Decided not to dock tails!

[gracielove]

Yorkies look great with long tails or the shorter tails. I believe the tail docking was done in the first place because the Yorkie was bred to go into small spaces to kill rodents. Having the tail cut short kept the dog from various injuries that could occur under those circumstances. As already stated the Yorkie ears are supposed to go up naturally they are not cropped.

A 3 or 4 day old puppy has not developed connective tissue or bone in it's tail. If done properly the docking is only a brief bit of pain and they are back to normal shortly. As Yorkiemom 1 stated puppies will incur more pain than that in their future and certainly a pregnant and laboring mom suffers much more than that brief docking procedure. I cannot consider it a "cruel" procedure. Human piercing would be more painful.

By the way. Do you realize that male babies have been circumcised without anaesthetic for years. Now that is something with a high pain level.

[gemy]

Here is one article that would be worth your time to read. Also there is another thread on here, where we all discussed tail docking, and at least two posts were made (including this one below), that offered up for our perusal some more "expert" opinions on the subject. The thread is called Tail Docking, and can be found with the search function.

For me it is quite simple; the report below indicates a very low level of pain if any at all, due to the neuronal development of puppies. To me either he is right or he is wrong; and if wrong where is the research that invalidates his studies?

Once the pain question is put to one side; then the argument becomes different in my mind.

The fact that Europe in main has banned docking, doesn't mean that the decision was made based on scientific data. Emotions run high on this issue as well as others; and as humans often times emotion rules the day.
Of course there is the pain of any spay and neuter operation, and the attendant risks of surgery, and complications there after. But we here in North America continue to believe that "spay and neuter" is best for each dog, gives them better health. There are studies, and probably more coming that have more than begun to challenge that assertion.

One thing I wonder, have you thought at least about mentioning that sometimes long tails do get injured, when you place these puppies. While I understand with your two dogs you mated, their's haven't yet, and may never; I have no idea how robust are the tails of these puppies.

There are concerns for me with dew claw removal and docking of tails, that have nothing what so ever to do with the brief (if present) flash of pain. Razzle yelped more over his last needle to withdraw blood, then I ever heard a puppy do with tail docking. My concerns are firmly grounded in functionality of the working dog. In particular with certain performance events - like agility.

The other thing I would like to mention, I am a proud owner of Working Dogs, AND they are beloved and much treasured members of my household. I have Black Russian Terriers and a Yorkshire Terrier and yes he is a working dog! He will be training in Earth Dog trials and he is already a dock jumper as well as a Multi Ch and a Grand Champion.
Whereever did you get the idea that a Working Dog is NOT a beloved member of the family? Ever person I know, that has working dogs, treat them with just as much, if not more, love and care then the "average" pet owner. And if you consider that most if not all dogs, loved to be engaged in fun and fruitful activities with their owners, working dog owners are way out ahead of the pack.

I like to see people "argue" a case based on proven facts and research. And yes as our understanding grows, as research comes in, we do get to change our minds about topics.

This board is one of the best forums around to learn the many ways and things about Yorkies. There is a wealth of information here, on many subjects.

At this point in time, in my opinion, there is no overwhelming case to ban any docking of tails






Tail Docking - The Fritsch Report
Since the classic research by Adolph Portman (1944/1990), which verified the work of Herder, Gehlen and Plessner, the
validity of the Altricial/Precocial differentiation in animals has become a well-established scientific fact. More recently, this
gained new attention with research on artificial intelligence in information-processing systems ('Altricial self-organising
information-processing systems', Aaron Sloman & Jackie Chappell, School of Biosciences, University of Birmingham,
UK).
Briefl y, animals belonging to the Altricial group (dogs, cats, some birds, rodents, etc.) are born relatively immature,
with a nervous system not fully developed. They have very little feeling of pain during the fi rst fi ve days after birth. The
blood circulation and the bones of the tail are relatively undeveloped or 'primitive'. This is in contrast to animals in the
Precocial group (pigs, sheep etc.), which are born fully developed.
Performed on altricial neonatal puppies, 3 days postpartum, the procedure is regarded as significantly less intrusive
than toe-clipping in rodents for laboratory identification. In the event the procedure is to be undertaken on other than
neonatal animals, there must be a strong scientific c reason for using this technique and the procedure must be done on
an anesthetized animal (Guide for the Care and Use of Laboratory Animals, National Academy Press, Washington, D.C.,
1996). Tail docking in neo-natal puppies is certainly far less intrusive and painful than the shortening or docking of tails
in Precocial pigs and lambs, because the latter have a fully developed threshold of pain. . http://www.k9alliance.com/resources/...-FactSheet.pdf

Since docking was banned in Sweden in 1989, there has been a massive increase in tail injuries amongst previously
docked breeds. Within the 50 undocked Pointer litters registered in that year with the Swedish Kennel Club, 38% of
dogs suffered tail injury before they were 18 months old and two years later, by 1991, the number of individuals with
tail injuries had increased to 51% in the same group (Gunilla Strejffert, Report to the Swedish Breed Council for German
Shorthaired Pointers, 1992, Borlange, Sweden). Even more alarming is the fi nding that only 16% of injury cases had
improved, 40% showed no improvement and more than half of dogs with tail injuries had regressed during the
two year period!
An ad hoc survey amongst owners of English Pointers in South Africa, also a shorthaired breed, indicate that at least
one out of fi ve English Pointers suffers from some sort of tail injury during their life. The English Pointer’s tail is traditionally
not docked mainly because of a relatively short tail in proportion to its body, with a lower risk of tail injury (Fig 2).

A docking ban is no cure at all
If tail damage occurs during adulthood it often does not heel well or does not heal at all. This is mainly due to the
injury being constantly banged against objects, poor blood circulation in the tail and constant licking and chewing by the
dog (Fig 6). The healing process can be painful and protracted with considerable distress to the dog. Injuries often result
in necrosis of the tail tip.
This can sometimes be treated with partial amputation but secondary problems can occur in the healing process,
which actually makes it necessary to amputate the tail several times before the healing process is achieved.
A docking ban is no cure at all
If tail damage occurs during adulthood it often does not heel well or does not heal at all. This is mainly due to the
injury being constantly banged against objects, poor blood circulation in the tail and constant licking and chewing by the
dog (Fig 6). The healing process can be painful and protracted with considerable distress to the dog. Injuries often result
in necrosis of the tail tip.
This can sometimes be treated with partial amputation but secondary problems can occur in the healing process,
which actually makes it necessary to amputate the tail several times before the healing process is achieved.
It's not just working dogs
Sweden banned tail docking over ten years ago. Swedish veterinary reports indicate that 17% of Boxers are
Swedish veterinary reports indicated that 17% of Boxers are sustaining tail injuries in and around the home
environment. Wagging tails cannot be immobilised, and these injuries frequently result in tail amputation.

FACT SHEET
5
damaging their long tails in and around the home environment. While less than the 51% incidence of tail damage
sustained by pointer breeds in Sweden following the ban on tail docking, 17% still highly signifi cant.
The damage range from broken tips to total fractures further up the tail, just distal to the point where docking would
normally be carried out. Because treatment of the injury does not address the aetiology, the injuries keep recurring and
frequently end up requiring amputation.
Conclusion
Tail docking of the gundog breeds is practised not for cosmetic reasons but to prevent serious injury. Field
working is a human induced activitiy for which we must accept the responsibility. It is our duty to prevent
distress in our animals.
From the veterinary point of view, no scientifi c studies have been submitted to show why the docking of
gundogs' tails are benefi cial. Indeed, the treatment of tail injuries in adult dogs is a costly, protracted and
repetitive process compared to docking — and, in conclusion, infi nitely more painful and stressful to the
very animal whose welfare we seek to protect. After all, the reason for tail docking is a cornerstone of good
medicine and animal care. It is called:
Prophylaxis.
Policy Statement
It is the policy of the undersigned organisations that
1. From a professional veterinary point of view, failure to dock and clip in the prescribed manner the tails and
dew-claws of specifi c gundog breeds intended for fi eld work, is considered unethical; and
2. From a legal point of view, such failure is regarded as constituting animal cruelty.

[Wylie's Mom]

Interesting you brought this up bc we just had a thorough discussion about tail docking here: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...l-docking.html (great read!)

Personally, I'd like to see the US go in the direction of not docking...for the many reasons I've already stated in the above thread. My Wylie and Marcel both have docked tails; but my Pfeiffer is undocked and her tail is BEAUTIFUL! And never once (knock on wood) has her tail ever seemed to be an especially vulnerable part of her body, any more so than any other part of her body.

It'd be great, anecdotally, if you could always keep track of your undocked litter as to whether or not their tales are ever injured.

My bach degree is in nursing too, and I 100% agree on the pain issue. I've always wondered why, if it's so painless, breeders don't post a video of the docking here if for nothing else, to put people's minds at ease.

Circumcision is also purported by many to be painless. Having seen many circumcisions in nursing school, I'd bet my life that it most certainly is NOT. I'll never forget the screaming of those poor little newborns .

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Interesting you brought this up bc we just had a thorough discussion about tail docking here: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...l-docking.html (great read!)

Personally, I'd like to see the US go in the direction of not docking...for the many reasons I've already stated in the above thread. My Wylie and Marcel both have docked tails; but my Pfeiffer is undocked and her tail is BEAUTIFUL! And never once (knock on wood) has her tail ever seemed to be an especially vulnerable part of her body, any more so than any other part of her body.

It'd be great, anecdotally, if you could always keep track of your undocked litter as to whether or not their tales are ever injured.

My bach degree is in nursing too, and I 100% agree on the pain issue. I've always wondered why, if it's so painless, breeders don't post a video of the docking here if for nothing else, to put people's minds at ease.

Circumcision is also purported by many to be painless. Having seen many circumcisions in nursing school, I'd bet my life that it most certainly is NOT. I'll never forget the screaming of those poor little newborns .

The problem with posting a video is that many will use the video as their training. I personally would rather someone forgo docking, if they've never had any in person training by an experienced breeder. Obviously, some vets don't even have the training in the procedure and that should be discussed before the pups are born. The OP doesn’t say, but docking should be done early within the first few days. There are different procedures for docking and some sound lots better than others and I imagine the skill level of the person doing the procedure would make a huge difference. Personally, I would hate to see an undocked tail used as a "selling point", and I fear that's what will happen.


I’m surprised you heard circumcision was painless, as a mother, they didn’t tell me this and this was over 40 years ago. I knew it was painful. I will say both of the boys cried much harder when they did a PKU blood test on their foot a few days later, that test really seem to hurt them. I have heard that "ritual" circumcision is relatively painless, but that’s a whole other story.

[gemy]

[QUOTE=Nancy1999;4020726]The problem with posting a video is that many will use the video as their training. I personally would rather someone forgo docking, if they've never had any in person training by an experienced breeder. Obviously, some vets don't even have the training in the procedure and that should be discussed before the pups are born. The OP doesn’t say, but docking should be done early within the first few days. There are different procedures for docking and some sound lots better than others and I imagine the skill level of the person doing the procedure would make a huge difference. Personally, I would hate to see an undocked tail used as a "selling point", and I fear that's what will happen.

Once again I concur with Nancy. Vets generally speaking, unless they are reproduction vets, and or have had years of experience, do NOT have a good experiental knowledge of docking. It is yet again why it is so wise to grow up in breeding with an experienced mentor. They have found the vets that do have the knowledge, and often unless a huge distance is a factor you will go to their vet for the procedure. And also their vet can refer you to one closer to you that Does have the experience.

Yes and their are different methods as we have discussed earlier. My breeder of Razzle, even though hugely experienced still I believes takes the pups to her vet to do. My breeder of Magic, who is also an MD, did her own.

[CouversMom]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Personally, I'd like to see the US go in the direction of not docking...for the many reasons I've already stated in the above thread. My Wylie and Marcel both have docked tails; but my Pfeiffer is undocked and her tail is BEAUTIFUL! And never once (knock on wood) has her tail ever seemed to be an especially vulnerable part of her body, any more so than any other part of her body.

Once again, I agree with you Ann. I think the United States is behind many countries when it comes to a lot of things... including docking.

I have a yorkie with a full tail and never once has she hurt it. So we should dock all tails because they may get hurt? That to me is absurd. Let's chop off a body part because damage may occur

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by CouversMom

Once again, I agree with you Ann. I think the United States is behind many countries when it comes to a lot of things... including docking.

I have a yorkie with a full tail and never once has she hurt it. So we should dock all tails because they may get hurt? That to me is absurd. Let's chop off a body part because damage may occur

So is this your opinion on dewclaws as well? I don't think anyone is implying that 100% of the dogs whose tails aren't docked will break their tail, I don't even think 50% will, especially since most Yorkies live a pampered life, but I'm not comfortable if even 5 percent end up breaking their tails, and the number is much higher than that in some countries. Breaking the tail is extremely painful and dangerous, a broken tail doesn’t not heal well and often results in complete amputation of the tail including the butt muscle. So were not just talking about a "little" damage. I worry more about breeders breeding without any knowledge and probably no health testing and then using this as a selling feature. If we want to eliminate all pain, we probably should ban breeding.

[CouversMom]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

So is this your opinion on dewclaws as well? I don't think anyone is implying that 100% of the dogs whose tails aren't docked will break their tail, I don't even think 50% will, especially since most Yorkies live a pampered life, but I'm not comfortable if even 5 percent end up breaking their tails, and the number is much higher than that in some countries. Breaking the tail is extremely painful and dangerous, a broken tail doesn’t not heal well and often results in complete amputation of the tail including the butt muscle. So were not just talking about a "little" damage. I worry more about breeders breeding without any knowledge and probably no health testing and then using this as a selling feature. If we want to eliminate all pain, we probably should ban breeding.

Well Khloe has her dew claws as well and hasn't had any issues... But I understand that she is not all dogs.

I know there are worse things that happen to dogs like breeding without health testing, but we are talking about docking. I don't believe in cutting off a body part that an animal is born with just because it may get hurt. I also don't believe in infant circumcision, so that shows you where I stand

[gemy]

[QUOTE=TheBooCrew;4020582]


** [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]I don't want to get in an argument started,but I would really like to know what advantages there are to having a YorkshireTerrier's tail docked in today's world? I'm talking about a Yorkshire Terrier that is a lovingmember of your family, not a working dog.

Actually this is where I got the idea.

[gemy]

Well I reason as follows, if we as a "human" species decide and the only reason to decide a certain way is that a certain procedure has some pain (albeit) temporary pain that this is a good enough reason to ban a procedure; then there are a whole lot of medical procedures we put our dogs through that have at least as much or even more pain (one would think) associated with them.

There needs to be more to the picture in my opinion then just "avoidance of pain".

It's fine that you feel happy you didn't dock the tails, and it was your CHOICE, one you were able to freely make to do or not to do.

I prefer to maintain that CHOICE for every breeder. So I could never support at this point in time (with the research that I am aware of) and my own experience a BAN on docking. A BAN on dewclaw removal, and a BAN on ear cropping.

[gracielove]

I would not like to see docking banned by law in this country. It should be left up to the breed clubs as to what the standard should be. If a breed club feels they should change the standard due to updated info or general consensus then that should be done. I'm sure some people would still dock. The worst docked tails I have seen have been done by puppy millers and BYBs that do their own and hardly leave any tail at all on the poor dog's behind. Of course that is one area I do have strong feelings about and although I am against government intrusion into American lives I do believe that something needs to be done about the rampant abuse of dogs by puppy mills.

I do think that people who have a particular breed that they love many times would like to keep the historical look of the breed and I see nothing wrong with that. Personal choice by responsible individuals should be respected.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by gracielove

I would not like to see docking banned by law in this country. It should be left up to the breed clubs as to what the standard should be. If a breed club feels they should change the standard due to updated info or general consensus then that should be done. I'm sure some people would still dock. The worst docked tails I have seen have been done by puppy millers and BYBs that do their own and hardly leave any tail at all on the poor dog's behind. Of course that is one area I do have strong feelings about and although I am against government intrusion into American lives I do believe that something needs to be done about the rampant abuse of dogs by puppy mills.

I do think that people who have a particular breed that they love many times would like to keep the historical look of the breed and I see nothing wrong with that. Personal choice by responsible individuals should be respected.

I do too! Let's start with all commercial breeders being regulated to do the breed specific health tests, and pre breeding tests prior to being "allowed" to breed their dogs. I know commercial breeders are not puppy mills, but how the heck do you try to regulate puppy mills, which I think by definition operate under the radar?

[concretegurl]

I'm so glad you nade the best descision, especially considering the circumstances.

Personally I'd be looking for a more competant vet who expects more competancy from their staff as well.

I can't say enough about the difference in finding a small dog specialty vet.

Congrats and wrlcone to yorkietalk, looking forward to updates and pics.

[AprilLove]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Interesting you brought this up bc we just had a thorough discussion about tail docking here: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...l-docking.html (great read!)

Personally, I'd like to see the US go in the direction of not docking...for the many reasons I've already stated in the above thread. My Wylie and Marcel both have docked tails; but my Pfeiffer is undocked and her tail is BEAUTIFUL! And never once (knock on wood) has her tail ever seemed to be an especially vulnerable part of her body, any more so than any other part of her body.

It'd be great, anecdotally, if you could always keep track of your undocked litter as to whether or not their tales are ever injured.

My bach degree is in nursing too, and I 100% agree on the pain issue. I've always wondered why, if it's so painless, breeders don't post a video of the docking here if for nothing else, to put people's minds at ease.

Circumcision is also purported by many to be painless. Having seen many circumcisions in nursing school, I'd bet my life that it most certainly is NOT. I'll never forget the screaming of those poor little newborns .

100% agree with you Ann!
Congratulations OP for the new litter and on not amputating their tails ♥

The tail consists of 6-23 vertebra enclosed in muscles, 4-7 pairs of nerves and supporting tendons and cartilage. Some breeds have a small portion of the tail removed whilst others such as the Rottweiler, Boxer or Doberman may be left with 1-2 vertebrae. This procedure involves the cutting through of skin, muscle, bones and cartilage and all without any form of pain relief
Ref: Dog Tail Docking: Issues and Health Implications of Docking, whether on a Boxer or a Puppy

Tail "docking", ear "cropping" and "dew claw removal" are all amputations of body parts and I hope we as a country can get these practices outlawed.
I don't buy the "might injure it" argument.
They might injure their paws, should they be removed? They might injure their claws, should we remove them? Or their nose, or... or .. you get the picture

As someone who has had four dogs (two dearly departed rip babies ♥), with full tails and AprilLove being the only one without a tail, and with barely a nub at that I can tell you that it does affect their movement by amputating them. Also no injuries of the long tails in 16 years. AprilLove can not run like my two with full tails and walks differently too. I see it as a disadvantage having the parts of their body that they were born with amputated.

I am going to provide a few links at the end of my loooooong reply for some interesting reading on both sides of the issues of dew claw and tail removals (AMPUTATIONS)

About the dew claw removal. I never really knew that they were removed on purpose on my first two dogs, I just really thought they were born with them or without them, until a friend had their cats' claws removed, I really didn't get that they were being amputated. After reading and studying more on the issue, and living with Nappy who has his, I now understand they are an integral part of their function. Similar to our thumbs.

http://caninesports.com/DewClawExplanation.pdf

and a very interesting video for example:

Dew Claws Do Have a Purpose! - YouTube

Nappy can run unlike any of the other 4 dogs I have had, and I now understand it after viewing him in slow mo and watching and understanding how the dew claws are like our thumbs. He can turn on a dime, Rozi and April cannot. He has the smoothest, almost fox like runnig motion that any of my dogs ever had. It is because he utilizes his dew claws.

The comparison of the dew claw and canine foot to our hand and thumb makes total sense to me. I recently amputated part of my thumb and had surgery on it. (a procedure called the "Moberg Flap") The hand surgeon informed me that our thumbs are 80 % of our hand function... I learned this verrrry quickly, being unable to use the hand for almost three months after the repair.
Anyway, my point in all this is that if in fact our dogs dew claws are even close to being 80% of their foot/paw function, then why on earth do we remove them? Food for thought I hope.

Nappy has never had an issue with his, I clip them when I clip the other ones. Removing a body part because "it might get injured" is a very very weak excuse for amputation, imho. If that were the case, If I would have had my thumb removed when I was 3 to 5 days old, I would never have injured it!!!

HEre are the links I mentioned before, just some other viewpoints on both sides and some referenced studies, on these issues.

Kandu's Breeding Philosophy

Cropping and Docking: A Discussion of the Controversy and the Role of Law in Preventing Unnecessary Cosmetic Surgery on Dogs

http://caninesports.com/DewClawExplanation.pdf

Dog Tail Docking: Issues and Health Implications of Docking, whether on a Boxer or a Puppy

- WSAVA Tail Docking Position Statement

[CouversMom]

Originally Posted by AprilLove

100% agree with you Ann!
Congratulations OP for the new litter and on not amputating their tails ♥

The tail consists of 6-23 vertebra enclosed in muscles, 4-7 pairs of nerves and supporting tendons and cartilage. Some breeds have a small portion of the tail removed whilst others such as the Rottweiler, Boxer or Doberman may be left with 1-2 vertebrae. This procedure involves the cutting through of skin, muscle, bones and cartilage and all without any form of pain relief
Ref: Dog Tail Docking: Issues and Health Implications of Docking, whether on a Boxer or a Puppy

Tail "docking", ear "cropping" and "dew claw removal" are all amputations of body parts and I hope we as a country can get these practices outlawed.
I don't buy the "might injure it" argument.
They might injure their paws, should they be removed? They might injure their claws, should we remove them? Or their nose, or... or .. you get the picture

As someone who has had four dogs (two dearly departed rip babies ♥), with full tails and AprilLove being the only one without a tail, and with barely a nub at that I can tell you that it does affect their movement by amputating them. Also no injuries of the long tails in 16 years. AprilLove can not run like my two with full tails and walks differently too. I see it as a disadvantage having the parts of their body that they were born with amputated.

I am going to provide a few links at the end of my loooooong reply for some interesting reading on both sides of the issues of dew claw and tail removals (AMPUTATIONS)

About the dew claw removal. I never really knew that they were removed on purpose on my first two dogs, I just really thought they were born with them or without them, until a friend had their cats' claws removed, I really didn't get that they were being amputated. After reading and studying more on the issue, and living with Nappy who has his, I now understand they are an integral part of their function. Similar to our thumbs.

http://caninesports.com/DewClawExplanation.pdf

and a very interesting video for example:
Dew Claws Do Have a Purpose! - YouTube



Nappy can run unlike any of the other 4 dogs I have had, and I now understand it after viewing him in slow mo and watching and understanding how the dew claws are like our thumbs. He can turn on a dime, Rozi and April cannot. He has the smoothest, almost fox like runnig motion that any of my dogs ever had. It is because he utilizes his dew claws.

The comparison of the dew claw and canine foot to our hand and thumb makes total sense to me. I recently amputated part of my thumb and had surgery on it. (a procedure called the "Moberg Flap") The hand surgeon informed me that our thumbs are 80 % of our hand function... I learned this verrrry quickly, being unable to use the hand for almost three months after the repair.
Anyway, my point in all this is that if in fact our dogs dew claws are even close to being 80% of their foot/paw function, then why on earth do we remove them? Food for thought I hope.

Nappy has never had an issue with his, I clip them when I clip the other ones. Removing a body part because "it might get injured" is a very very weak excuse for amputation, imho. If that were the case, If I would have had my thumb removed when I was 3 to 5 days old, I would never have injured it!!!

HEre are the links I mentioned before, just some other viewpoints on both sides and some referenced studies, on these issues.

Kandu's Breeding Philosophy

Cropping and Docking: A Discussion of the Controversy and the Role of Law in Preventing Unnecessary Cosmetic Surgery on Dogs

http://caninesports.com/DewClawExplanation.pdf

Dog Tail Docking: Issues and Health Implications of Docking, whether on a Boxer or a Puppy

- WSAVA Tail Docking Position Statement

I love this response Thank you AprilLove.

It makes a lot of sense to me... Couver had his dew claws removed and tail docked and he walks a lot differently than Khloe. He is not as agile and cannot turn sharply when running.