Where Did the Gold Come From?

[gracielove]

It's true there are enough facebook pages in the name of various dogs and other pets that one more would not hurt. Even a fictitious pet would do.
I'm not one to post info about myself but the information available on facebook can be very helpful at times. There are a very wide variety of interests represented there including genetics and many of the different branches of science.

[Belle Noir]

I unfortunately, have a way of making a huge splash. It isn't that I mean to, I just do.
I am only here to learn more about Yorkies, and if I have a chance to pass on some of what I have learned in my years of breeding, showing and rescuing, as well as things I have found researching and learning things for the fun of learning, I will. And if I have an opinion, I will share it.
I am not about breeding anymore. That aspect of my life is, as far as I can see, over. Even though today, Pixie got a VERY good conformation evaluation from a Code of Ethics breeder, she will not be bred, as she is charted to max at about 3 lbs. And also, even though she may have the phenotype to win, she IS a puppy mill dog. That precludes the likelihood of her having the GENOTYPE to breed.
I am likened to Red Brucie, the oogly father of the modern Cocker Spaniel. Very much not standard, but he had the PEDIGREE of champions, and produced dogs that made their stamp on the breed. Pixie is much the opposite, even if she was a winning dog, she doesn't have the pedigree to reproduce herself, even IF she were of size to breed. Why take the chance?
I never bred for a pet market, I bred knowing that this litter could be a litter of champions, because the full potential was there in the pedigree.

However, I am well versed on general dog knowledge. Long before I loved Cresteds, Yorkies, Beaucerons, or any one breed in particular, I loved dogs in general, so one day may find me reading about Salukis and Afghans, jumping from one site to another.. 20 tabs open all about sight hounds, reading, cross referencing.. And other day may find me reading up on BSL.. The day after I may be reading on genetic diseases.. I find all aspects of DOG fascinating.

I also have an open mind. Someone once said don't have too open a mind, or your brain will fall out, and that made sense to me.. so I do try base my reasoning on logic. I myself have a knee jerk reaction to certain things. But aside from my emotional response to something, I try to see it from an intellectual, a logical and rational point of view. (and no my RL don't call me Spock, I am actually too volatile for that, lol.)
But tone can be difficult to ascertain by words alone. So much of our language clues are tonal, and conveyed via body language and facial expression. The lack of that in a written medium can cause misunderstandings that can set the stage for later interactions.

And yes, I talk too much sometimes, lol. I know this, but I seem to have two extremes. One sentence blurbs that have little heft and substance, and severe wall 'o textitis, lolol.
It's not so much that I enjoy a debate, I enjoy engaging with people and talking. A phone call from me meant to be 5 minutes long can easily turn into a 2 hour conversation about 40 different things, lol.
This IS a social medium. I am being social.. Even if I have a minority view. Please don't misunderstand me. But I have gotten the distinct impression that BECAUSE I am new, I should not have an opinion that is different from those that have been here longer, even though I have been involved in dogs for quite a while and have as much reknown in MY breed as some others here have in theirs. It's almost as though because I don't have a large post count and no one knows me in this community, I should not be taken seriously, or I have an ulterior moment, or I'm just here to troll.

I'm not. I am here to learn. If I can share some of the things I have learned over the years, I'm willing to to do so. If I have an opinion, I feel like so long as I am respectful in my expression of that opinion, be it in line with the general community, or one that is of it's minority, I should be able to share it without feeling as though I am wrong because I don't have the post count that says this person has been here for a long time, they know where of they speak.
And if I wall 'o text, it's because I have much to say. I try to talk dog with my boyfriend.. But he's not a DOG PERSON.. He doesn't GET it. And I can't go to my former dog places to talk dog. OMG for almost 8 years I have not talked dog to ANYONE. My whole LIFE was dogs and I miss it. I miss talking to people that understand how puppy breath is the best smell in the world. That walking 3 groups of dogs, three times a day for a half hour each, and a total of 4 and a half hours of dog walking a day isn't a chore.
I miss talking about bloodlines and pedigrees and what breeding will likely click with this dog or that bitch, and how someone should cross to this line, because their line is getting a little fine boned, and did you see the head on that last litter so and so produced? They should never repeat that because the HEADS on those dogs...
I miss talking with people that don't flinch when explained what a bully stick is, or turn into a 13 year old when hearing about catching a squirt right in the eye the last time you helped with a breeding and the stud missed his mark.
If you're a dog person, you GET IT, if you're not, then you won't.
Dogs aren't just pets, they are a passion for me. I realize some people are exasperated by me, that most people don't know what to make of me. What you see, is the outburst of nearly 8 years of suppressed PASSION exploding. And all explosions are rather messy, even if that wasn't the intent.

I would like to thank everyone for this exchange. If I misunderstood some of you, I apologize. If I have made some of you feel uncomfortable, I again, apologize. I am here for the long haul, and I hope in time you will come to see me for who I am. I am kind, funny, intellectual, giving, blunt, passionate, honest, and stubborn..
And I confess, even to my real life friends, a bit of an enigma, lol.

[gidget529]

I'm puzzled again - not bc you're an enigma to me, but bc some of this does not make logical sense. Why did you not buy a yorkie from a Code of Ethics breeder? Certainly as a former breeder/exhibitor and being someone who loves to learn you should know the importance of researching healthy lines and a line that is pleasing to your eye's aesthetics before you purchase a puppy. Not to mention, many ethical breeders are very much against puppymills and are attempting to get legislation passed so that it is harder to get away w running one of these.

Perhaps if you are looking for a "good old fashioned discussion/debate" on genetics and breeding topics, you should post in the Breeder's Talk section. These are ppl w exp in breeding (many w exhibiting exp also) whom you might find things in common with. I am sure they would be very interested in learning your background and sharing theirs.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by gidget529

I'm puzzled again - not bc you're an enigma to me, but bc some of this does not make logical sense. Why did you not buy a yorkie from a Code of Ethics breeder? Certainly as a former breeder/exhibitor and being someone who loves to learn you should know the importance of researching healthy lines and a line that is pleasing to your eye's aesthetics before you purchase a puppy. Not to mention, many ethical breeders are very much against puppymills and are attempting to get legislation passed so that it is harder to get away w running one of these.

Perhaps if you are looking for a "good old fashioned discussion/debate" on genetics and breeding topics, you should post in the Breeder's Talk section. These are ppl w exp in breeding (many w exhibiting exp also) whom you might find things in common with. I am sure they would be very interested in learning your background and sharing theirs.

Gidget529, the problem with posting in the Breeders section is that most breeders do not understand, have not researched nor care to research the genes behind the off colored golds. I think Belle Noire was able to find the simple, accurate, scientific based answers to her questions right here in the general discussions.

[gidget529]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Gidget529, the problem with posting in the Breeders section is that most breeders do not understand, have not researched nor care to research the genes behind the off colored golds. I think Belle Noire was able to find the simple, accurate, scientific based answers to her questions right here in the general discussions.

I know of YTCA breeders who are quite knowledgable in the genetics behind this breed, including illnesses, coloring, etc. I think it is a misnomer that just bc someone believes they should not breed for "fault" that they are not aware and knowledgable about the genetics behind the coloring. The YTCA breeders I know are very well-read and have studied this breed extensively, as well some are published in well-respected printed media.

She also has a traditionally colored yorkie and claims to be looking for ppl to discuss breeding, exhibiting and genetics with. Who better than other breeder/exhibitors?

I have already referred her to you for your perspective on color genetics. I think I have provided suggestions that provide a well-rounded point of view.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by gidget529

I know of YTCA breeders who are quite knowledgable in the genetics behind this breed, including illnesses, coloring, etc. I think it is a misnomer that just bc someone believes they should not breed for "fault" that they are not aware and knowledgable about the genetics behind the coloring. The YTCA breeders I know are very well-read and have studied this breed extensively, as well some are published in well-respected printed media.

She also has a traditionally colored yorkie and claims to be looking for ppl to discuss breeding, exhibiting and genetics with. Who better than other breeder/exhibitors?

I have already referred her to you for your perspective on color genetics. I think I have provided suggestions that provide a well-rounded point of view.

I'm not sure why people always tend to think there's some sinister plot, or something unscrupulous going on, when someone asks a simple (controversial) question?

I am sure there are YTCA members who are well versed in coat color genetics but unfortunately I've not been able to find one YTCA members site that gives explanation about the 2 different genes that are causing gold coloring in our dogs. The Show breeders on YT have often referred to the gold coloring as traditionals who "ran" gold as they got older but I've seen no actual and scientifically documented explanation as to how they were genetically "born gold". Maybe I am wrong, we have had the gold question raised here before, I have just not seen the ay and ee genes discussed at length by the YTCA members in the breeders section before.

Here's the lab that I use to coat color test my dogs:

A Locus
E Locus

Maybe we should all run a full coat color screening on our dogs, I'm sure there would be a few very surprised breeders who didn't realize one of their dogs were carriers for "undesirable" coat color genes.

[Belle Noir]

I didn't buy Pixie. My boyfriend did.
He got tired of me crying about missing my dogs and how having a dog would help one of my daughters with her behavioral issues as an emotional support animal and said I'm going to get you a puppy. I honestly didn't believe he would do it, but somehow he did.

HE didn't know any better, the guy said he'd bred dogs for 13 years, and the puppies were raised in the house.. You know, the usual shpeel... And my boyfriend didn't know, he's not a dog person.
He caught the save the puppies from Ghana scam, but this guy snookered him, especially since one of his co-workers claimed she had bought a puppy from him.. That was male, and then miraculously had a sex change a month later when he asked about her puppy.

Until I saw all her paperwork, I didn't know she was a puppymill product. What convinces me of that is that this guy lives in MD, but her vet check papers are for a vet in Ohio... My boyfriend looked over her paperwork and didn't catch that. I actually didn't catch it at first, just scanned it to see if the shots were to date, and if there were any problems I should look for. I didn't see anything, the shots were to date, I put the vet papers away until later. And later is when it was caught.

It was set for my boyfriend to see the guy in his home, and check out the parents and the premises and the guy changed his mind at the last minute saying oh, you could try to rob me and steal my puppies, and met my boyfriend some where neutral.
Again, WE would have known better, but he didn't, and he didn't want my help, he wanted to do this thing for me and my daughters and we have been dog hungry for so long, that I didn't care. I know that is selfish of me, but I didn't.

I honestly didn't think he would actually get the puppy until he told me he had her. And by then all the hindsight of I should have <___> is of no consequences, because what is gone and past is gone and past.

That is why I have said from the BEGINNING the guy my boyfriend bought her from was her broker, not her breeder.

Also, and I have said this before. I have not shown AKC. The fact is, I wanted a "practice" dog. One to learn how to show AKC on, to get my foot in the door, so to speak.
But also.. I didn't want to have to deal with co-ownerships and sterilization contracts and such like, just to be able to show a dog that I know isn't show quality.

My boyfriend wanted to do something for me to make me happy. I admit to the selfishness of allowing him to do this for me. I will admit to the dismay of realizing that my selfishness put money in the hands of a puppy mill broker.
I wish it wasn't so, I wish she WAS the product of someone that just bred a few litters a year from their home. But she's not, and I am not ashamed of allowing my boyfriend to buy me a puppy from someone that wasn't a code of ethics breeder, nor am I ashamed of the fact that she very likely came from a puppy mill.

I have found, (granted AFTER the fact) two wonderful people that have taken the time to talk to me about my dog, and who I can go to with questions. But I don't fool myself. The time spent on someone THINKING about getting a dog is usually spent trying to persuade people NOT to get a dog. MOST breeders are like that, tell you all the bad news first, so that only the ones with the most heart sticks in there, still determined. I know that, I did it all the time, I STILL do it. I didn't need anyone telling me all the "cons" of a yorkie, I already knew them.
However, once someone does actually have a dog, the time spent talking to someone knowledgeable in a breed is spent on the dog, on the breed. Again, this is by my personal knowledge and observations.

So far, Pixie has been the picture of health, I lucked up because conformationally, she isn't too bad. Though we would have shown if she were the most hideous Yorkie to have the misfortune of being whelped, just for the fun of it.
And I am aware of the potential issues in the breed. I am also prepared financially to handle them should they arise.

As for me asking the question I asked. Had I found the information ANYWHERE, I would not have needed to ask it. Simply saying off color yorkies have been born, are being born, and will continue to be born, isn't answering my question.
I know they have.
But that still didn't answer my question about the genetic make up of these dogs. ALL any place that brought up the off colored dogs said were these colors happen as a rarity, sell as pets, and never repeat the breeding.
That is pretty much what I found here, though I accept that there is a thread somewhere that discusses the golden in depth. I just haven't found it.

I will also note, I take exception to the word "claims" with it's implication that I am lying.
I have found not one, not two, not three, but no less than FIVE COE breeders in my area, one of them a highly noted personage in the breed.
I have been in PERSONAL face to face contact with two of them, and in phone contact with the third.
I have even SAID this.
THESE are the people I go to with my conformation questions. They would know. And they are the ones I go to with my showing questions. They are the ones that are teaching me how to properly stack Pixie and train her for showing.
Am I ONLY to utilize the knowledge of these people to further my learning goals?
And YES I HAVE asked them about the genetics of the gold. And the answer?
They're born, it happens, sell them as pets and never repeat the breeding.
They ARE the ones I go to about showing. Nowhere on this forum have I asked anything about showing, and you know what, even WITH these two people kindly helping me in person, and one on the phone, why should I NOT ask my showing questions here?

I don't think anywhere I have said is the only things I am looking for on this site. I DO believe I have said many times I am interested in EVERYTHING and ANYTHING Yorkie.

Let me say it again, since so many people have missed it.
I am NOT interested in breeding Yorkies. Not now, and I have no intentions in the future. Wanting to know about the genetics of the Yorkie does NOT mean I want to breed them, it ONLY means I want to know about the genetics, especially as I have said several times I am NOT interested in breeding them.

I breed betta fish..
Do you know what is involved with raising ONE spawn of betta fish?
Let me remind you, it's not 3-6 puppies, is up to TWO HUNDRED OR MORE fry you will have to separate into their own tanks, feed, and do massive daily water changes on for a MINIMUM of 2.5 months before they are saleable, or showable.
Oh, also, they only eat live food for the first MONTH of their lives.
That is 3-4 hatch set ups for brine shrimp a day per spawn.
Do you know what is involved with hatching brine shrimp?
Lots of water and lots of salt, or you can possibly use baking soda, and that's it.. But then you have to watch for shells when you drain the bbs from the cysts.. Unless of course you decap them... which involves bleach, and dechlor or vinegar which MIGHT cause of a release of chlorine gas if you're not careful and don't know what you're doing. And if you don't know what you're doing, you'll kill the eggs you're trying to decap.

And this is if you don't have a male that kills the female, or eats the eggs or eats the fry.. or a heater that cooks your grow out, or bigger babies eating little ones, or taking chunks from fins, or velvet, ich, swimbladder disorder..
AND let's take into account that of all the ones that make it to maturity, few of them will be show quality, and even fewer the color you needed an adult pair of that spawn to be to further your breeding goals.
Oh, and you don't want to breed your show quality fish if you're going to show them, because breeding usually involves a lot of ripped fins. And you don't want to show your brood stock more than twice, because all the bagging, shipping, tanking, carding, rebagging, and reshipping can stress your fish to where they die.
Not to mention that fish DO die at shows, fish ARE stolen at shows... So you take the chance on breeding your less than perfect specimens if you want to show the perfect ones, and HOPE the fish will still breed when you get it home, if it doesn't die or pick up some disease, OR you breed your perfect fish at risk of sacrificing your showing season.

So that's why you want to have more than one spawn going at the some time. Usually 2 or 3.
Did I mention upwards of TWO HUNDRED OR MORE fry per spawn?
No, I have NO time or interest in breeding anything other than my bettas.. they take up ALL my breeding time.

You DON'T get fish like this from your local petstore. These fish have pedigrees every bit as extensive as any high quality dog.

[kpstoybox]

[QUOTE=Pinehaven;3639771]I'm not sure why people always tend to think there's some sinister plot, or something unscrupulous going on, when someone asks a simple (controversial) question?

I am sure there are YTCA members who are well versed in coat color genetics but unfortunately I've not been able to find one YTCA members site that gives explanation about the 2 different genes that are causing gold coloring in our dogs. The Show breeders on YT have often referred to the gold coloring as traditionals who "ran" gold as they got older but I've seen no actual and scientifically documented explanation as to how they were genetically "born gold". Maybe I am wrong, we have had the gold question raised here before, I have just not seen the ay and ee genes discussed at length by the YTCA members in the breeders section before.

Here's the lab that I use to coat color test my dogs:

A Locus
E Locus

Maybe we should all run a full coat color screening on our dogs, I'm sure there would be a few very surprised breeders who didn't realize one of their dogs were carriers for "undesirable" coat color genes. [/QUOTE]

Amen...Some would be VERY surprised indeed!!

[concretegurl]

I'm confused I thought the answer was it is a naturally occuring mutated (or naturally mutating) gene....it just happens that way.

Lady Jane had it right, and Pinehaven did too; such things can be very manipulated with an understanding of genetic.

I used to know a Russian Dwarf hamper breeder she got really into color mutations based off natural mutations of the albino gene any-who she made purple hamsters one time...

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

I'm confused I thought the answer was it is a naturally occuring mutated (or naturally mutating) gene....it just happens that way.

Lady Jane had it right, and Pinehaven did too; such things can be very manipulated with an understanding of genetic.

I used to know a Russian Dwarf hamper breeder she got really into color mutations based off natural mutations of the albino gene any-who she made purple hamsters one time...

No, the gold coloring is caused when a dog has one copy of the ay gene or 2 copies of the recessive e gene. These are actual coat color genes seen in dogs - genes that can be tested for through DNA analysis. The gold coloring is not caused by a gene that has undergone a mutation.

Many of the early foundation dogs used in the make up of the breed were sable in color, otterhounds came/come in sable, skye's came/come in sable and who knows what other off colors were carried by the unpedigreed foundation dogs, dogs who may have seemed to be the desired color but carried recessive genes for other colors.

[Grendel]

Sorry Belle Noir, I wasn't making fun, it is just that dogs have been bred to improve their breed so much, you just don't know what is really in them, and sometimes something unexpected pops up. Sadly a lot of the times it isn't a good thing like an unusual color, but a bad thing like an ailment of some kind. See if you can find a 1900ish picture of a yorkie and compare it to today's dogs. You won't recognize the yorkie from 1900.

[concretegurl]

Thanks Pinehaven! I got it now.
It was the Blue I was thinking of huh?
Or was it the traditional that turn white later...?

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Thanks Pinehaven! I got it now.
It was the Blue I was thinking of huh?
Or was it the traditional that turn white later...?

Confusing huh??

Blues are caused by specific genes too, their born blue color is a result of having 2 copies of the Dilution Allele - they would be "dd" in their makeup. This gene dilutes black skin and pigment to blue. This is another gene that can be coat color tested for at various DNA labs.

I'm not sure what causes the traditionals to turn white (or would that be what they call "running gold"?)

[Teresa Ford]

Thank You Sue. I have learned some new things following this thread.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Wow.. what a great thread! Beta fish ha.. had no idea what went into breeding them..to much for me.

I totally agree with color screening yorkies.. amazing what maybe found. Very interesting colors showing up now that people aren't hiding what is being produced.. and out of well know show lines.. Love it!

Diana