Yes...yes...and yesssss...thanks to all....for every contribution. Very fascinating thread. I love it, of course! :D

Yes, that is how they determine their percent accuracy figures (quoted in the articles).

Here is the link to the Parti-Yorkie vs Biewer thread from 2008 that had a discussion of DNA differences between the two:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...vs-biewer.html

The DNA testing technology at that time was not as good as it is today, but the upshot of the DNA part of the discussion was that there is an AKC registered group of Parti-Yorkies that tests as purebred Yorkshire Terriers, whereas a group of Biewers tested in a group by itself and was different from Yorkshire Terriers, hence a discussion of considering Biewer Terriers as a separate breed from Yorkies.

There was also a discussion in that thread of the genes responsible for differences in coat color between Biewers and Parti-Yorkies. The consensus was that the color spotting pattern is different between the two groups (Biewers have a more consistent pattern) and therefore the genes responsible for their coloration are different. I could look into this further and see if there is any more current research to bear this out, but that thread was quite contentious at times, so I'm not sure I should re-open that can of worms.

I was looking at terrier pictures and I noticed something. Yorkies are said to be the cross of a couple types of terriers. Minnie looks like a English Black and Tan Toy Terrier. Hmmmmm. Just a thought

Definitely in the facial features (I did a Google image search). She looks a lot like the puppy photos, but the adults look really different--taller, leaner, and lankier. We'll have to see how Minnie develops. An animal coming out of a breeding program that looks like an ancestral breed is called a "throwback." It could be what we're seeing...

I know yorkies are long haired but I have a short haired one. My vet says she is 100% yorkie. I don't know how she came short haired and don't care cause I love her just the way she is. I have seen her parents and litter mates and they are all long haired. I would love to have another yorkie but am afraid I won't find another like Mia...short haired. [ATTACH]Attachment 388408[/ATTACH]

hope this post works with the pictures...looked funny in the preview...

Thanks for your contribution to the conversation! Those are fascinating photos! Has your short-haired Yorkie ever been to the groomer's or is the slightly longer hair on her head its natural length? How old is she? I hope that Jen continues to post photos of Minnie as she grows. Maybe she will turn out looking the same way.

She's cute! She looks like a red legged Yorkie. Their colors are vibrant and their hair doesn't grow full length.

Some good pics of a red legged here: https://www.facebook.com/gizmoamadeus

Also, a good description from Walnut Hill Yorkies: Red Legged Yorkies are those Yorkies with "wiry" hair that never grows very long. Though, I have seen different degrees of length in these types of coats. Some can grow a coat of about 6 inches, others 2 inches and then everywhere in between. Usually, the hair on the face of a red legged Yorkie grows longer than the hair on his body. The red legs tend to be very dark in color, with deep, rich tans that can appear almost reddish in natural light. Their black is a true black that rarely turns bluish. I have heard that old-time breeders used red legged Yorkies to add color and proper coat texture back in to their lines.

I'm no expert but it may be what you have there is a "red legged" Yorkie. They tend to have shorter fur. You may be able to find some info here on YT about the red legged by doing a YT search. I'm sure you could do a google search and find something.

Gosh I hate how those pictures posted. The one standing is before grooming the sitting one after. She does go to the groomer some where between 8wks or as long as 12 wks. She may be red legged yorkie. Her hair does not grow as long on her body as Gizmo's in the link provided by OwnedByJezebel. It never gets below her belly. She is 4yrs old and 61/2lbs. Her hair is very soft to me but maybe compared to other yorkies not so much? I thought it was so strange how all the others in her family group had long hair....I know you can go back generations and get different traits....I love her just the way she is and thanks for the feedback and compliments. She was a replacement for our son when he went off to college...my husband decided I needed her....he was right.

The results of Bella's MARS Wisdom Panel test are IN!!!
 

And Bella tested out to be purebred Yorkshire Terrier, as expected. Bella was tested under MARS' program to expand their database of Yorkshire Terrier DNA samples. I had to submit Bella's AKC registration and 5 generation pedigree certificate in order to participate, and MARS performed their traditional breed purity analysis to make sure that Bella's sample was kosher. In the PCA analysis, Bella falls smack in the middle of other Yorkshire Terrier DNA samples. Interestingly, the two other most closely related breeds to Bella's specific DNA sample are Saluki and Pug. The Saluki is a primative breed and probably reflects Bella's ancestral roots that are shared with many other dog breeds. The Pug is a toy breed, and probably represents DNA segments that distinguish toy breeds from other dog breeds. In the PCA analysis including Yorkshire Terriers, Salukis, and Pugs, Bella clusters solidly with the Yorkshire Terrier group. Finally Bella's homozygosity (degree of inbreeding) is within the normal range for Yorkshire Terriers. Images of the most important parts of the MARS report are below.

That's great news but I'm guessing it didn't really matter to you. We love our babies no matter what.

No, the actual results didn't matter to me--I would love Bella the same regardless. I mainly wanted to contribute to the database of scientific knowledge.

This is crazy... But here you go. When I had my firstborn, I had a weird kind of postpartum thing going on... I swore they didn't give me the right baby at the hospital.

Her father saw her being born, her grandmother saw them leaving the room with her (there were some complications and they had to stabilize her).. And bringing her back, same baby...
But for about a year and a half, I truly believed they had mixed up babies at the hospital.. This is aside from her looking EXACTLY like me. I just didn't see it.

During that time, I called the Maury show to try to get a DNA test... They actually hung up on me, lol.
I just had to share that, because you just reminded me of my (hilarious now) not the momma issue.
And to this day, when my daughter acts up and I'm told, well you's your kid.. I say.. I have yet to see any DNA tests... It's like a family joke now, lolol.

This was such a fascinating and interesting thread. I still think of Minnie and wonder how she is doing now, and what she looks like.

If Yorkiemommy1984 is still active, I'd love to see an update photo of Minnie, and to know how she is doing. Hope all is well.

Oh, my. This is funny to read now, but I would think it would have been terrible to live through at the time.



I agree. Was thinking about this thread earlier as I replied to hanluem about her tricolor pup. I see she is still active so I posted to her wall asking for an update.

I, too, would love an update! :D

it makes me so happy to know Minnie is still thought of :) I know I have not been on in a little while but with summer vacation and me spending all my free time studying i slacked on here. :( but im back now and cant wait to catch up on all the exciting stuff on here. The newest updates I have is Minnie offically got the all clear of no more demodex about a week ago. Her meds she was on are also finished as of the other day. All her bald spots are gone and her bald dry looking legs are no more hehe. I actually feel and see a difference in her coat as well. I have no idea what shes honestly going to look like in a year from now but we dont even care. We are just happy that shes all better. We also started potty training her and shes offically potty trained and its amazing. Shes one smart pup :) We are all so blessed every day that she came into our lives. We couldnt have asked for anything more. She touches everyone and is full of so much love its truly the best thing :) I posted a few new pics in my album of her semi recently maybe a week or two ago to about a month or two. I also posted one of her at 2 weeks :) it was so cute i couldnt pass it up hehe. thank you all again so much for everything it truly means so much to us all.

Thanks for the update.... yes, we still think of Minnie. I am so happy to hear her skin is clearing up and hope that lots of healthy happy days are ahead for you all.

I just saw the new photos--isn't she a cutie?!?!??? I'm glad that her demodex cleared up and that she is a much happier puppy. Thanks for the update, and we look forward to hearing more about her as she grows up!

I started reading this thread several times a few months ago and finally made myself finish it today. It is a good read with great information. I have been researching MARS and their breed recognition products for a project over the last few years. While I cannot state with any authority that I understand algorithms and the science behind the MARS testing, I do have a better understanding about interpreting their test results and the limitations of the same. On background, MARS did not develop any of the products they sell today as you probably already know. They purchased competitor companies, protocols and the control of licenses and patents that are sold today as the MARS Wisdom Panel products. They do not perform the Wisdom Panel testing. A company in Nebraska performs all the testing, stores the data and provides the test results to the customer. (I know the name of the company but they would not like me if I posted it.) That is just the way MARS conducts their business. It is not unusual or improper in the business world and should not reflect on the quality of their products.

My guess from looking at "absolutely adorable Minnie" its more than likely that she does have another breed(s) however, the breed may not be listed on her results for several reasons. The missing breed may not be in the MARS database therefore cannot be listed. Their goal is to have all AKC recognized breeds in their database but they are not there yet. In some cases, the MARS test results will state a percentage of "Unknown Breed" to note the breed not in their database along with the percentage of known breed(s). Other MARS test results will not include "Unknown Breeds" even though DNA is present. The percentage may be too small to list. Another reason that may explain Minnie's results is the accuracy of the MARS products are 90% at best. A few years ago MARS stated on their website that their accuracy rate was 84%. They have since removed that information. I was able to find some quotes in published articles from their staff claiming 90% accuracy. About a year ago MARS was offered a large project to test hundreds of Norwich terriers. We will save the story behind the Norwich terrier for another day. MARS turned down the project stating the reason was "the MARS test was fallible". This statement and exact wording was made by the MARS representative at the AKC Board of Directors meeting. Fallible was his exact word. He then mentioned that one out of ten tests results would be inaccurate. So it is easy to see why Minnie's results may or may not have all breeds listed and I just listed a few of the reasons.

In the next 5 years MARS will be the only company providing breed recognition and ancestry products to the public. They are buying and controlling every company that offers a breed identification or ancestry product. MARS has staff with the ability to develop these products but they decided to buy all their competitors probably because it is faster and cheaper in the long run.

Here are two fairly recent articles about the MARS company and their test results that you may find interesting.

Dog breed tests: Do they really work? | MNN - Mother Nature Network

Dog breed genetic tests put to the test - VIN

I believe that MARS offers a good service and product but I also believe it has its limitations. I have also witnessed individuals with an agenda or wanting certain test results therefore misleading the public about the capability of the MARS products. Personally, I would only recommend a MARS product to someone interested in acquiring a rescue or shelter dog. That was the original reason MARS went into the DNA Breed Recognition business and it is the best product they offer today. That is mainly due to the customer understanding the results are "fallible" and have limitations. I also understand that some people are just curious about their dog's ancestry and are willing to spend the money. As long as those individuals are aware the product in its present state has limitations then I would recommend their products.

It looks like Minnie is the real winner in all of this discussion. It really does not matter what breed Minnie is other than the OP would have posted on a different forum and we would have all lost out on the dialog, education and fellowship.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...ml#post4329153
New poster today that has a short haired yorkie, proven by dna, that looks just like Minnie! Amazing. I wonder if we are about to start seeing more? Pstinard said the short hair gene is actually dominant...:confused:

I'm happy to hear that all is going well and she is healthy. I was just curious about her coat. Does she shed and is her hair more silky like people hair or is it short and sharper ended like fur in a short haired dog? I was just wondering. I'm glad you love her no matter what. I would just hope she wasn't a shedder if that was one reason you got a yorkie. It was a big reason for me. Before I got to know my first yorkie I had never believed that dogs existed that didn't shed. Once I fell in love with Chloe (son's girlfriend's yorkie) it led us to get Maggie.

The short hair gene is dominant in most breeds, but after seeing the other Yorkie that looks a lot like Minnie, I'm beginning to wonder whether there are some other previously unknown short hair genes floating around in the Yorkie gene pool.

It's more than just the coat type. The white along the bottom of the muzzle, throat and the line across the bottom of the chest, the overall head, ears. The little dog just doesn't remind me of a shorn Yorkie. Looks like a MinPin/Chi/Yorkie mix or something like that.

I see what you mean. I had to take another look at the pictures. I think that the hair that appears white could just be a lighter tan, but it's hard to tell from the photos.

Yes her hair is not white, it is a light tan.

But not a marking pattern that Yorkies have.

Good point. I have more faith than most people in the DNA tests, so I am stumped. If I could see the test results, I might be able to figure out what's going on (for example, is she on the fringe of the Yorkie cluster?).