Parti Yorkie vs Biewer

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by NGessner

OK we have the piebald gene!!
We definitely have the unique appearance!!
We have the difference in personalities!!!
So now we are back to the genetic uniformity!!!!!!!
Have you seen the MARS tests themselves??? What was the "data set" you referred to??
If we cannot get together to retest the 3 groups, what is our next best option?

I have been privileged to see a summary report of the MARS data, but not the reports on individual dogs. The "data set" I am referring to is based on the 100 Biewers that were tested.

I have read about some of the conflicts, fights, and misunderstandings between the various groups, and it has had the effect of stifling research in this area (good researchers are afraid to get involved for fear of being caught in the middle of a free-for-all). The groups need to calmly sit down together in a nonthreatening environment and talk in order to heal some of these wounds. THEN good researchers can be brought on board, and all groups of Biewers can be tested under circumstances that are agreeable to all parties. Otherwise, the different groups will continue to go their separate ways, the fighting will continue, and these issues will drag on for much longer than necessary. And if one group finally "wins," the others will feel left out, and to me, that would be tragic. Dog breeders need to present a unified front and work together for the good of the breed.

[luvlee]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Biewers by definition have the white color patches caused by the piebald gene, so that part is taken care of. When MARS created their breed test for the Biewer, they used DNA markers on most, if not all, of the dog chromosomes. Some chromosome segments in the group of 100 Biewers were more like Yorkshire Terrier chromosomes, other chromosome segments were more like other breeds--it was an interesting data set. So yes, they do know which chromosomes are different.

I absolutely agree, it would a fascinating study to do DNA analysis on more groups of Biewers, Partis, and Yorkshire Terriers to see how they are all related, and to see the differences. Hopefully all the different breed groups can get together and make it happen. There is nothing to fear by doing this work, and it will resolve these questions once and for all.

Did the introduction of the piebald gene to the yorkie result in the formation of new chromosomes altogether in the Biewer?

If there are chromosomes that are not present in the yorkie, I think that would be reason enough to find the Biewer to be a whole new breed.

Tracey

[NGessner]

WOW GEMY!! great information!!
OK so maybe we don't have appearance and personality down pat yet-
Definitely need more time and experience.

When you breed Biewer to Biewer you get a Biewer.
The breeders, for the most part, are making progress in improving the breed.
But is this a new era where the dog will be judged by their DNA and their physical attributes ?? Has this breed received so much criticism and resistance that they cannot overcome it??
With what you say GEMY is the DNA and piebald gene mute???

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by luvlee

Did the introduction of the piebald gene to the yorkie result in the formation of new chromosomes altogether in the Biewer?

If there are chromosomes that are not present in the yorkie, I think that would be reason enough to find the Biewer to be a whole new breed.

Tracey

All of the chromosomes are somewhat mixed, with a lot of Yorkshire Terrier DNA on each one as well as some DNA from other breeds, but chromosome 20, carrying the piebald gene, is the chromosome in the Biewer that is least like the chromosome 20 of the Yorkshire Terrier. Genes that are close together on the same chromosome tend to be inherited together--this is called linkage--and that could account for chromosome 20 being so different from the Yorkshire Terrier in the Biewers that were tested. Other genes linked to the piebald gene came along the for the ride during the development of the Biewer.

[luvlee]

Originally Posted by pstinard

All of the chromosomes are somewhat mixed, with a lot of Yorkshire Terrier DNA on each one as well as some DNA from other breeds, but chromosome 20, carrying the piebald gene, is the chromosome in the Biewer that is least like the chromosome 20 of the Yorkshire Terrier. Genes that are close together on the same chromosome tend to be inherited together--this is called linkage--and that could account for chromosome 20 being so different from the Yorkshire Terrier in the Biewers that were tested. Other genes linked to the piebald gene came along the for the ride during the development of the Biewer.

I know the number of chromosomes wouldn't change. If the genetic material is substantially different on chromosome 20 when comparing the Biewer to the Yorkshire terrier, then that satisfies me that the Biewer is a separate breed developed from the Yorkie & ????.

I wish someone would test the Parti too. It would answer a lot of questions.

Thanks for all the informative discussion!

Tracey

[NGessner]

Originally Posted by pstinard

I have been privileged to see a summary report of the MARS data, but not the reports on individual dogs. The "data set" I am referring to is based on the 100 Biewers that were tested.

I have read about some of the conflicts, fights, and misunderstandings between the various groups, and it has had the effect of stifling research in this area (good researchers are afraid to get involved for fear of being caught in the middle of a free-for-all). The groups need to calmly sit down together in a nonthreatening environment and talk in order to heal some of these wounds. THEN good researchers can be brought on board, and all groups of Biewers can be tested under circumstances that are agreeable to all parties. Otherwise, the different groups will continue to go their separate ways, the fighting will continue, and these issues will drag on for much longer than necessary. And if one group finally "wins," the others will feel left out, and to me, that would be tragic. Dog breeders need to present a unified front and work together for the good of the breed.

BOY OH BOY!!! I agree with you 100%-- The fear of letting go of the control
they think they have is a very large step forward. The grudges have got to be set aside. This was tried once before and failed miserably, but that is history. That is the sad part of all this. There are so many people interested in this breed but dislike the ugliness that follow. This is such a wonderful little dog that needs to be shared with the world.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Great explanation! I hope that Biewer breeders and owners can step in and answer the first question: Is the Biewer significantly different in those qualities of size, appearance, temperament, structure, and function? For size, I'll give an answer and say no, since they are roughly the same size as the Yorkshire Terrier, but there are many other distinct breeds that are also same size as the Yorkshire Terrier. How about the other traits mentioned?

The second question, does a single gene make or break a breed? The answer is no, but if breeders are seeing "off types" as defined by breed standards, they should do the utmost possible to remove them from their breeding stock. Otherwise the breed will morph and change to be something different. Would anyone else care to answer?

Biewers have already been recognized as a breed of its own.

How long have you been involved with the breed? just curious.

[msyorktown]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Biewers have already been recognized as a breed of its own.

How long have you been involved with the breed? just curious.

Thanks for that info Deb...I have Jersey my Biewer, I had no idea they were a breed all on their own....can you tell me please, when did that happen?
Also exactly what are they called? I've been calling her a Biewer Terrier. Don't have her pedigree in front of me, so I don't remember what her breeder called her...

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Biewers have already been recognized as a breed of its own.

How long have you been involved with the breed? just curious.

Hi, I know that the Biewer is recognized by many registries--I was referring to the AKC, which doesn't recognize the Biewer. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I don't have any stake in whether Biewers are recognized as a breed by various registries or not (I'm a geneticist, not a breeder), but could a Biewer breeder provide a list of registries that do recognize and don't recognize the Biewer? Thanks!

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by luvlee

I don't know how this thread turned into a heated battle.

The thread was really interesting when it discussed Biewer genetics. This discussion could not be had a few years ago. And we're so fortunate to have some people posting with a genetics background to explain it.

Now, for Biewer breeders, the science behind how the Biewer originated may be irrelevant at this point.

But for me, the average person who's about to adopt a Biewer, I find the information fascinating.

I'd like to know more - but I think WE ALL can be nicer to one another and just agree to disagree....

Tracey

There are long history's here...these threads are not new...amazing how some folks pop out of the woodwork for these threads...look at other posts and threads regarding this and you will see that this has been going on for as long as teacups and teapots has....

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Biewers have already been recognized as a breed of its own.

How long have you been involved with the breed? just curious.

Off topic for a sec...just looked at your site, loveeeeee ittttt!

[I Wuv yorkies]

This thread is very informational!! With some great answers, I LOVE IT! LOL

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by NGessner

BOY OH BOY!!! I agree with you 100%-- The fear of letting go of the control
they think they have is a very large step forward. The grudges have got to be set aside. This was tried once before and failed miserably, but that is history. That is the sad part of all this. There are so many people interested in this breed but dislike the ugliness that follow. This is such a wonderful little dog that needs to be shared with the world.

Everyone, please keep trying! It is well worth it to get past the ugliness and work together to promote the breed for the good of the breed.

[yakkwak]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes a smiley face is just a smiley face.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by yakkwak

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes a smiley face is just a smiley face.

Words of wisdom indeed. In fact, I always assume that a smiley face is just a smiley face, or at least a friendly gesture. It's good for the blood pressure.