Where Did the Gold Come From?

[ladyjane]

Actually, I did point you in a direction. I don't normally engage in "debates" as you refer to the exchanges you have had on YT. I try to keep it simple and offer what I know and then move on. You do seem to have an agenda of sorts and I hope that it serves the community well.
Have a great day!

[gidget529]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

My gold came from the LaPorte County Animal Shelter. The price of Gold was very reasonable that day. Bogey was only $65 with a $40 refund after his neuter. I really hit the jackpot with my little guy.

What a handsome boy!! I think you paid a more than reasonable price for Gold!

[gracielove]

If you want a really serious answer to your question you might have better success in the breeders section. Many people just love their dogs and are not into all the genetic details.
Obviously pinehaven knows a bit about the subject.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by gracielove

Obviously pinehaven knows a bit about the subject.

Thanks, it's taken a lot of research to figure the gold gene (s) out in our dogs but luckily there are a number of labs who can test for these colors and the clear coated golden pups are testing "ee" and adult golden dogs (who's sable markings often times grow out, causing the "ay" sable dog to LOOK like a clear gold) are testing out to be "ay".

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by gracielove

If you want a really serious answer to your question you might have better success in the breeders section. Many people just love their dogs and are not into all the genetic details.

Excellent advice.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Belle Noir

How can such a non standard color burst on the scene and there be NO information about it? That puzzles me completely. I have found information on red Rotts, on black and tan Labs, white Dobes, merle Chihuahuas, blue Vizslas.. even black Boxers.
But nothing on gold Yorkies.

I thought, as my outside searches came to naught, not only in books, but online, that THIS would be a place to go to gain some insight on this coloration. As my search of this site yielded nothing, I hoped that by ASKING, I would learn something about this color.
I was not expecting jokes, distraction and derailment. To wit, on THOSE answers, I am greatly disappointed. To those that truly tried to help me, I am grateful.

If anyone would care to enter into an informative discussion of the gold coloration, or point me more closely in the direction where I might find information, I would be very appreciative of your time and assistance.

ETA: Thank you Pinehaven for your post. I do appreciate it, and it answers my question on the Gold Yorkie.
My post and yours may well have been being written at the some time, so I missed your reply by the time I submitted.

These off colors have been appearing since the beginning of the breed, many of the dogs who started this breed came in sable or golden colors. It's been discussed on YT that in the 1930's there was a breeder who was breeding gold yorkies exclusively but AKC put an end to that for them.

Normally, when an off color appeared in a litter, the pups were disposed of (in one way or another) ... there are many references in books from the 1800 - 1900's that state this fact and since genetics was not well understood, many felt that the incorrect color was weaker or defective.

[Taryn0405]

Scrolling finger hurts.
Anywho after typing "gold gene in yorkie coloring" some websites
Goldenray Yorkies | Yorkie Breeders Advice Training Information Tips
Yorkshire Terrier Club of America


Both have additional information on the allele. However, another resource you could utilize is a breeder since the topic is somewhat hard to find info on without going to going and getting a book on breed genetics.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Taryn0405

Scrolling finger hurts.
Anywho after typing "gold gene in yorkie coloring" some websites
Goldenray Yorkies | Yorkie Breeders Advice Training Information Tips
Yorkshire Terrier Club of America


Both have additional information on the allele. However, another resource you could utilize is a breeder since the topic is somewhat hard to find info on without going to going and getting a book on breed genetics.

Quickly scanning through the sites you posted, I saw no information on the ay or e allele? Could you please provide a direct link to that information? I did see on the YTCA site, the history of the Yorkshire terrier where it says the three breeds of dogs who THEY believe began the breed were the Clydesdale, the Old English Terrier and the Waterside Terrier. Waterside Terriers are products of the Otterhound, Otterhounds come in many colors including, chocolate, parti, golden and sable ...
Otterhound Colors

Any website on canine coat color genetics can give you information on the genes that cause yellow/gold/red coloring in dogs, here's a good site to start at:
Dog Coat Colour Genetics

[Belle Noir]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Actually, I did point you in a direction. I don't normally engage in "debates" as you refer to the exchanges you have had on YT. I try to keep it simple and offer what I know and then move on. You do seem to have an agenda of sorts and I hope that it serves the community well.
Have a great day!

And I addressed you directly.
"@ladyjane
There is nothing in any book I have found that explains where the gold coloring comes from, let alone the born gold Yorkies.
There are small explanations about where parti color comes from and in MY personal experience and knowledge, I can guess where chocolate comes from. What I cannot understand is where gold comes from, and no one, not even the color breeders have any explanation that I have found."

Simple and to the point. As I was asking a question, there would be no debate, would there? I did thank those who truly tried to help me.
I had and still consider you one of those who attempted to assist me. And I wonder why you would be so defensive about something that wasn't directed at you.

As for any "agenda". I have none, other than to learn about this breed that has brought such joy into my life in such a short period of time. That I do not accept things at face value, that I have done research that supports my points, and that I do not consider myself a supplicant at the table in amongst people that have known each other for a while, and have their own way of doing things, and unwritten rules, does not mean I have an agenda.
Just because I do not and have never adhered to the status quo, does not mean I have an agenda. If you believe I do have an agenda, you may feel free to PM me, and reveal to me what agenda I seem to have. I believe that if I am going to be accused of having an agenda, other than what I have already stated in any of my posts, I have a right to know what they are, or are perceived to be, and perhaps clear any misconceptions about why I am here.

You may not engage in "debates". I think that people may have opposing views and still remain polite and respectful. In real life, we do not always agree, why should it be so online? I am who I am, online, and in real life, and if I have a point of view, in it's proper forum, I will express it. The use of the word debate is equal to discussion, and is this not the General Yorkie Discussion Forum?

Thank you Gracielove.
I did look through the Breeder Section, and did not find what I was looking for. That is why I decided to ask here. Also, seeing as many others have asked questions regarding coat color in this forum, it was my thought that this would be the proper place to ask my question.

Last of all, I love my dog. She is an amazing little creature that makes me and my daughters so happy just by being her. And not only that, she is helping to heal the heart of a broken boy who has never known love from his own family. How can I not want to learn more about her, what makes her HER?
I have an inquisitive mind. I ask questions. I want to learn something new every day, and I go looking for that something, not waiting for it to fall on my lap by chance.
When something interests me, I try to learn more about it. I feel that by learning about it, I better appreciate its intricacies, whether it be a living creature like Pixie, Fred the turtle, or my bettas... or beading, small electronics, cooking...
That I am interested also in the genetic component of the Yorkie as a breed, doesn't mean I love my dog any less than anyone else on this forum. And should anyone not care to see what had been posted in reply to "Where Did The Gold Come From?" I believe the title would be enough to steer most away, and if not, my initial post explaining exactly what I meant by my title would deter the rest.

Pinehaven, again, thank you. I have not found the post on YT that you refer to, though I have been looking for information on Golds since before I joined the messageboard.
Perhaps I used too broad search terms or incorrect search parameters.. I confess I didn't read every post my searches uncovered, just the ones with titles that indicated they may be what I was looking for.

[Taryn0405]

The golden yorkie one I know talks about it being "gg" aka recessive. Refrencing red, golden, and blue Yorkies.

The Ytca, like you said just mentioned where the colors came from, like you said.

I simply stated that they, fogive me, the one website, talked about the recessive allele (not which allele specifically but recessive non the less). While the other just mentioned where the color could possibly come from, if she wanted to dive further into the other dog's genetics.

But like I stated, I think a breeder or an actual book on breed genetics would be a better place to start since search engiens only seem to be brining up limited information.

[gidget529]

To the OP, a google search shows up detailed gold genetic information available through Sue White. She has a facebook page you might want to look for where there are discussions on different coloring in yorkies.

Google also reveals Pinehaven's site to contain info on wanting to educate others in the different coloring of the yorkshire terrier. She has info quote from Sue White on her site and might also be a good person to contact for info about this topic (as directed by other posters).

Dr. Bell of Tufts School of Veterinary Medicine has done work in the field of canine genetics (including the yorkshire terrier). He has spoken in seminars for the YTCA. You may also want to look into his work.

[Belle Noir]

Originally Posted by Taryn0405

Scrolling finger hurts.
Anywho after typing "gold gene in yorkie coloring" some websites
Goldenray Yorkies | Yorkie Breeders Advice Training Information Tips
Yorkshire Terrier Club of America


Both have additional information on the allele. However, another resource you could utilize is a breeder since the topic is somewhat hard to find info on without going to going and getting a book on breed genetics.

I apologize for the (possible) double post.
Thank you Taryn.
The YTCA is the FIRST Yorkie website I ever visited. Through it I have found two reputable breeders that have been helping me through the "difficult" things, like OMG is THIS what they mean by COLOR BREAK? And Pixie WON'T EAT, what do I DO???!!! (this is the first week she was brought home, when I had to coax her to eat every bite, save for the gerber chicken she had to be hand fed.)
Thanks to their kindness, Pixie is a food hog, and I don't panic over every little thing. I have made them laugh at the noobness of some of my questions and impressed them with my knowledge in other areas. In fact, they let me know of a Yorkie Specialty in my area that I will be attended to learn even more about these wonderful dogs first hand. (This means I get to drool over them in real life, not just over pictures on the computer, lol).

Thank you again, Pinehaven.
A few of my favorite genetic sites are
Canine Coat Color Inheritance and Appearance - coat colors and coat color inheritance in dogs.
B/b, E/e, and Beyond
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Genetics.html

As these are general dog or other breed specific, I really wanted to speak to someone in the Yorkie community about Yorkies in particular, so I really do appreciate you taking the time to answer my question and more so, going further in depth with your answer after answering me the first time.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by gidget529

To the OP, a google search shows up detailed gold genetic information available through Sue White. She has a facebook page you might want to look for where there are discussions on different coloring in yorkies.

Google also reveals Pinehaven's site to contain info on wanting to educate others in the different coloring of the yorkshire terrier. She has info quote from Sue White on her site and might also be a good person to contact for info about this topic (as directed by other posters).

Dr. Bell of Tufts School of Veterinary Medicine has done work in the field of canine genetics (including the yorkshire terrier). He has spoken in seminars for the YTCA. You may also want to look into his work.

Thanks Gidget529 ... Pinehaven and Sue White are one in the same (Me) ;-)

The FB site is probably the Colorful Yorkshire Terriers group ... we had a nice discussion on Gold a while back.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by Belle Noir

I see some of you are having a bit of fun at my expense. I can take a joke as well as any one else can, but really, is this a way to treat someone legitimately looking for information?

@ladyjane
There is nothing in any book I have found that explains where the gold coloring comes from, let alone the born gold Yorkies.
There are small explanations about where parti color comes from and in MY personal experience and knowledge, I can guess where chocolate comes from. What I cannot understand is where gold comes from, and no one, not even the color breeders have any explanation that I have found.

@Nancy1999
Thank you. I actually saw today a "teapot" Yorkie (a big and lively boy he was too) today that has the gold coloration coming in down the spine. I forget who it was, but someone here asked about that and was told that some Yorkies will turn solid gold as they age, as that spine color can increase with age and over take all the steel blue of the back and sides.
Could it be that gold born Yorkies are dogs that have expressed at birth the modifier gene that causes solid gold coloration at maturity?
It is a supposition on my part to think that they may be related, but as I have had no information for or against supporting that idea, it's only a tenuous theory at best.
While there are other black and tan breeds, the Yorkie is the only black and tan that has the very specific color change at maturity, so far as I have found (with the possible exception of the Silky). Kerry Blues are another breed that are black at birth and blue as adults, but they are solid, without the tan points. Though I expect that it is possible that black and tan mismarks can and have been born, especially since a not too in depth search for information reveals this tidbit about the Kerry
"The first probable literary references to the Kerry Blue dates from 1847: the author describes a bluish slate coloured dog, marked with darker blotches and patches, and often with tan about the legs and muzzle."
And also
"Colour: Blue of any shade with or without black points. Black is permissible only up to the age of 18 months, as is also a shade of tan."
Also it is said in some places that the "black and tan terrier" was used in the formation of the breed, which also enhances the likelihood of black and tan mismarks in the Kerry Blue, which would then lighten like the Yorkie.
However, not only do Yorkies have the color change from black and tan to blue and gold, they have a modifier that completely changes the PLACEMENT of the coloration from the typical tan points at birth to the full gold head as adults. And the only other breed that may also exhibit that kind of color migration insofar as I can guess, is again, the Silky.
That is fascinating on it's own, and I confess to being mystified by what modifier would cause such a change.
Of course the steel blue is likely caused by the "G" greying gene, but what causes the color migration of the head? I don't yet know.

@Grendel
When I say I am an amateur student of genetics, I mean to say I have no formal training at it. However, I have MORE than a working knowledge of how genetics work, especially simple Mendelian genetics, which SEEMS to be how the gold expression works.
It is FAR more complicated than the pups get what is dominant. They may get a double recessive instead, they can inherit several modifiers both dominant and recessive, along with the double recessive. A good example would be a liver and tan brindle. Black and tan (recessive), the liver dilution gene (recessive) and the brindle modifier (dominant)..
This is also assuming I am trying to breed dogs. I have no intentions at this time to go back to breeding. I have done my time in the trenches, as it were, breeding dogs for about 17 years. As my last litter reaches their twilight years, and I get word back of the exploits of their grand children and great grand children, I may feel a sense of nostalgia, but no tugging to pull me back in that direction of my life. My breeding endeavors are strictly limited to betta fish, (another intriguing venture into the world of genetics, and the only one I am interested in pursuing).

I am a pet owner, and dog enthusiast, and as I said, a student of genetics.
The gold color fascinates me, as I can't understand where it comes from. Understand I am not casting any asperations on the purity of gold colored Yorkies. Understand I am not looking into this because I intend on breeding, though if I were, my apologizes to the color breeders, I wouldn't be interesting in breeding non standard colored dogs, because showing has always been a part of my end goal, and I believe that conformation showing is a part of the total package EVERY dog should have in order to breed.
I am only asking because I have not been able to find any information anywhere as to where this color comes from, not even on color breeder sites.

How can such a non standard color burst on the scene and there be NO information about it? That puzzles me completely. I have found information on red Rotts, on black and tan Labs, white Dobes, merle Chihuahuas, blue Vizslas.. even black Boxers.
But nothing on gold Yorkies.

I thought, as my outside searches came to naught, not only in books, but online, that THIS would be a place to go to gain some insight on this coloration. As my search of this site yielded nothing, I hoped that by ASKING, I would learn something about this color.
I was not expecting jokes, distraction and derailment. To wit, on THOSE answers, I am greatly disappointed. To those that truly tried to help me, I am grateful.

If anyone would care to enter into an informative discussion of the gold coloration, or point me more closely in the direction where I might find information, I would be very appreciative of your time and assistance.

ETA: Thank you Pinehaven for your post. I do appreciate it, and it answers my question on the Gold Yorkie.
My post and yours may well have been being written at the some time, so I missed your reply by the time I submitted.

What do you mean joke? My Golden Yorkie Bogey is NOT a joke! I love him very much whether or not he is a pound puppy. It's my belief he was either used for stud or they were planning on using him for a stud. He's lucky to have escaped into the country night to make him way to me.

[gidget529]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Thanks Gidget529 ... Pinehaven and Sue White are one in the same (Me) ;-)

The FB site is probably the Colorful Yorkshire Terriers group ... we had a nice discussion on Gold a while back.

You're welcome. Good to know the name association. Hopefully the OP will contact you so that you can share.