Needing advice.. is this behaviour normal?!

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Larry92

I understand what you are saying and it honestly sounds like I have no compassion, this couldn't be further from the case. Maybe I have put my words wrong but I was honestly just trying to fit everything into a paragraph without going on for years! lol. I do love and care for him, and I understand what you are saying about the unwanted behaviours coming from my b/f but he has never been treated wrongly or without love and we have tried to give him leadership but that's one of the problems as he is so unresponsive. He has been to puppy training classes which they couldn't seem to understand why he wouldn't respond even to them. He has been checked over by the vet and his health is perfectly fine. I just wanted some advice in general from other yorkies owners about his over all behaviour as I don't think it's normal and we are running out of options with him. As you say I am unmotivated to assist, I'm not sure how you have come to this conclusion as I am posting on here to try and assist and have been the whole time they have had him and his behaviour was worse when they got him. I personally have my own dogs at home and they are perfectly well behaved but anything I did with them as puppies has not seemed to work on jake so we are now at a complete loss of what to do

Your sure he can hear and see ok?

[Lovetodream88]

Was he abused before you got him?

[gemy]

Is his behaviour normal? The answer is NO. A happy, healthy, well trained Yorkie does not behave in this way at all.


To be honest when behaviour changes(as you seemed to indicate) even if it is a gradual worsening over time, the first go to, is health changes in your Yorkie. If that exam was very recent the last 2months or so, then fine, rule outs have been done - and I hope you have checked his thyroid levels through an expanded blood panel for thyroid. Thyroid disease can cause behaviour changes..


It sounds like you live in a rather full household? Small children in the household as well? Have you and all home members discipline him consistently for wrong doing, and with a similar method? Have you never actually taught your dog to come? Did he ever have a reliable come?
Before the biting began, was he snarling and growling in a serious manner? How much exercise does he get? At least 30 minutes of vigorous exercise per day? What other engaging activities is done with this dog?


But for this dog and for all the behaviours being manifested, I think a good behaviourist is your next step.

[Jkpal]

It has different people in the house all the time and its behaviour with them is strange and unpredictable and it barks constantly.. pretty much all day even if there is someone in the house it chooses to sit and bark alllll day.
Could all these different people be part of the problem? How do they treat him? Does he have consistency insofar as how he's called; what is and isn't ok? I recently had work done in my home and for several days three really nice gentlemen were in and out constantly. Piper just finally couldn't take it and she became somewhat aggressive, barking and even once lunging at (wouldn't ya know it?!) my landlord; I had her in my arms at the time, but these behaviors were very out of character for Piper. After we got our house back, Piper, too, returned to her sweetest lil' self. Maybe Jake is be over-stimulated or teased or is simply confused at all he's being subjected to...? Could you find a quiet, off-limits-to-everyone-but-you, place for him in order that he has quiet and calm?

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Jkpal

It has different people in the house all the time and its behaviour with them is strange and unpredictable and it barks constantly.. pretty much all day even if there is someone in the house it chooses to sit and bark alllll day.
Could all these different people be part of the problem? How do they treat him? Does he have consistency insofar as how he's called; what is and isn't ok? I recently had work done in my home and for several days three really nice gentlemen were in and out constantly. Piper just finally couldn't take it and she became somewhat aggressive, barking and even once lunging at (wouldn't ya know it?!) my landlord; I had her in my arms at the time, but these behaviors were very out of character for Piper. After we got our house back, Piper, too, returned to her sweetest lil' self. Maybe Jake is be over-stimulated or teased or is simply confused at all he's being subjected to...? Could you find a quiet, off-limits-to-everyone-but-you, place for him in order that he has quiet and calm?

I wanted to highlight this as your dog (while the behaviour was not ideal) showed a progression of re-action that a sound and balanced dog will show. Barking go away barking, growling to snarling (ie you are seeing the lips curled up and a show of teeth), lunging at and finally nipping progression to full fledge bite.

[Jkpal]

Thank you and I am so proud of Piper's nice disposition, her patience and her willingness to "try" new situations. After days of loud pounding, shattering sawing, non-stop in/out of workers...I was ready to take a chomp outa something! Ahhh, so enjoy having our quiet little home back (with a much nicer kitchen) !

[joyce evans]

For the most part this behavior is not normal. I have a barker and I observe her closely to see what she's barking about. Other than the knock on the door she is usually trying to tell us something. Most times she wants something like a snack, wants one of the other dogs to get off of her bed or let go of her toys. She is very vocal. If not a health issue then the pooping on the couch could be that this dog is upset about something and acting out or the smell from a previous poo is still present making the dog think it's ok to go there. Dogs will nip or bite when threatened or irritated. Not all of them love to be cuddled and kissed on. You might try ignoring him so to speak and let it be more of his idea to come to you for attention and see if that changes anything. These guys hate being ignored so worth a try. If he nips back away from him until he approaches you with love and respect. Don't force it. It sounds like he is ruling the household and unfortunately because these dogs are so cute and so small it's easy to let them get by with so much but not a good idea. He may also be getting to many different commands from too many people thus confusing him. I agree with everyone else about taking him to a behaviorist or even better letting one go to your boy friends house to observe. Most of the time it is us humans that cause the problems without even realizing it. For instance the way you respond to his actions might be contributing instead of helping. These pups are way smarter than we think so he may just have everyone fooled! My little girl had a problem coming to me on command but I realized that a lot of the time it was because I had just gotten dressed to go somewhere and she knew it was kennel time. I started giving treats and toys and also give come commands for way more fun things like playtime, tummy rubs ...it made a big difference.

[Larry92]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

He is a living being not an it. I'm guessing because your refering to him as it that there is no bond between you and I'm sure he knows that. It sounds maybe like lack or training more then anything.

Not being rude but if you read the above posts then you can see why I put JAKE across as an it, and if you had bothered to read it then you would have seen that I meant no harm by it so stop posting being rude by saying I don't have a bond with him because that was not the case at all until he started biting (kind of hard to be close to something that bites you.. just saying) I now try my best to stay out of his way. And to answer you other questions YES he was trained (again read previous posts) and no he was not abused in anyway at all before we got him. And YES I'm positively sure he can see and hear ok, unless your a vet and want to give him a diagnosis?


For people asking if he walked, yes he's walked 3-4 times a day and no the household isn't as busy as it sounds we live in a 6 bedroomed house but only 5 people live there so he has plenty of space to run around and has a huge garden and has a hallway with the utility room at the bottom with 2 beds in for him which is where he likes to go for quiet time- JKPAL hope this answers your question about quiet time? and GEMY - no there is no small children. His last vet check was last month and his has had two prior to that with his blood done and everything to check everything ok and all came back perfectly fine. He is played with constantly (he loves squeaky toys) and as I said before YES he was actually trained to come but it has never worked (jake is very stubborn) he never really snarled but growling I would say yes but very very rarely- the biting was completely unprovoked and out of the blue for him.


He was always fine with people, always has been really until recently (after his biting incidents) and its not different people who come round its just friends of the family and other family members.

[Larry92]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

Apologies, I did not mean to imply that you lacked compassion but sometimes when we are frustrated our sight on the end goal means we avert our focus from how to attain it, if you know what I mean!


Obviously, you care. Otherwise, you wouldn't have bothered to come here for advice. Perhaps, patience would have been a better word over compassion?


Yorkies are notorious for being finicky eaters especially if they are ever given table food. Has this been the case?


Again, although you state numerous things the dog does to misbehave, you do not give any info re: what you do as far as correction. Can you elaborate and I'm sure that others here on YT will be able to help you all with advice.

He has never been given table food as that's my b/fs dads pet hate and we were advised by the vet when we first got him not to start that as it would just create the problem of begging. Saying that when he climbs on the work surfaces in the kitchen he helps himself to whatever is there i.e the left over ham and turkey from Christmas!
When he behaves badly or does something wrong when he first starts doing it he is told no firmly.. he then continues to do it and is told off (louder firmer voice) and removed from the situation. With the pooing on the sofa/beds we do try to stop this by shutting the lounge door or the bedroom doors upstairs but he's so small that sometimes you don't realise he snuck past you and done it so after you have found him it is too late! But still he is taken back to the scene of the crime (advised by the trainer) and told off then put in his hallway for half an hour with the door to the garden open. We've tried tempting him with food to come to call but that doesn't work, he's not remotely intrested, we've tried tempting him with toys and that still doesn't work and we've tried ignoring him (suggested by trainer) and that just makes him bark louder for attention. Hope this answers all your questions

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by Larry92

He has never been given table food as that's my b/fs dads pet hate and we were advised by the vet when we first got him not to start that as it would just create the problem of begging. Saying that when he climbs on the work surfaces in the kitchen he helps himself to whatever is there i.e the left over ham and turkey from Christmas!
When he behaves badly or does something wrong when he first starts doing it he is told no firmly.. he then continues to do it and is told off (louder firmer voice) and removed from the situation. With the pooing on the sofa/beds we do try to stop this by shutting the lounge door or the bedroom doors upstairs but he's so small that sometimes you don't realise he snuck past you and done it so after you have found him it is too late! But still he is taken back to the scene of the crime (advised by the trainer) and told off then put in his hallway for half an hour with the door to the garden open. We've tried tempting him with food to come to call but that doesn't work, he's not remotely intrested, we've tried tempting him with toys and that still doesn't work and we've tried ignoring him (suggested by trainer) and that just makes him bark louder for attention. Hope this answers all your questions

Telling a dog off after it has gone potty somewhere and you didn't catch it in the act is against any training advice that I have ever come across since 1970s. The current advice is that you must catch the dog in the act and THEN tell it off as they do not understand why you're telling them off afterwards. Their memories, intentions and metacognition is supremely different than a humans. Telling a human child off about something they did in the past, or warning them to not do something in the future, works because of the way our minds have evolved. This is not true for dogs. Therefore, that is the first error and I would suggest that when someone can't be with the dog, supervising him just as if he were a puppy, then he be tethered to someone on a leash. When the house is empty, the dog should either be put in an exercise pen or a crate. For a crate, time should be limited to no more than six hours. When everyone is home, the dog (tethered or not) should be taken to the appropriate potty spot every 2 hours and access to the room where he goes where he is not supposed to go should be taken away either by closing doors or using a gate.


When he climbs up to the work surface (again, he would not do this if he were supervised so that is the first call you should make), he should be told DOWN and you will probably need to pick him up and put him down for the first few times so he understands what that word means if he doesn't already. When he is DOWN you should give him a very nice treat which trumps the taste of chicken or turkey so that he understands there is a nicer award than the turkey he's after.


It's good that he is given a firm NO when he is doing something that he is not supposed to do but when he stops the behavior he should be rewarded not punished by ostracism in my opinion. I'm not sure what the rationale is behind giving a dog a time out on his own. This may work for hyper behavior but not for training him in general. Again, he's not a child so time out is not going to work as he will not understand why he's been sent away.


POSITIVE reinforcement is key. I work in neuropsychology and can give you access to all sorts of animal studies whereby it is consistently shown that PUNISHMENT is not effective for learning but positive reinforcement is, i.e. treats when behaved, petting, or just saying "Good dog" in a nice voice.


As far as recall, or the dog coming to you, I am not sure that is something that you can achieve until the right discipline above has been managed appropriately and a stronger bond, which will result from training, has developed. I am very close to my dog and he doesn't come to me when called all the time even though he is over 1 year old. I'm sure this part of his behavior wouldn't bother you as much, though, if you managed to overcome some of the above issues.

[Larry92]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

Telling a dog off after it has gone potty somewhere and you didn't catch it in the act is against any training advice that I have ever come across since 1970s. The current advice is that you must catch the dog in the act and THEN tell it off as they do not understand why you're telling them off afterwards. Their memories, intentions and metacognition is supremely different than a humans. Telling a human child off about something they did in the past, or warning them to not do something in the future, works because of the way our minds have evolved. This is not true for dogs. Therefore, that is the first error and I would suggest that when someone can't be with the dog, supervising him just as if he were a puppy, then he be tethered to someone on a leash. When the house is empty, the dog should either be put in an exercise pen or a crate. For a crate, time should be limited to no more than six hours. When everyone is home, the dog (tethered or not) should be taken to the appropriate potty spot every 2 hours and access to the room where he goes where he is not supposed to go should be taken away either by closing doors or using a gate.


When he climbs up to the work surface (again, he would not do this if he were supervised so that is the first call you should make), he should be told DOWN and you will probably need to pick him up and put him down for the first few times so he understands what that word means if he doesn't already. When he is DOWN you should give him a very nice treat which trumps the taste of chicken or turkey so that he understands there is a nicer award than the turkey he's after.


It's good that he is given a firm NO when he is doing something that he is not supposed to do but when he stops the behavior he should be rewarded not punished by ostracism in my opinion. I'm not sure what the rationale is behind giving a dog a time out on his own. This may work for hyper behavior but not for training him in general. Again, he's not a child so time out is not going to work as he will not understand why he's been sent away.


POSITIVE reinforcement is key. I work in neuropsychology and can give you access to all sorts of animal studies whereby it is consistently shown that PUNISHMENT is not effective for learning but positive reinforcement is, i.e. treats when behaved, petting, or just saying "Good dog" in a nice voice.


As far as recall, or the dog coming to you, I am not sure that is something that you can achieve until the right discipline above has been managed appropriately and a stronger bond, which will result from training, has developed. I am very close to my dog and he doesn't come to me when called all the time even though he is over 1 year old. I'm sure this part of his behavior wouldn't bother you as much, though, if you managed to overcome some of the above issues.

I understand completely what you are saying about him being supervised all the time but at the same time aren't dogs meant to enrich our lives? I'm not sure how having him on a leash all day in the house is going to gain anything from him or is a practical way of dealing with the situation. Dogs cannot be supervised at ALL times, be it yes most of the time, but not ALL the time as that just isn't realistic. Yes granddad is in most of the time and he keeps the dog in the same room as him when he is there but sometimes you've got to pop out. He is always taken to go to the toilet (even though he now refuses to go outside for one) but he is still taken out. It's as if he has gone back in his behaviour to when he was a puppy even though nothing in his life has changed or has any reason to make him stressed, he lives like a king and has more room to play than any dog would want or need.
When we find him on the work surface we don't have time to say down and as soon as he see's us he's off there quicker than anything.
He gets positive reinforcement constantly when he does something good (which is not very often ) but he does do sit so he is always rewarded after doing that or at the moment if he wees outside he's getting fussed which he does love. He's a naturally needy dog but he is just so stubborn that's the problem,, he will come to you if he wants too for cuddles but if you call him over or ask him to move he will not do it for love nor money lol.

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by Larry92

I understand completely what you are saying about him being supervised all the time but at the same time aren't dogs meant to enrich our lives? I'm not sure how having him on a leash all day in the house is going to gain anything from him or is a practical way of dealing with the situation. Dogs cannot be supervised at ALL times, be it yes most of the time, but not ALL the time as that just isn't realistic. Yes granddad is in most of the time and he keeps the dog in the same room as him when he is there but sometimes you've got to pop out. He is always taken to go to the toilet (even though he now refuses to go outside for one) but he is still taken out. It's as if he has gone back in his behaviour to when he was a puppy even though nothing in his life has changed or has any reason to make him stressed, he lives like a king and has more room to play than any dog would want or need.
When we find him on the work surface we don't have time to say down and as soon as he see's us he's off there quicker than anything.
He gets positive reinforcement constantly when he does something good (which is not very often ) but he does do sit so he is always rewarded after doing that or at the moment if he wees outside he's getting fussed which he does love. He's a naturally needy dog but he is just so stubborn that's the problem,, he will come to you if he wants too for cuddles but if you call him over or ask him to move he will not do it for love nor money lol.

You make a good point about dogs enriching our lives but, if you're honest, would you say you feel this dog is currently enriching your life with the current behavior? Once all of that is put in check, the lessons will be lifelong. You only have to be strict for a few weeks or months, depending on how long it takes for you to teach and the dog to learn, then you never have to worry about it again. My dog is currently tethered to me all day because he's marking in the house. I consider training him to be enriching for his life and enriching for mine since I don't have to worry about him peeing on my stuff and I know this is only temporary until the behavior is corrected



Spoiling him or giving him freedom which hasn't been earned doesn't make for a good dog or a happy life. If you continue all of your current behaviors, then how is anything going to change?


I've said before, a stubborn dog is a smart dog...but it sounds like he's quite a bit smarter than most if he is getting to misbehave and still getting his way. Do you think this is his fault or someone elses


You must be a firm, loving parent to this dog before you can live a life together as friends. It's your responsibility to this dog so you are doing nothing wrong by teaching him how to behave in a human home. However, you are doing everything wrong by not teaching him and then blaming him or his personality for the behavior.

[Larry92]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

You make a good point about dogs enriching our lives but, if you're honest, would you say you feel this dog is currently enriching your life with the current behavior? Once all of that is put in check, the lessons will be lifelong. You only have to be strict for a few weeks or months, depending on how long it takes for you to teach and the dog to learn, then you never have to worry about it again. My dog is currently tethered to me all day because he's marking in the house. I consider training him to be enriching for his life and enriching for mine since I don't have to worry about him peeing on my stuff and I know this is only temporary until the behavior is corrected



Spoiling him or giving him freedom which hasn't been earned doesn't make for a good dog or a happy life. If you continue all of your current behaviors, then how is anything going to change?


I've said before, a stubborn dog is a smart dog...but it sounds like he's quite a bit smarter than most if he is getting to misbehave and still getting his way. Do you think this is his fault or someone elses


You must be a firm, loving parent to this dog before you can live a life together as friends. It's your responsibility to this dog so you are doing nothing wrong by teaching him how to behave in a human home. However, you are doing everything wrong by not teaching him and then blaming him or his personality for the behavior.

Your right about the the leash, I was just pointing out my concerns but I accept that that may be a way to help him.
But in no way did I say Jake had his own way constantly? I said he lives like a king and has more space to play when he wants to but in no way is he spoiled by us. In the way he lives like a king I meant he has a nice life, toys, food and people to play with him but not when he's naughty at all.
We are not continuing all current behaviours as I've said different things have been done to try and stop him from doing it so we are changing them once we have established they do not work, be it a month or two months we give him a chance to get use to the new change and if it doesn't make a difference we then go back to the drawing board.
I understand that the way his is, is our fault but this isn't just a new thing, he was like this when he came and he was much worse. Where you say we are doing everything wrong by not teaching him and then blaming him for his personality or behaviour, how is that so? I have said from the beginning we have TRIED since day one to correct these things and we are 18 months on and yes he has got better but not the stage where we are living comfortably with him and he is enriching our lives because he's not. Maybe in the end we are just not the people for him and he wont end up living with us, who knows. But I am not a push over with dogs, yes I love them but I believe they should behave in a normal way just like my two do at home, I have never had a problem with them and my family has had dogs all their lives and we have never seen anything like Jake before.

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by Larry92

Your right about the the leash, I was just pointing out my concerns but I accept that that may be a way to help him.
But in no way did I say Jake had his own way constantly? I said he lives like a king and has more space to play when he wants to but in no way is he spoiled by us. In the way he lives like a king I meant he has a nice life, toys, food and people to play with him but not when he's naughty at all.
We are not continuing all current behaviours as I've said different things have been done to try and stop him from doing it so we are changing them once we have established they do not work, be it a month or two months we give him a chance to get use to the new change and if it doesn't make a difference we then go back to the drawing board.
I understand that the way his is, is our fault but this isn't just a new thing, he was like this when he came and he was much worse. Where you say we are doing everything wrong by not teaching him and then blaming him for his personality or behaviour, how is that so? I have said from the beginning we have TRIED since day one to correct these things and we are 18 months on and yes he has got better but not the stage where we are living comfortably with him and he is enriching our lives because he's not. Maybe in the end we are just not the people for him and he wont end up living with us, who knows. But I am not a push over with dogs, yes I love them but I believe they should behave in a normal way just like my two do at home, I have never had a problem with them and my family has had dogs all their lives and we have never seen anything like Jake before.

It's not so much about blame as changing your way of thinking. You are asking that a dog conform to your way of thinking but you are asking the impossible since he is a dog and you are not. Therefore, you have to communicate in a way that the dog understands. If you check my posts, you will see that I went through a lot of what you are talking about when I first got my dog. He never bit me or anyone but had I not been firm with him from the start and sought assistance and admitted to myself that I was not a professional (just a dog owner who wanted my dog to do as I said - when I said - but had no idea how to make this work) then it may very well have progressed to that.


You are not the right people for the dog if you are unable to change the way you think. You are very much the right people for the dog if you are willing to challenge your thinking and your behavior so that your dog can learn. Believe me, I know it is frustrating and that is why I'm trying to help.


I think you all really would benefit from seeking another trainer as the one you've had up til now seems incompetent (or out of touch with new methods at the very least) based on the advice you say you have been given so far.


Not all dogs are the same and some people will attribute human motivation to them i.e. my dog is stubborn and just refuses to learn. But, like humans, dogs learn in different ways just different DOG ways. For example, all children are near enough the same. They have eyes, noses, mouths etc. But, you and I know they don't all act the same and they do not all respond to things in the same way. Some kids will behave if you offer them candy, some toys, some TV and some seem to not behave at all until you TALK to them and find out that they're bothered by something or you've actually been giving them attention only when they misbehave.


Unfortunately, having an intelligent dog means you have to think outside of the box, sometimes. Just because the things you have tried aren't working doesn't mean that nothing will work. You have to consider that you may have tried a lot of wrong things, your expectations were too great, you were not consistent, etc.


Dogs are HARD work and they aren't for everyone. If you love him, keep at it! The work, if it's the RIGHT work, pays off in the end.


If you are really at the end and you can give no more, then find someone who is willing to put the work in.


It's only you who can decide re: if you keep him or not and how much work you're willing to put in.

I'm not making judgment at all, by the way. As I've said, I've been there.

[Larry92]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

It's not so much about blame as changing your way of thinking. You are asking that a dog conform to your way of thinking but you are asking the impossible since he is a dog and you are not. Therefore, you have to communicate in a way that the dog understands. If you check my posts, you will see that I went through a lot of what you are talking about when I first got my dog. He never bit me or anyone but had I not been firm with him from the start and sought assistance and admitted to myself that I was not a professional (just a dog owner who wanted my dog to do as I said - when I said - but had no idea how to make this work) then it may very well have progressed to that.


You are not the right people for the dog if you are unable to change the way you think. You are very much the right people for the dog if you are willing to challenge your thinking and your behavior so that your dog can learn. Believe me, I know it is frustrating and that is why I'm trying to help.


I think you all really would benefit from seeking another trainer as the one you've had up til now seems incompetent (or out of touch with new methods at the very least) based on the advice you say you have been given so far.


Not all dogs are the same and some people will attribute human motivation to them i.e. my dog is stubborn and just refuses to learn. But, like humans, dogs learn in different ways just different DOG ways. For example, all children are near enough the same. They have eyes, noses, mouths etc. But, you and I know they don't all act the same and they do not all respond to things in the same way. Some kids will behave if you offer them candy, some toys, some TV and some seem to not behave at all until you TALK to them and find out that they're bothered by something or you've actually been giving them attention only when they misbehave.


Unfortunately, having an intelligent dog means you have to think outside of the box, sometimes. Just because the things you have tried aren't working doesn't mean that nothing will work. You have to consider that you may have tried a lot of wrong things, your expectations were too great, you were not consistent, etc.


Dogs are HARD work and they aren't for everyone. If you love him, keep at it! The work, if it's the RIGHT work, pays off in the end.


If you are really at the end and you can give no more, then find someone who is willing to put the work in.


It's only you who can decide re: if you keep him or not and how much work you're willing to put in.

I'm not making judgment at all, by the way. As I've said, I've been there.

I know you are trying to help and I am so appreciative I really am. Your advice has been so helpful to me and I don't want you to think I'm getting annoyed because I really am not I just trying to get into a different way of thinking that's all. I suppose it will just be frustration coming out in me.




We do love him so much and getting rid of him is the last thing we want to do


We are trying and I guess that's all we can do. We will seek out a different trainer again and start from scratch. We are tying to change our thinking so much, we really are I suppose it will just take time.