Decided not to dock tails!

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by CouversMom

I love this response Thank you AprilLove.

It makes a lot of sense to me... Couver had his dew claws removed and tail docked and he walks a lot differently than Khloe. He is not as agile and cannot turn sharply when running.

I should've mentioned in my last post that Pfeiffer also has her dew claws - we've never had a single issue with them. I even asked my vet about whether they should be removed during her spay - and she didn't recommend it at all. She doesn't see the risk/benefit unless a dog is a hardcore hunting dog. Otherwise, she almost never sees dew claw issues to the point that they warrant removal *before* an injury.

[gemy]

April Love thanks for your post. I will review in more detail your attachments.

But I do truly wonder, if "amputations" as is categorized in your post, and seems to be reflected in the first link I read, what you actually think about the surgical "amputation" of a dogs reproductive organs?

[AprilLove]

Originally Posted by gemy

April Love thanks for your post. I will review in more detail your attachments.

But I do truly wonder, if "amputations" as is categorized in your post, and seems to be reflected in the first link I read, what you actually think about the surgical "amputation" of a dogs reproductive organs?

Hi Gail
I do think they are just that (and for the purpose of definition) : surgical amputation of internal
organs. And I do believe the "surgical" is a key point here as tails and dews on day old pups are not done with any type of pain prevention. Do I think we should do it? (spay/neuter) I honestly don't have an answer for that. Is there a need for it because of the millions of animals put down each year due to overpopulation (which is really due to ignorant humans) Is it humane to surgically amputate a womans' ovaries/uterus much the same way as we do our pets to prevent pregnancy/avoid cancer risk or avoid menopause? Is it necessary to surgically amputate their baby teeth? We do it for their health , are we spay neutering for their health as well, possibly?
Again, don't know that I have formed a die hard opinion on it.



Where is the necessity in amputating a tail or dew claws, cutting ears.. does it prevent deaths of millions or protect/prevent tail/claw injury in a few? or provide appeasement to a group who decides how a canine breed "conforms" (looks) to a human definition of said breed ?
(The above are all rhetoric questions as these are what go rounc in my head during these discussions)

As you can see, Gail, I too have questions, as we all do in debating/discussing this issue. In a perfect world, we would not interfere at all in what the great creator has put upon this earth, but alas, that is a whole 'nother discussion... and the damage started centuries ago

I really believe that the usa is not far behind in banning these practices, it is just a matter of time. Some vet practices have already banned it in the usa, Banfeild is one.
I also know (show) breeders who say they welcome it when the time comes and have no issues with the change to standards that will have to take place.
I honestly don't see how it adversely affects breeders breeding for the betterment of their chosen breed .To me, betterment of a breed should be about health/longevity/temperament, Not strictly looks, which is what seems to me to be a huge focus in the YT breed, unfortunately, as it is their personalities that what makes them truly so so special.

[gracielove]

To call tail docking and dew claw removal on a three or four day old puppy an amputation is just incorrect terminology. Tail docking of an adult dog would certainly be considered an amputation. A three day old puppy does not have the bone or developed connective tissue that an adult has.

Puppy mills and BYBs are the ones that cut the tails so short. That can be dangerous but those people do not have a clue about what they are doing or even basic instruction on how to do a proper tail docking.

[AprilLove]

Originally Posted by gracielove

To call tail docking and dew claw removal on a three or four day old puppy an amputation is just incorrect terminology. Tail docking of an adult dog would certainly be considered an amputation. A three day old puppy does not have the bone or developed connective tissue that an adult has.

Puppy mills and BYBs are the ones that cut the tails so short. That can be dangerous but those people do not have a clue about what they are doing or even basic instruction on how to do a proper tail docking.

I am sorry but it is not incorrect statement. Amputate by definition (websters dictionary) "to remove by or as if by cutting; especially: to cut (as a limb) from the body"

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by AprilLove

I am sorry but it is not incorrect statement. Amputate by definition (websters dictionary) "to remove by or as if by cutting; especially: to cut (as a limb) from the body"

For one thing, part of a tail is not a limb and if anything a dew claw would be considered a digit and not a limb. Limbs are arms and legs. As I said before there is no bone or hard connective tissue on 3 day old puppies as there would be on an adult. Humans do far worse things to their bodies. As far as surgery goes in removing organs.....it may not hurt during surgery but it sure as heck does afterward. They send a dog home on a few pills equal to some Advil if anything. Maybe a Tramadol that only makes them groggy for a longer length of time.

It would seem that surgically removing the foreskin of a male baby without anesthetic would be considered inhumane. They are humans and yet it is done everyday. And have you seen a guy after a vasectomy?

I'm not saying that the puppies do not have some pain for a short time but it is certainly not near what an amputation involves.

[Donnainohio63]

I have 5 dogs living with me now. 4 of them have dew claws and tails, one has a nub and no dew claws. He walks differently that the other 4 and he can not run as fast as the rest of them. I did not have any claws or tails removed on any of the pups that Sadie had and they are all just fine. I just do not agree with it and I would never do it but this is just my own personal opinion

[KimInMD]

Two of my babies have full tails and one has a docked tail. I love them both ways. Our old rescue girl, Lucy has a full tail that is broken in two places. They are old injuries, and don't seem to hurt her when I touch it now, but I can't help but wonder what happened to her. Was something dropped on her tail? Was it shut in a door, or stepped on? I believe with all my heart that at the time of the injuries, Lucy had to have suffered terrible pain. You can feel the crushed bone and cartilage just laying in there. Her tail is visibly bent and mangled looking. My poor, sweet, little girl tries to wag her tail, but it just kind-of flops around. I think a dog who holds it's tail erect over it's back is less likely to sustain accidental injury. A dog with a long, lowered tail that hangs down naturally and curls outward from the body is definitely going to be more at risk of tail injury. Is potential injury a reason to dock proactively? In my opinion, no, but the risk of injury is something a responsible pet owner needs to be mindful of if they choose an undocked dog. Owners must understand the fragile nature and additional risk of injury if they choose a Yorkie who will stay extra tiny when full grown. We discuss this here at YT all the time. Some people's lifestyle (like a hectic household with young children) would dictate that they would be better off with a larger and more sturdy dog. I think the considerations are exactly the same with a long, full tailed Yorkie. Your lifestyle should be considered in deciding if a long tailed Yorkie is the best choice for your individual household. I'm not making a judgement here of anyone's individual choice. This is just my personal opinion based on my observation of my Lucy.

[Oddsock]

Originally Posted by AprilLove

100% agree with you Ann!
Congratulations OP for the new litter and on not amputating their tails ♥

The tail consists of 6-23 vertebra enclosed in muscles, 4-7 pairs of nerves and supporting tendons and cartilage. Some breeds have a small portion of the tail removed whilst others such as the Rottweiler, Boxer or Doberman may be left with 1-2 vertebrae. This procedure involves the cutting through of skin, muscle, bones and cartilage and all without any form of pain relief
Ref: Dog Tail Docking: Issues and Health Implications of Docking, whether on a Boxer or a Puppy

..................................



Nappy can run unlike any of the other 4 dogs I have had, and I now understand it after viewing him in slow mo and watching and understanding how the dew claws are like our thumbs. He can turn on a dime, Rozi and April cannot. He has the smoothest, almost fox like runnig motion that any of my dogs ever had. It is because he utilizes his dew claws.
.........................................

Totally agree with you. So glad this litter is keeping it's tail.

We've had dogs all our lives and only ever had one with an injured tail and that's our black lab.He did it to himself several times, wagging his tail so hard, while it was hitting a door post, wall or door. He'd dislocate it, still wag and every time it hit the door/wall he'd whimper, but wouldn't move out the way or stop wagging. He did this about 3 or 4 times when he was younger. We'd have to move him to a safe area, because he didn't have the brains to move himself. Labs are working dogs, but they don't remove their tails, I guess injuries are not common or they have them lopped off too.

We don't remove dew claws or crop ears here and I've never understood why it's done. Any ear can get dirty if not cared for.

I've seen a litter of toy poodles docked and they all screamed...the breeder used a rubber band and razor, and yelled at them calling them 'babies' for crying . She was a very unpleasant woman, which of course not all breeders are like her.


We don't de-claw cats here either, and have also had them all our lives and never had them ruin our home. They are easily taught and do well as long as they have a place of their own to scratch, we give ours a 2 by 4 plank of wood, that it loves to sit on and scratch.

I'd live to see a study done, with the countries who used to dock tails and now don't....and what impact that has had to injuries and the breeds.

[Wylie's Mom]

This is an article posted in the other recent tail docking thread we had here, it's a very interesting read. It's in pdf format, but if anyone can't read it - I also pasted *most* of it into the last thread...my plan is to put it into the Library, along with the other docking articles (the ones in support of docking).

This is the link: http://www.onekind.org/uploads/publi...cking-dogs.pdf

The paper is done by a UK animal charity and contains 8 journal references etcetera. This is the table of contents, so you can see what's covered:

Contents

1. The procedure of tail-docking

2. Pain caused by tail-docking

2.1 Comparison with pain in docked farmed animals
2.2 Puppies’ reaction to tail-docking
2.3 Increased pain in neonatal animals
2.4 Long-term pain from tail-docking

3. Health and welfare problems associated with tail-docked dogs

3.1 Hernia and incontinence
3.2 Movement, communication and behaviour

4. Does tail-docking prevent injury?

4.1 Evidence from veterinary clinic records
4.2 ‘Working dog’ breeds and lifestyle

5. Views of the veterinary and related professions

5.1 Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons
5.2 British Veterinary Association
5.3 British Small Animal Veterinary Association
5.4 Animal Welfare Veterinary Team of DEFRA
5.5 Companion Animal Welfare Council
5.6 Scottish SPCA

6. Other countries that have banned tail-docking

7. Summary

8. Recommendation

References

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

This is an article posted in the other recent tail docking thread we had here, it's a very interesting read. It's in pdf format, but if anyone can't read it - I also pasted *most* of it into the last thread...my plan is to put it into the Library, along with the other docking articles (the ones in support of docking).

This is the link: http://www.onekind.org/uploads/publi...cking-dogs.pdf

The paper is done by a UK animal charity and contains 8 journal references etcetera. This is the table of contents, so you can see what's covered:

Contents

1. The procedure of tail-docking

2. Pain caused by tail-docking

2.1 Comparison with pain in docked farmed animals
2.2 Puppies’ reaction to tail-docking
2.3 Increased pain in neonatal animals
2.4 Long-term pain from tail-docking

3. Health and welfare problems associated with tail-docked dogs

3.1 Hernia and incontinence
3.2 Movement, communication and behaviour

4. Does tail-docking prevent injury?

4.1 Evidence from veterinary clinic records
4.2 ‘Working dog’ breeds and lifestyle

5. Views of the veterinary and related professions

5.1 Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons
5.2 British Veterinary Association
5.3 British Small Animal Veterinary Association
5.4 Animal Welfare Veterinary Team of DEFRA
5.5 Companion Animal Welfare Council
5.6 Scottish SPCA

6. Other countries that have banned tail-docking

7. Summary

8. Recommendation

References

I notice that this pdf is written by "Advocate for Animals" and entitled "Why Tail Docking of Dogs should be Prohibited." I would say that to say the least the information is slanted according to the organizations view point. Much of the information about tail docking contained here refers to improper methods done by farmers and totally unprofessional people. My dog's tail is docked. She does not have pain in her docked tail. I'm sure if a tail is docked improperly and cut too short it could cause continued pain and permanent damage. But that indicates that tail docking should only be done under proper conditions by trained individuals. Not that it should be totally outlawed.
There are many other sources that could contradict the info contained in this file. It is one side of the story.
If this type of information were totally true we should all be outraged at the YTCA and other breed organizations that still dock tails. How many responsible owners on YT have YT's with properly docked tails that have no problem what so ever? I'm sure many. How many breeders dock their dogs tail's? There are many reputable breeders that dock their dog's tails and to insinuate that they are participating in mutilation or even amputation of their puppies tails is just inaccurate.
The pictures in your file indicate some horrible cases of mutilation of tails but it does not represent docking as it should be. Slanted to say the least.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by gracielove

I notice that this pdf is written by "Advocate for Animals" and entitled "Why Tail Docking of Dogs should be Prohibited." I would say that to say the least the information is slanted according to the organizations view point. Much of the information about tail docking contained here refers to improper methods done by farmers and totally unprofessional people. My dog's tail is docked. She does not have pain in her docked tail. I'm sure if a tail is docked improperly and cut too short it could cause continued pain and permanent damage. But that indicates that tail docking should only be done under proper conditions by trained individuals. Not that it should be totally outlawed.
There are many other sources that could contradict the info contained in this file. It is one side of the story.
If this type of information were totally true we should all be outraged at the YTCA and other breed organizations that still dock tails. How many responsible owners on YT have YT's with properly docked tails that have no problem what so ever? I'm sure many. How many breeders dock their dogs tail's? There are many reputable breeders that dock their dog's tails and to insinuate that they are participating in mutilation or even amputation of their puppies tails is just inaccurate.
The pictures in your file indicate some horrible cases of mutilation of tails but it does not represent docking as it should be. Slanted to say the least.

And that is my problem. How do you or I weigh through the underlying agendas?

How do we assess the information we are "given". the internet is a great boon, and a horrible bane! For what is a reputable site? How to know if someone has misquoted or misinterpreted studies that they referenced?

I do know that my experience is limited, as compared to vets or animal hospitals that see hundreds if not thousands of dogs a year.

While this topic is one as a breeder I try to keep abreast of, and quite frankly as a member of two breed clubs, that are looking at changing standards, I want to make the best informed decision I can, when it comes to voting time, for the change of standard.

I still feel that a ban is inappropriate at this point in time. Again I re-iterate docking etc, should be breeder's choice. And that for me presents a dilemmna. I know that the timeframe for docking is very short. And at 2-3 days old, is way too early for me to "guess" if this dog or that, will have the potential to go onto a World Champion. If I want any hope to show internationally I have to kept the tails intact!

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by gemy

And that is my problem. How do you or I weigh through the underlying agendas?

How do we assess the information we are "given". the internet is a great boon, and a horrible bane! For what is a reputable site? How to know if someone has misquoted or misinterpreted studies that they referenced?

I do know that my experience is limited, as compared to vets or animal hospitals that see hundreds if not thousands of dogs a year.

While this topic is one as a breeder I try to keep abreast of, and quite frankly as a member of two breed clubs, that are looking at changing standards, I want to make the best informed decision I can, when it comes to voting time, for the change of standard.

I still feel that a ban is inappropriate at this point in time. Again I re-iterate docking etc, should be breeder's choice. And that for me presents a dilemmna. I know that the timeframe for docking is very short. And at 2-3 days old, is way too early for me to "guess" if this dog or that, will have the potential to go onto a World Champion. If I want any hope to show internationally I have to kept the tails intact!

I agree with you that when looking for information on the internet the opinions and information a person finds are diverse to say the least. I'm not a reporter but I have found that in seeking out the truth concerning a multitude of matters one needs to consider the source of information first in order to decide if the information is coming from a person or group that has an interest in the subject and is already invested in one side of the issue or another. It can often be difficult to glean the truth of any particular issue when dealing with people or groups that already have an agenda.
I also agree that the decision is something for the breed clubs to make. We have enough government intrusion in our lives as it is. Informed individuals should be able to make the decision for themselves.
I'm not sure what conditions were in place in Europe at the time they banned docking but from looking at the info in the pdf much of what they are referring to were truly horrible cases of mutilation done by farmers and apparently individuals that had no medical training.
I have seen some tiny nubs on dogs that have been docked by puppy mill operators and that is an issue all in it's self. There are many problems in that area.
I'm not sure how much breeding you do but I certainly believe you love your animals and would not subject them to some horrible procedure just to be able to enter them in various AKC functions. While I would not make that assumption of all people who show I have known breeders in my lifetime that were very dedicated to their breed and would never have let their animals be harmed in order to enter the show ring.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by gracielove

I agree with you that when looking for information on the internet the opinions and information a person finds are diverse to say the least. I'm not a reporter but I have found that in seeking out the truth concerning a multitude of matters one needs to consider the source of information first in order to decide if the information is coming from a person or group that has an interest in the subject and is already invested in one side of the issue or another. It can often be difficult to glean the truth of any particular issue when dealing with people or groups that already have an agenda.
I also agree that the decision is something for the breed clubs to make. We have enough government intrusion in our lives as it is. Informed individuals should be able to make the decision for themselves.
I'm not sure what conditions were in place in Europe at the time they banned docking but from looking at the info in the pdf much of what they are referring to were truly horrible cases of mutilation done by farmers and apparently individuals that had no medical training.
I have seen some tiny nubs on dogs that have been docked by puppy mill operators and that is an issue all in it's self. There are many problems in that area.
I'm not sure how much breeding you do but I certainly believe you love your animals and would not subject them to some horrible procedure just to be able to enter them in various AKC functions. While I would not make that assumption of all people who show I have known breeders in my lifetime that were very dedicated to their breed and would never have let their animals be harmed in order to enter the show ring.

I breed rarely. And I am very very selective. I can afford to be, as I don't make my living from dogs! They are my passion, not my grocery bill!

And no, I would never subject my dogs to inhumane practices. Which is why I research and try to learn all I can about various topics.