Yorkshire Terrier and the Parti/Tricolor

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

1. I've seen that too and thus I saw Parti's and Biewers as different types of Yorkies...from what I have heard directly from many Parti breeders enthusiasts etc. that's the basic idea, anything goes-Parti simply means naturally occurring fault, partially colored in some or any way-yes, even if the color difference from the standard is just the appearance of some white.

**Sayign that isn't very selective-well that seems so open in determining "selective" did you mean in breeding standards period, or just the color result and basing that as selective? If you meant just in the resulting coloration-well I think many (I don't dare say most as I can't speak for them) Part breeders celebrate whatever coloration occurs so they do not exercise "selectiveness" there., thus I assume Biewers were created directly from Partis-they were the result (I though they were crossed out to another breed) of selective Parti breeding-apparently I was wrong there-?-unless you talk to some Biewer breeders whom swear they were crossed out...making them 'not Yorkie' so confusing. ...

I will try to answer what I think your question may be...your wording is VERY confusing. My post said, "For Parti's it seems that "anything goes" as long as the dog has white on it. That does not seem like very selective. " I think that is simply stated but I will go into more detail. The Yorkshire Terrier standard requires VERY SPECIFIC guidelines as to the COLOR and placement of that COLOR on the dog. Breeders strive FIRST for health, then structure and the next priority would probably be COLOR. It takes such meticulous attention to detail looking for the right shades of dark steel blue and tan. You look for dogs that do not fade to silver, you look for dogs that do not stay pure black. You look for dogs whose tan, is rich but not red. You make sure the hairs are NOT entermingled. So many considerations and reasons to disqualify a dog from your breeding program if they are not showing as a prime example of the color and placement you want. Now enter the "parti" folks who just want to make sure white shows up somewhere on the dog. Who cares how much of which color? Who cares where the colors show up? Who cares if there are 2 or 3 colors? As I said, that does not seem very selective in ANY sense of the word. Breeding a purebred dog is not supposed to be an "anything goes" project -- it is supposed to be challenging and require meticulous attention & care. My opinion, but one shared by more than a few, I'm sure.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

LOL! I wasn't talking about In utero! I was talking about recessive genes...if you look at the cause effect of the genetics that cause a vestigial tail then ye it's an off the wall reference but the residual continual growth of it instead of the "reabsobtion" you'd see the similar correlation in example...both are the result of a recessive genes...well gene gene polymorphism-an abnormal structuralism of the genes (which is recessive)...you could stretch it to compare both to an anomaly. I'm sorry you didn't understand that.

You write "LOL" -- seriously???? I was so hoping this could be an intelligent discussion. I put some time into making an appropriate response to you. I do not think I am the one having a problem understanding. You may not be THINKING you are talking about "in utero" but that is where the tails are normally absorbed by autoimmune factors and that is where a difference occurs when it does not. There is no recessive gene that causes "residual continual growth of it." That is not even remotely correct. You may be talking about recessive genes but your examples make no sense and you have wrong information in your posts. You are not even using terms correctly. Some do not have anything to do with the subject at hand. No -- vestigial tails are not the result of recessive genes. It is an entirely DIFFERENT concept! Do you have a genetics book handy? Did you even read what I wrote to you. It might not be written in scientific-ese but it is correct.

You can't pick a couple of technical-sounding words and throw them into a post and make them fit a situation that they don't have any correlation with. For instance -- you write "both are the result of a recessive genes...well gene gene polymorphism-an abnormal structuralism of the genes (which is recessive)..." I am not sure at all what you mean by that but a vesitigial tail as I said is not the result of recessive genes and it is a very rare variation and rare variations ARE NOT polymorphisms. (Ref: "Rare variations are not classified as polymorphisms; and mutations by themselves do not constitute polymorphisms. " ) and "[B]an abnormal structuralism?" I don't know where you are going with that one either.....but I do understand structuralism as basically being the concept that biological laws dealing with change require a change in one part of an organism take into account the inter-connections of the organism as a whole. (In other words -- some characteristics are connected -- eye shine is a good example. Green eye shine, inter-connected with silky hair) So what you mean by that is pretty unclear too! What inter-connected traits are you getting at?

Now -- this is enough time spent trying to figure what sort of "baffling with BS" is going on. I am not stupid enough to fall for an argument that has no substance, contains some $2 words that do NOT have anything to do with the topic at hand or demeaning "lol" and "Sorry you didn't understand" comments. Enough is enough. If you have nothing of value to add to the thread, why mess it up for others? There are some excellent posts here -- on both sides of an interesting question. Trying to "fake it" just clogs the effective flow of information.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

Thanks for taking that one on. I just decided to ignore the tail part of her quote and reply to the "what makes them a carrier" part.

I think I am done trying to make sense of it. Wish I had ignored the whole "tail" subject too. You were smart enough to decide since it had NOTHING to do with our discussion to just skip it.

I am sorry when I quoted her post, it looked like I was quoting you. There are a couple of others in this thread that turned out like that too. I just had it happen again, but was able to go in and fix it before my 5 min. was up. Hard enough to keep track of who said what, without the quoted posts turning out wrong. Not sure what is causing it.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I will try to answer what I think your question may be...your wording is VERY confusing. My post said, "For Parti's it seems that "anything goes" as long as the dog has white on it. That does not seem like very selective. " I think that is simply stated but I will go into more detail. The Yorkshire Terrier standard requires VERY SPECIFIC guidelines as to the COLOR and placement of that COLOR on the dog. Breeders strive FIRST for health, then structure and the next priority would probably be COLOR. It takes such meticulous attention to detail looking for the right shades of dark steel blue and tan. You look for dogs that do not fade to silver, you look for dogs that do not stay pure black. You look for dogs whose tan, is rich but not red. You make sure the hairs are NOT entermingled. So many considerations and reasons to disqualify a dog from your breeding program if they are not showing as a prime example of the color and placement you want. Now enter the "parti" folks who just want to make sure white shows up somewhere on the dog. Who cares how much of which color? Who cares where the colors show up? Who cares if there are 2 or 3 colors? As I said, that does not seem very selective in ANY sense of the word. Breeding a purebred dog is not supposed to be an "anything goes" project -- it is supposed to be challenging and require meticulous attention & care. My opinion, but one shared by more than a few, I'm sure.

Your statement is too broad and is your opinion. Which is what you did not want here.
Some of us parti breeders strive for color placement just as much some traditional breeders. Not everyone strives for the color on the traditional yorkies as show breeders do. There are alot more yorkies born that do not have the proper color for show and those breeders don't care what color they breed or come out as long as they can sell them.
Stop lumping Parti breeders separately than any other dog breeder.
It is not just with some parti breeders placing any ol' dog with another ol' dog, Alot more traditional breeders are doing that.

All dogs start with the breeder and you cannot lump them all together just because of the color.

Some of us Parti breeders are just as selective, careful, meticulous, health conscious and reputable as are some traditional color yorkie breeders ,as are some Biewer breeders.
Some of us Parti breeders care very deeply and passionately about what we do.
We will continue to strive for the best, to show to the world how Magnificent, Beautiful and Healthy that the Parti Colored Yorkshire Terrier Is.

In my opinion, since you gave yours. It does seem that the YTCA cares more about the color of the yorkie than anything else, including health. If that were not true, then people wouldn't be doing so much enhancing(coloring) for the show, now would they and the dog would have to have stringent health tests before ever entering the ring to guard against passing on any health related genetic issues.
But they don't, they mostly just have to be the "right color" to be a Champion. IMO Health should always come first.......

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Your statement is too broad and is your opinion. Which is what you did not want here.
Some of us parti breeders strive for color placement just as much some traditional breeders. Not everyone strives for the color on the traditional yorkies as show breeders do. There are alot more yorkies born that do not have the proper color for show and those breeders don't care what color they breed or come out as long as they can sell them.
Stop lumping Parti breeders separately than any other dog breeder.
It is not just with some parti breeders placing any ol' dog with another ol' dog, Alot more traditional breeders are doing that.

All dogs start with the breeder and you cannot lump them all together just because of the color.

Some of us Parti breeders are just as selective, careful, meticulous, health conscious and reputable as are some traditional color yorkie breeders ,as are some Biewer breeders.
Some of us Parti breeders care very deeply and passionately about what we do.
We will continue to strive for the best, to show to the world how Magnificent, Beautiful and Healthy that the Parti Colored Yorkshire Terrier Is.

In my opinion, since you gave yours. It does seem that the YTCA cares more about the color of the yorkie than anything else, including health. If that were not true, then people wouldn't be doing so much enhancing(coloring) for the show, now would they and the dog would have to have stringent health tests before ever entering the ring to guard against passing on any health related genetic issues.
But they don't, they mostly just have to be the "right color" to be a Champion. IMO Health should always come first.......

The Breed Standard cares about "color". Prior to April of 1966 when the standard itself was last revised there was a scale of points included in the standard and that's how the dogs were judged. Out of 100 points coat color, texture, structure accounted for a full 50. It was a coat breed. The YTCA of today is also stressing health, temperament and structure. But judges will always recognize the correct steel blue coat. That IS the essence of the yorkshire terrier and is what sets it apart from other breeds. It's the trademark of this breed.

Are there any parti color yorkies listed on the Yorkshire Terrier CHIC page? Have any completed the two tests required for a CHIC number which are OFA Patellar Luxation and the CERF eye exam? Many claim to be breeding for health and now there is a way to start proving that the dogs that you're breeding from are sound. There are also optional tests that can be included on your dogs CHIC page. Talk of health is easy. Every one does it! CHIC offers us a way to start actually improving the health and soundness of this breed.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

The Breed Standard cares about "color". Prior to April of 1966 when the standard itself was last revised there was a scale of points included in the standard and that's how the dogs were judged. Out of 100 points coat color, texture, structure accounted for a full 50. It was a coat breed. The YTCA of today is also stressing health, temperament and structure. But judges will always recognize the correct steel blue coat. That IS the essence of the yorkshire terrier and is what sets it apart from other breeds. It's the trademark of this breed.

Are there any parti color yorkies listed on the Yorkshire Terrier CHIC page? Have any completed the two tests required for a CHIC number which are OFA Patellar Luxation and the CERF eye exam? Many claim to be breeding for health and now there is a way to start proving that the dogs that you're breeding from are sound. There are also optional tests that can be included on your dogs CHIC page. Talk of health is easy. Every one does it! CHIC offers us a way to start actually improving the health and soundness of this breed.

In addition; let it be known that it is now a YTCA requirement to obtain CHIC # for a dog to obtain selected top dog awards.

[Breezeaway]

There are 54 yorkies certified Chic. That's not very many is it?

[shodanusmc]

Can anyone ansert a simple question that many people want to know? Why are Parti;s bred, and why do they cost so much? Can they be shown in AKC Conformation? Why not just buy a Standard Yorkie, unless you want a designer dog?

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

There are 54 yorkies certified Chic. That's not very many is it?

Why not check the number of new names on the list each quarter. That is what is of significance. And the point remains that none are parti colored yorkies. It's up to all of us to start expecting reputable breeders to get CHIC numbers be it breeders of regular colored yorkies or parti colored.

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

Can anyone ansert a simple question that many people want to know? Why are Parti;s bred, and why do they cost so much? Can they be shown in AKC Conformation? Why not just buy a Standard Yorkie, unless you want a designer dog?

I will answer and my view point is from one who is not in favor of the parti color movement.
How they ever showed up in the breed is a question that can never be answered. But the fact is that they're here and people are breeding them because they want to be first, to try to develop something new. There are white german shepherds, parti color poodles, white boxers and schnauzers, etc. and all are put in the category of mismarks and are not desired in the breed. That's how most feel about parti colored yorkies. They cost so much because there truly is a "sucker born every minute". They cannot be shown in AKC conformation shows. The parti color yorkie and off color yorkie is a DQ in this breed.

[shodanusmc]

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

I will answer and my view point is from one who is not in favor of the parti color movement.
How they ever showed up in the breed is a question that can never be answered. But the fact is that they're here and people are breeding them because they want to be first, to try to develop something new. There are white german shepherds, parti color poodles, white boxers and schnauzers, etc. and all are put in the category of mismarks and are not desired in the breed. That's how most feel about parti colored yorkies. They cost so much because there truly is a "sucker born every minute". They cannot be shown in AKC conformation shows. The parti color yorkie and off color yorkie is a DQ in this breed.

Thank you. Same as the Cane Corso that i have. White, except for a small patch is a disqualification. Unless the standard is white, why breed for it? I agree about the sucker a minute. Why anyone would pay $6,000 for one that can't be shown is unbelievable, unless they show in ARBA.

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

Thank you. Same as the Cane Corso that i have. White, except for a small patch is a disqualification. Unless the standard is white, why breed for it? I agree about the sucker a minute. Why anyone would pay $6,000 for one that can't be shown is unbelievable, unless they show in ARBA.

I know that parti colors can be shown in some venues and I'm sure the parti exhibitors can share with us those shows. But they can't be shown in either UKC or AKC Conformation Shows.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

I will answer and my view point is from one who is not in favor of the parti color movement. How they ever showed up in the breed is a question that can never be answered.

It my humble opinion, the question of their origin has been answered many times. Genetics.

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

But the fact is that they're here and people are breeding them because they want to be first, to try to develop something new.

This is making a gigantic generalization. I don't think anyone can ASSUME, simply bc of their own feelings, how an individual feels or why they are doing ANYthing. I think it's presumptive to think one can see into other people's hearts, and make claims as to why they choose to breed, walk down the street, be kind, be mean - whatever.

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

There are white german shepherds, parti color poodles, white boxers and schnauzers, etc. and all are put in the category of mismarks and are not desired in the breed. That's how most feel about parti colored yorkies.

I'm not sure where you're getting the statistic of how the 'majority' feel.

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

They cost so much because there truly is a "sucker born every minute". They cannot be shown in AKC conformation shows. The parti color yorkie and off color yorkie is a DQ in this breed.

Okey dokey . Well, from this "sucker born every minute", I can assure you that I make my decisions very thoughtfully AND so did my breeder.

My GORGEOUS parti girl, Pfeiffer, wishes you only the best - she has room in her heart for everyone, even those who disapprove of her .

[shodanusmc]

Ann, no one disapproves of your dog. That is not the point. This debate will go on ad nauseum. There is a AKC standard. Standard. I am sure your little girl is terrific and that is all that counts, unless you plan on showing her in Conformation classes. Behave now, or I will have to close this thread and put myself into ban mode again.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

It my humble opinion, the question of their origin has been answered many times. Genetics.



This is making a gigantic generalization. I don't think anyone can ASSUME, simply bc of their own feelings, how an individual feels or why they are doing ANYthing. I think it's presumptive to think one can see into other people's hearts, and make claims as to why they choose to breed, walk down the street, be kind, be mean - whatever.



I'm not sure where you're getting the statistic of how the 'majority' feel.



Okey dokey . Well, from this "sucker born every minute", I can assure you that I make my decisions very thoughtfully AND so did my breeder.

My GORGEOUS parti girl, Pfeiffer, wishes you only the best - she has room in her heart for everyone, even those who disapprove of her .

Ann, please don't suggest that people disapprove of Pfeiffer just because we don't support the breeding of Parti's. This isn't about individual dogs, this is about the breed as a whole and what is good for it. I think Pfeiffer is adorable, and I also think droopy eared dogs Yorkies are adorable, but I would not support a breeder who bred for them. The breed club for the Yorkshire Terrier believes that breeding for Partis is wrong, the breed club is the experts, and whether people like this or not, we can speak of them as the "majority". These breeders, in general, know how to breed and have created champions. There is an old saying that you have to know the rules before you break the rules, same goes with dog breeding, how many parti breeders have created champions before they got into breeding parti's, do they even know the other points on how to create a good structured dog? This is why many people question a parti breeders motives, but people cannot take this personally, and statements such as the one you just made suggesting that somehow we don't like Pfeiffer is really hitting below the belt. This really hurts me to read this, and I'm sure it hurts others as well.