Thank you! We'll be reading until our eyes are crossed but it'll be fun.

What this means for Minnie...
 

To summarize the articles on dog skull shape, there are about 5 genes that regulate the difference between brachycephalic (short pug-like nose) and dolichocephalic (long collie-like nose). Although Minnie's nose is longer than a typical Yorkie's nose, it's still on the short side, so maybe one or two of the skull shape genes are "off type." Unless Minnie is subjected to thorough DNA testing (which would be prohibitively expensive unless she were part of a university research project on off-type dogs), we'll probably never know. The take-away lesson from these articles for Yorkie breeders is to get an idea of how many genes control each trait, so they can test their breeding stock should tests ever become publicly available, and so they can figure out how easy or difficult it would be to eliminate particular off types from their breeding stock. Enjoy your summer reading!

I feel like I'm intruding on this conversation, so my apologies. I just wanted to comment on how wonderful the thread is. Not only for the information being shared, but for the sheer delight I see in the individual posts. It's like a group of kids getting to go behind the scenes in a candy store, lol.

Although I understand very little of the more nuts and bolts terminology, I recognize the obvious love for this breed and the dedication to trying to preserve the integrity of these wonderful little beings.

Who holds the patent on dog breed identification using DNA analysis?
 

This is very interesting! Who holds the patent on dog breed identification using DNA analysis?

Hint 1: It is not MARS Labs.

Hint 2: It is not a pharmaceutical company.

Still don't know? ;)

Answer: It is researchers at a federally funded research institution, Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :) See link to the patent below:

Patent US7729863 - Methods and materials for canine breed identification - Google Patents

Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center has a second patent application filed for canine breed identificiation using DNA analysis here:

Patent US20110224911 - METHODS AND MATERIALS FOR CANINE BREED IDENTIFICATION - Google Patents

DNA gone wild
 

This has got to be one of the most fascinating threads ever on YorkieTalk. Even tough my eyes and brain fog up trying to read some of the information, I still find myself coming back for more.

I will continue to follow along and enjoy the discussions however I will be looking forward to a future installment called "Doggie DNA for Dummies" with a chapter on "DNA gone wild".

Phil, your passion for genetics is very impressive; thank you for sharing it with us all here.

Thanks! Yes, the information is fascinating :). We will have to distill it down and turn it into a "Sticky" some day. I am very pleased that the most recent research papers are available for FREE viewing! That way, we're not violating copyright laws.

This thread has been the most exciting/enlightening/educating thread I've had the pleasure of reading - all 577 posts. It took several days to catch up between taking care of our injured stallion and playing with my 10 year old grandson. How fascinating to read all of the info on doggie DNA. I do have a question - and this isn't meant to stir the pot or change the direction of this thread.

If I am reading correctly the results of Minnie's DNA test is entirely a result of the Mars testing in which they compared the DNA samples of 10,000 dogs to Minnie's sample. I know 10,000 is a big number, but is it really when we consider all of the different dog breeds and mixes and DNA combinations possible?

Also, how many Yorkies were DNA'd to come up with the Yorkie DNA identification analysis -- and how were the Yorkies samples that were tested proven to be 100% Yorkie?

Knowing that Mars is a "for profit" company I am a bit hesitant to take the results at face value. I know I know, I'm a bit suspicious, just like I am of the dog food comparisons that are "owned by the dog food company that comes out on top.

Some time back there was a long thread about Mars testing in a Beiwer vs Parti Yorkie vs Yorkie discussion. That one got rather heated and I certainly don't want to visit that again, but after reading through that long thread and reading some of the Mars site, I kinda doubted the validity of the testing. Anywho, with that thread we didn't have a genetic expert on board to help explain all the ins and outs.

Oki, I'm done - I hope I didn't offend, I'm not even trying to be a devil's advocate and look at the flip side, I honestly want to know when and how to believe test result.

No offense taken! I sent an email to MARS Labs asking how many Yorkies were in their DNA database, and how they were certified as purebred. They replied that they had a little over 300 Yorkies in their database. The US ones were all AKC registered with pedigrees. The Canadian dogs were all Canadian Kennel Club dogs with pedigrees. The European ones were certified by the European clubs.

I think that the quality of dogs in their database is good, but they really need to add more Yorkie DNA samples to their database.

Here's a bit of interesting information about the MARS parent company:

Mars brands include: Petcare -- PEDIGREE(R) , ROYAL CANIN(R) , WHISKAS(R) , KITEKAT(R) , BANFIELD(R) Pet Hospital and NUTRO(R) ; Chocolate -- M&M'S(R) , SNICKERS(R) , DOVE(R) , GALAXY(R) , MARS(R) , MILKY WAY(R) and TWIX(R) ; Wrigley -- DOUBLEMINT(R) , EXTRA(R) , ORBIT(R) and 5(TM) chewing gums, SKITTLES(R) and STARBURST(R) candies, and ALTOIDS(R) AND LIFESAVERS(R) mints. Food -- UNCLE BEN'S(R) , DOLMIO(R) , EBLY(R) , MASTERFOODS(R) , SEEDS OF CHANGE(R) and ROYCO(R) ; Drinks -- ALTERRA COFFEE ROASTERS(TM), THE BRIGHT TEA COMPANY(TM), KLIX(R) and FLAVIA(R) ; Symbioscience -- COCOAVIA(R) WISDOM PANEL(R) and SERAMIS(R) .

From: New Improved Dog DNA Test Now Covers 200+ Breeds And Varieties - WSJ.com

Folks the time has come, the walrus said to speak of many things,

Of dogs and cats and other fancy stuff

Like DNA and Health tests, and other Science stuff.

What say you all to a Science Forum? Where we could encapsulate in some orderly fashion a whole host of research, fascinating discussions, and get to broaden our horizons?

You should read the blue silver Yorkie thread for some more interesting an enlightening DNA discussion too:D It is on the General Forum too!

Any astute guess why, they leapt in first on this;) I have two guesses

A science forum is a great idea! I think there is enough interest to support it.

I thought it strange that Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center was late in filing patents, considering that MARS Labs has been doing this kind of testing since 2007. I did a quick search for patents by MARS Labs and couldn't find any, but I didn't do a thorough search, so I'll check again later. With that in mind, by two guesses in answer to your question are:

(1) Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center is going to start up their own business of dog breed testing by DNA analysis, or

(2) They want to get paid some royalties by MARS Labs for using their technology. Not sure if they can get royalties though if MARS was doing this first.

My guess is that they realized perhaps later than 2007, how much the dog genome and DNA testing could really advance human cancer research. Or so I have read in a number of places on the web....

Then they looked and found nobody had patented it so why not them?

Also if they successfully replicate DNA strands and morph them into cancer similar to humans, they can test out certain drug and other cancer protocols on that sequence.

:thumbup::thumbup: I agree. MARS dropped the ball on this.

This particular patent only applies to the technology of dog breed DNA analysis. I bet they have other patents that apply to this type of cancer research.

I checked MARS patents all the way back to 2004, and they didn't patent anything about DNA and genetic analysis. Most of their patents are about candies, manufacturing processes, pet foods, and healthy food additives.

Have you ever wondered and been in awe with how human conversation, can expand just like the rays of the sun. ONe idea leads to another idea or thought. And thinking we were going to Paris, we ended up in a wondrous round about way in Denmark?

Our world is a very fascinating place to live in. And yes sometimes dangerous, sometimes heart wrenching, sometimes heart warming.

Thanks Phil for all you contribute here, it is so very much appreciated by me, and many of us!

Thanks to everyone who asked questions, especially to Jen. If she had not posted about Minnie, we never would have had this conversation!

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: For sure and very true

Special video dedicated to Minnie...
 

She blinded me with science!!!!

A little more about the acceptability and accuracy of dog breed identification by DNA analysis from: Rethinking dog breed identification in veterinary practice

To avoid problems associated with breed misidentification, we recommend that veterinary practices adopt a single non–breed-based term to describe all dogs of unknown parentage, rather than attempting to identify the predominant breed on the basis of visual inspection. For new clients and for new dogs acquired by existing clients, we recommend including a short statement on the new client or new patient sheet expressing the hospital’s position. A statement such as the following could be adopted: Because new scientific evidence has called into question the accuracy of visual breed identification of dogs, our hospital has adopted a policy to not identify canine patients by predominant breed unless the dog is purebred, the predominant breed of the dog’s parents is known, or the dog’s lineage has been established through the use of DNA analysis. [Emphasis mine]

It has been suggested that DNA analysis correctly identifies the breed of between 86% and 99% of purebred dogs. However, between 2007 and 2012, the stated mean accuracy of DNA analysis of first-generation crossbred dogs of known parentage increased from 84% to 90%, and breed identification accuracy of DNA analysis is expected to continue to improve.

A recent article comparing visual identification of dog breeds dogs vs. DNA identification of dog breeds in mixed breed dogs:

Comparison of Visual and DNA Breed Identification of Dogs and Inter-Observer Reliability

A pretty poster based on the data in the paper linked to above:

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil...y%20Poster.pdf

Wow this is hugely important! Especially for gathering stats of all sorts of important topics. Like dog bite statistics, like breed specific legislation!

Absolutely! That's why it's important that the accuracy of DNA dog breed testing keep on improving. It looks like veterinarians are going to rely more and more on DNA testing for dog breed identification of their patients, too.

Absolutely fascinating study, and so very vital to recording accurate statistics on a variety of dog related issues from detecting breed related conditions to tracking dog bites, etc.

Has DNA testing of specific purebred dogs* reached the point where a blind DNA sample could be sent of a purebred dog and the DNA results determine the breed accurately? It seems to my unscientific mind that this would be the ultimate test to prove the accuracy of the DNA testing.

*Defining a purebred dog as one that is registered with a reputable registry and has a minimum of a 5 to 7 year pedigree.

:thumbup::D

Ummm...feels 'off' a bit to me...;)

I missed that thread...will have to take a look.

MARS is a family owned business...with an "unknown" $$$$ factor since no shareholders to have to report to...to the best of my knowledge...bit it was interesting research...;)

:thumbup:...or similar. ;)