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08-16-2011, 02:21 PM | #1 |
YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Reading, PA, USA
Posts: 258
| Where Did the Gold Come From? I have been wondering where all the non standard colors in the yorkie comes from. Parti - I get that. You breed FOR a certain trait, you'll get it. To this day Rotts, Dobes, and other black and tan breeds will throw mismarked pups that have a bit of white on the face, chest or feet, and I can see how breeding for those mismarks can cause not only a greater occurrence of the color, but can intensify the expression. Chocolate - I get that as well, Again, many black and tan breeds carry the dilute that causes chocolate. You have red dobes for example, and even red Rotts (thought they are far rarer). What I am having trouble with is where does the gold come from? Specifically the born golden dogs. How long has it been acknowledged that these dogs have been popping up in Yorkie lines from the beginning, as has been said for the Partis? Every site I have read that discusses coat color variation ONLY talks about where the parti colors come from.. I can accept the chocolates, because I understand the inheritance of the dilution gene, and again, breeding for that color causes a greater expression of the color. But I am stuck on the Goldens.. Especially the ones that are gold from birth. I can't find any information on where they came from, not even through searching this forum. Can anyone clue me in on this? |
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08-16-2011, 05:35 PM | #2 |
Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 27,448
| I believe that they are a gift from God.
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08-16-2011, 05:59 PM | #3 |
Living In Paradise! Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Ewa Beach on the island of Oahu
Posts: 3,588
| I believe you are right BUT...I believe all Yorkies are a gift from God!
__________________ Aloha & Have a wonderful day! Roni~ Ahi Shibi Roxie Heart Alize & Prada |
08-16-2011, 06:02 PM | #4 |
Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 27,448
| Very true.
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08-16-2011, 06:10 PM | #5 |
I ♥ Maci & Mojo Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Morris, IL, USA
Posts: 856
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__________________ Gina ~Mojo , Maci ~ Sweetie, Katie, Coco Chanel, & Figaro |
08-16-2011, 07:40 PM | #6 |
YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Reading, PA, USA
Posts: 258
| I am not going to disagree, but I'd still like some concrete genetic information about the occurrence of solid gold dogs in yorkies. Where it might have came from? How often has this color variation been appearing, so far as anyone knows? As an amateur student of genetics, I find the gold coloration fascinating, and would love to know more about them. |
08-16-2011, 07:48 PM | #7 |
Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 27,448
| Maybe your local library can help? Or, better yet, Borders is going out of business. I was there today and everything was 30% off. Bet you can get some great deals on books about the topic.
__________________ |
08-16-2011, 07:54 PM | #8 |
I ♥ Joey & Ralphie! Donating Member | From my understanding the gold is just an incorrect hair growth pattern, the gold should only be on legs and head only and instead it's all over their bodies. Yorkies are kind of unique in the dog world because color is supposed to be in very specific places.
__________________ NancyJoey Proud members of the CrAzYcLuB and YAP! ** Just Say No to Puppymills – Join YAP! Yorkshire Terrier Club of America – Breeder Referrals |
08-16-2011, 08:00 PM | #9 |
Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: NC
Posts: 108
| Forget the books, just understand that when two dogs get together the offspring will get what is dominant, and in some cases it is a 50/50 toss up. |
08-16-2011, 08:11 PM | #10 |
Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: S. W. Suburbs of Chicago, IL
Posts: 12,235
| My gold came from the LaPorte County Animal Shelter. The price of Gold was very reasonable that day. Bogey was only $65 with a $40 refund after his neuter. I really hit the jackpot with my little guy.
__________________ “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” Mark Twain |
08-16-2011, 08:13 PM | #11 |
Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 27,448
| He is precious! And what a deal!
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08-16-2011, 08:19 PM | #12 |
♥ Maximo and Teddy Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 25,041
| Priceless! Bogey is a beautiful boy.
__________________ Kristin, Max and Teddy |
08-16-2011, 08:22 PM | #13 |
Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: S. W. Suburbs of Chicago, IL
Posts: 12,235
| Thank you I love my boy
__________________ “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” Mark Twain |
08-17-2011, 03:12 AM | #14 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Virginia
Posts: 923
| There are 2 different ways to produce gold colored dogs. Yorkshire terriers have a gene known as the Agouti allele (A). This Agouti gene is a gene that controls the amount, location or pattern of black hairs displayed on the dog. The Agouti allele has been mapped to dog chromosome 24. Most Yorkshire terriers have an Agouti gene that's often referred to as the Saddle or Black and Tan gene; it's gene marker is “at”. This gene causes our dogs to display the typical blue/black and tan markings but some yorkshire terriers display another Agouti allele known as Sable, which doesn't produce the traditional “saddles” seen in most yorkies, instead it displays black hairs of various degrees, sprinkled though out their golden/tan coats. This gene marker is known as “ay.” The “ay” Sable is dominant to “at” Saddle and if the dog has 1 copy of the “ay” gene, the dog will be Sable colored (you do NOT need 2 copies of the "ay" gene to produce a sable golden pup - ONLY 1 copy if the gene is needed). A traditional colored puppy who has one sable parent, does NOT CARRY for the sable "ay" gene as so many people advertise. If a traditional colored puppy has the "ay" gene, they will be sable colored, not traditional colored. A dog who is "ayay" often times has minimal black sabling in their coats and are sometimes called "clear coated sables". Another gene that is effecting the black markings in our Yorkies is the Extension Allele (E) and this gene affects the Agouti gene, the Extension gene has been mapped to chromosome 5. The Extension gene has two common alleles, “E” and “e”. When a dog is “EE” or “Ee” in their genetic makeup, they will display the normal black markings caused by the Agouti allele but in dogs who are “ee”, no black hairs will be displayed on the dog and the dog will be clear red or yellow in color. It's noted in other breeds that one way to try to guess if your clear coated golden is “ayay” or “ee” is by checking the color of the dogs whiskers. In other breeds, a dog who is “ee” will have white or tan whiskers but dogs who are “ayay” often have black whiskers. In dogs who are “ee” there will be no production of black hair. There are other genes and gene modifiers that will affect the intensity of red or yellow in the dog, and that's how we gets shades that range from nearly white to blond to rich dark gold. First photos displays clear golds and blond caused by ee and 2nd photo displays traditional and sable puppies.
__________________ Sue White www.pinehavenyorkies.com Colorful Yorkshire Terrier Club www.colorfulyorkie.com |
08-17-2011, 05:08 AM | #15 |
YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Reading, PA, USA
Posts: 258
| I see some of you are having a bit of fun at my expense. I can take a joke as well as any one else can, but really, is this a way to treat someone legitimately looking for information? @ladyjane There is nothing in any book I have found that explains where the gold coloring comes from, let alone the born gold Yorkies. There are small explanations about where parti color comes from and in MY personal experience and knowledge, I can guess where chocolate comes from. What I cannot understand is where gold comes from, and no one, not even the color breeders have any explanation that I have found. @Nancy1999 Thank you. I actually saw today a "teapot" Yorkie (a big and lively boy he was too) today that has the gold coloration coming in down the spine. I forget who it was, but someone here asked about that and was told that some Yorkies will turn solid gold as they age, as that spine color can increase with age and over take all the steel blue of the back and sides. Could it be that gold born Yorkies are dogs that have expressed at birth the modifier gene that causes solid gold coloration at maturity? It is a supposition on my part to think that they may be related, but as I have had no information for or against supporting that idea, it's only a tenuous theory at best. While there are other black and tan breeds, the Yorkie is the only black and tan that has the very specific color change at maturity, so far as I have found (with the possible exception of the Silky). Kerry Blues are another breed that are black at birth and blue as adults, but they are solid, without the tan points. Though I expect that it is possible that black and tan mismarks can and have been born, especially since a not too in depth search for information reveals this tidbit about the Kerry "The first probable literary references to the Kerry Blue dates from 1847: the author describes a bluish slate coloured dog, marked with darker blotches and patches, and often with tan about the legs and muzzle." And also "Colour: Blue of any shade with or without black points. Black is permissible only up to the age of 18 months, as is also a shade of tan." Also it is said in some places that the "black and tan terrier" was used in the formation of the breed, which also enhances the likelihood of black and tan mismarks in the Kerry Blue, which would then lighten like the Yorkie. However, not only do Yorkies have the color change from black and tan to blue and gold, they have a modifier that completely changes the PLACEMENT of the coloration from the typical tan points at birth to the full gold head as adults. And the only other breed that may also exhibit that kind of color migration insofar as I can guess, is again, the Silky. That is fascinating on it's own, and I confess to being mystified by what modifier would cause such a change. Of course the steel blue is likely caused by the "G" greying gene, but what causes the color migration of the head? I don't yet know. @Grendel When I say I am an amateur student of genetics, I mean to say I have no formal training at it. However, I have MORE than a working knowledge of how genetics work, especially simple Mendelian genetics, which SEEMS to be how the gold expression works. It is FAR more complicated than the pups get what is dominant. They may get a double recessive instead, they can inherit several modifiers both dominant and recessive, along with the double recessive. A good example would be a liver and tan brindle. Black and tan (recessive), the liver dilution gene (recessive) and the brindle modifier (dominant).. This is also assuming I am trying to breed dogs. I have no intentions at this time to go back to breeding. I have done my time in the trenches, as it were, breeding dogs for about 17 years. As my last litter reaches their twilight years, and I get word back of the exploits of their grand children and great grand children, I may feel a sense of nostalgia, but no tugging to pull me back in that direction of my life. My breeding endeavors are strictly limited to betta fish, (another intriguing venture into the world of genetics, and the only one I am interested in pursuing). I am a pet owner, and dog enthusiast, and as I said, a student of genetics. The gold color fascinates me, as I can't understand where it comes from. Understand I am not casting any asperations on the purity of gold colored Yorkies. Understand I am not looking into this because I intend on breeding, though if I were, my apologizes to the color breeders, I wouldn't be interesting in breeding non standard colored dogs, because showing has always been a part of my end goal, and I believe that conformation showing is a part of the total package EVERY dog should have in order to breed. I am only asking because I have not been able to find any information anywhere as to where this color comes from, not even on color breeder sites. How can such a non standard color burst on the scene and there be NO information about it? That puzzles me completely. I have found information on red Rotts, on black and tan Labs, white Dobes, merle Chihuahuas, blue Vizslas.. even black Boxers. But nothing on gold Yorkies. I thought, as my outside searches came to naught, not only in books, but online, that THIS would be a place to go to gain some insight on this coloration. As my search of this site yielded nothing, I hoped that by ASKING, I would learn something about this color. I was not expecting jokes, distraction and derailment. To wit, on THOSE answers, I am greatly disappointed. To those that truly tried to help me, I am grateful. If anyone would care to enter into an informative discussion of the gold coloration, or point me more closely in the direction where I might find information, I would be very appreciative of your time and assistance. ETA: Thank you Pinehaven for your post. I do appreciate it, and it answers my question on the Gold Yorkie. My post and yours may well have been being written at the some time, so I missed your reply by the time I submitted. Last edited by Belle Noir; 08-17-2011 at 05:12 AM. Reason: For clarifacation |
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