mistakenly test as if they had high titers.

My dogs go to a lot of dog stuff and with 4 it would be very expensive. It’s very safe to do DAP every 3 years and rabies every 3 years and then my yearly vaccines which titers don’t work for. Here in the US it’s the law to have rabies some states it’s every year but most are every 3 years and a titer isn’t usable. You can get a medical exemption in some states for rabies but not because of a titer anyway. So the only thing this would be useful for in the US is DAP. With DAP being very safe for every 3 to 5 years honestly it’s more cost effective to just get it. With my pack and Callie having a lower immune system the dog flu shot and bordatella are very important to keep her from getting anything that could effect her respiratory system. The flu can be very dangerous in older dogs or dogs with low immune system. Kennel cough even in a healthy dog can cause them to have to go on multiple antibiotics for over a month which can cause antibiotic resistance. Even if it doesn’t have every strain of kennel cough just like our flu shot it still lessens the symptoms. Lyme is very serious here and after hearing about several dogs who got Lyme and then their renal system shutting down and causing death I won’t play with that. One of my trainers locations is also on a farm. I have to be honest I enjoy having a conversation with you about this rather then like an aggressive argument sometimes things get heated lol I honestly can’t find the research I have been looking for about Cushings dogs and whether to vaccinate or not. Life tells me when you have a weakened immune system that you need the protection but I just do t know. I’m going to talk to the internist Monday and even my regular vet. I’m in a group where the people say it’s bad but can’t site anything with it.

[Yorktowny]

Originally Posted by Mike_and_Me

Thanks to YT last year I read about titer testing, which lead me to read articles from Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz's work on this topic. Where we live it's not popular yet and most of vets vaccinate with 5in1 or 7in1 combo vaccines year after year and give rabies vax at a very young age and a lot of times give multiple vaccines at once. After our negative experience with puppy shots I was so lucky to have found a new vet who does things differently. We did rabies vaccine at 6 months old. Then this year we did titer testing for distemper and parvo instead of a booster. Mike has very high immunity against parvo and high immunity against distemper. Vet said that distemper might be showing lower cause dogs don't get in contact with the virus often like parvo so the antibodies might show as high while it's actually very high. For we are ok for min. 3 years, then we re-test and see if he needs a booster. That made me very happy.

We also just did titer testing for rabies antibody to get an international traveling certificate from government which is now required in most countries for traveling. But the certificate is valid for lifetime ONLY if you continue with yearly vaccinations(( Mike's titer came back three times higher than the "norm". Vet says immunity is ok for min. 7 years and possibly for a lifetime but unfortunately titer results are not accepted in lieu of vaccine so the yearly rabies must be given. And 3 year vaccine has not been yet approved here.

I'm quite frustrated the combo yearly vaccinations are still being pushed, that titer testing costs 5 to 10 times more than the vaccine and titer results are not accepted in place of vaccination.

Would love to hear what kind of protocols do you follow to vaccinate your furkids? Do you do titer testing? Do you do rabies yearly or once in 3 years?

Wow, you really love your babies by doing all this reaserch!! I think its wondeflu!!!

My thoughts (not expert by any means!!) are that vaccines are good and why not do them if they are cheaper since they are so safe? I think the same for human babies!!!

[Mike_and_Me]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

My dogs go to a lot of dog stuff and with 4 it would be very expensive. It’s very safe to do DAP every 3 years and rabies

Yes, I see how in your situation titer would not be a good option due to costs especially if you are already on the 3 year plan for all core vaccines. But for instance you could be using it for Callie only if you vaccinate her with DAP to check before next vaccine whether she really needs one, due to her immune system less stress for the body is better as I understand?

However I'm repeating myself sorry, but where we are, where DHPPi+L+CV + bordetella + lyme are given on a yearly basis to most dogs it's a HUGE deal for us to be able to go from all that to no vaccine for the next 3 years, except for rabies all thank to this testing.

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I have to be honest I enjoy having a conversation with you about this rather then like an aggressive argument

Things get heated when people come here to blow off steam lol I try to stay away from such threads. I come here for discussion, self education and with a hope to contribute

[Mike_and_Me]

Originally Posted by Yorktowny

Wow, you really love your babies by doing all this reaserch!! I think its wondeflu!!!

My thoughts (not expert by any means!!) are that vaccines are good and why not do them if they are cheaper since they are so safe? I think the same for human babies!!!

I think that both under- and over vaccinating is equally bad. They say even medicine in large amounts can be a poison. Our first vet when Mike was a puppy bluntly lied to me that DHPP without Lepto was not available in Turkey and even when I asked her to call and ask and find out if she can bring it for us per order she lied again and so we went with an unnessecary vaccine which Mike had a bad reaction to. He also developed a skin allergy (which I'm mostly sure was due to vaccine) and it took months and lots of $ to clear it up. This pushed me to educate myself on options and a safer vaccination plan.

As for the cost - lets say without this test I would be doing the yearly vaccine/booster but because the test is positive we can do next booster only 3 years later, so it kind of justifies the cost, if you think of it.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Mike_and_Me

Yes, I see how in your situation titer would not be a good option due to costs especially if you are already on the 3 year plan for all core vaccines. But for instance you could be using it for Callie only if you vaccinate her with DAP to check before next vaccine whether she really needs one, due to her immune system less stress for the body is better as I understand?

However I'm repeating myself sorry, but where we are, where DHPPi+L+CV + bordetella + lyme are given on a yearly basis to most dogs it's a HUGE deal for us to be able to go from all that to no vaccine for the next 3 years, except for rabies all thank to this testing.



Things get heated when people come here to blow off steam lol I try to stay away from such threads. I come here for discussion, self education and with a hope to contribute

The yearly vaccines like Bordatella and Lyme can’t be titered because they are short lived immunity’s that’s what the articles says. So they have to be given yearly. I may not do DAP with Callie again in general even without testing. I hope my vet and vet internist can shed more light on the Cushings vs vaccine thing. The issues with the research for the titer testing is disturbing to me because they have to test on animals. I wish science would evolve from animal testing and not just for this but for everything really.

[matese]

My vet stopped giving my Matese distemper vaccine when she was 12 years old, Matese also had Cushings when she became 8 years old. Distemper was stopped because my vet said at her age she didn't need it anymore, it had nothing to do with Cushings.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by matese

My vet stopped giving my Matese distemper vaccine when she was 12 years old, Matese also had Cushings when she became 8 years old. Distemper was stopped because my vet said at her age she didn't need it anymore, it had nothing to do with Cushings.

I’m part of a Cushings group on Facebook where lots of people say Cushings dogs shouldn’t be vaccinated but their only response to why is that their immune systems are compromised but have nothing to back it up. One of the things the internist we are seeing specializes in is Cushings so hoping she can give me some informative information of whether I should or not. If not my state does do rabies exemptions and she is due for that this spring. But I still take her to pet events so I don’t want her at risk of catching anything.

[matese]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I’m part of a Cushings group on Facebook where lots of people say Cushings dogs shouldn’t be vaccinated but their only response to why is that their immune systems are compromised but have nothing to back it up. One of the things the internist we are seeing specializes in is Cushings so hoping she can give me some informative information of whether I should or not. If not my state does do rabies exemptions and she is due for that this spring. But I still take her to pet events so I don’t want her at risk of catching anything.

You're caught between a rock and a hard place. Hope your Cushings specialist can give you some positive information. Matese always got the rabies vaccine, she was 17 years old when she had to leave me in 2013.