Feeling A Little Guilty.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Remember at times a brownish cast to a coat can mean an harmonal imbalance. I've had it with a couple of my bitches and once in full coat the cast had grown out and they were a dark steel bue and silk.....sadly to say with each Season and litter they lightened.

I did not know that. Adding it to things to remember.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

Actually, I beg to differ. The term "hybrid dog" has nothing to do with a 50/50 mixture and everything to do with marketing by less than reputable breeders. In the past, the term mixed breed was used to describe these litters, as they were almost always a "whoops" and not planned for profit.

I would suggest that you take a look at the history of how the yorkie breed came in to being. It wasn't done willy nilly to fuel a marketing craze. The breed came in to being after the careful selection of the "parent" breeds for specific traits. And then, only the best examples of the breeds were used to create the Yorkie. Careful records were kept by selected breeders and the crosses were bred to crosses to create the Yorkie as we know it today.

That's a far cry from what's being done with this "hybrid" craze. Anyone with an off-standard yorkie will breed it to another off-standard dog to make it the latest trend. There is no "end goal" in sight, other than the almighty buck.

I do love Yorkies. Badly bred ones included. In fact, I have two badly bred ones that came from rescues. But the badly bred ones have helped create the many problems we see in the population today. The breed standard is set for a reason, and it's to maintain the integrity of the lines.

As for Biewers (which I think are gorgeous), there is a lot of controversy depending on who you talk to about their origin. There is a reason the AKC doesn't recognize them here, yet. I have no idea if they ever will. Same goes for Parti's. Chesapeake retrievers were recognized by the AKC in 1878. They trace their origins to Newfoundlands that were then bred to a multiple variety of dogs to attain the breed known today. No one tossed two dogs in to a room and, low and behold, a new breed was born.

First, Thanks for opening up your post OP!... hopefully there will be a constructive conversation on this topic since it is so often debated.
Rhetts_mama:

1.You don't need to beg I'm always open to someone's opinion, as long as you aren't rude. You are differing with what, the meaning of a term? Yes I do read-I also use a dictionary-look up the term hybrid as it applies to animals...hmm I have read extensively on the history of Yorkies...on multiple sides of the arguments over their beginnings and accepted history, controversial, from both YTCA, AKC, EKC etc. But I'm no expert (genetics are an interest of mine so are Yorkies, thus I've read specifically on the origins) I continue reading, and learning if you have some reference you'd like to share I actually do spend the time looking at what people post...FYI look up Chessie history again, three breeds mixed due to an accident-and Yorkie history is debated because historically records weren't kept in even close to the detailed manner they are today, records exist they are good, but not as detailed as needed thus there's great debates on the origins.

2. My exact point was on breeding standards, not just freaking out saying an animal is badly bred because it is a mix of any form (a mix being a hybrid if 50/50 or generational the crossing of only two, or mix being a "mut" "designer dogs" which are of the general term a mix-exactly what I said before). Badly bred Yorkies-who doesn't love one for being an dog anyways right? Its a shame they were badly bred though-wish there was more accountability to breeding methods (i.e. required genetic testing, paternity maternity verification prior to registration, OFA {chic} certifications required, let alone the proper methods of breeding age appropriate dogs and proper care prior, during , after breeding with adequate times between litters etc).

3. I will add my personal opinion here on this I think poorly bred purebred is far more detrimental to any breed than any hybrid or mix could ever be. Again that's my opinion, I know many would say mixes are often snuck in and that's horrible but poor breeding vs mixing in controlled responsible breeding lines-well I'm sure everyone can see my position weather you agree with it or not.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

Sorry -- I mispoke-- your ltr does say the parents were both Wildweir. I was surprised she did not admit in a published book having the one tri-color in all of her very prolific years of breeding. I have "The Complete Yorkshire Terrier" she wrote and will get it out again. But I think we keep arguing different points. You said the Yorkshire Terrier originally had Maltese in it and that is what I try to speak to but you keep bring it back to Joan Gordan having one tri-color. I will concede that since you have the letter from her. I trust that. But it just does not lead me to believe the other things we are in contention over.

I will admit you threw me a surprise there as I had not remembered that if I had know it before. I definately don't have it all down, but I know I read plenty trying to find any justification for white in the breed and could not find it. Supposition is just not enough to convince me.

Actually no one knows 100% what dogs went into the Yorkie. Does it matter to me , No. I just want people to stop saying they are not purebreds and that yorkies were never born as tri colors when it has been proven that they were born in various colors. If the tri wasnt a yorkie then why would Joan and Jan register Trippy with AKC as they did? Why did they not just pet him out? .
It was also published that Hemingway's grandfather had a white yorkie named Tassel. I highly doubt this was a misprint or a lie since he was a distinguished writer.
I love the parti color yorkie but I also love my traditional color yorkies too. I do agree there are alot of yorkie breeders whether it be parti or traditional that are out for the almighty dollar and that some of the partis are crossed with something else ,so are the traditional colors and so are the biewers. That is why all of my dogs are DNA'd, health tested and are only placed with a select few. I urge all people before buying any of these to do the same, make sure all dogs in the pedigree are dna'd, health tested and that you research the breeder thoroughly.

[concretegurl]

Breezeaway,
1. What do you mean DNA'd-I don't want to start another debate on the reliability of Canine DNA tests, I think you are making an excellent choice in utilizing DNA testing, the more it is used the sooner we will see advancements! I'm curious the company you use and the type of test you do?

2. Health test- you do genetic testing per the line and the individual dog?

3. Also I read something about Biewers having a general decline as they were being inbred so much. I was wondering what is the solution to out crossing...breeding Biewer to distant Biewer isn't enough at this point it has to be back to standard Yorkie (Parti) or something?

***Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post personal things on here I can see how maybe some of my questions may be rather personal, and I understand how many breeders don't like to disclose some things. I'm not a breeder, I'm just genuinely curious of the methodology and the genetic research.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Breezeaway,
1. What do you mean DNA-I don't want to start another debate on the reliability of Canine DNA tests, but I'm curious the company you use and the type of test you do.

2. Health test- you do genetic testing per the line and the individual dog?

3. Also I read something about Biewers having a general decline as they were being inbred so much. I was wondering what is the solution to out crossing...breeding Biewer to distant Biewer isn't enough at this point it has to be back to standard Yorkie (Parti) or something?

***Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post personal things on here I can see how maybe some of my questions may be rather personal, and I understand how many breeders don't like to disclose some things. I'm not a breeder, I'm just genuinely curious of the methodology and the genetic research.

I mean AKC Parentage DNA on each dog.
Health testing on each dog that I have. Bile acid tests, blood work , Hips, Patellas etc etc
The Biewer Clubs Here in the U.S. must be very careful about all the linebreeding they are doing within the Biewer, as the gene pool was too small to begin with to start such a venture.

In the years to come they will see the effects of all the Line Breeding that is being done within the Biewer. Liver shunt and seizures are starting to really show up in more dogs and puppies here lately. Almost every Breeder or owner I have spoken with has had atleast one Biewer that has seizures. Because of the health issues in the Biewers, many are either quitting breeding, selling out and getting Parti Yorkies or they are breeding the Parti Yorkies into their lines to get away from all the inbreeding.

Germany does not practice the breeding of only Biewer to Biewer, they allow the traditional color yorkies to be bred into the lines. Germany admits that they do not have enough unrelated and healthy biewer lines. If Germany feels they don't have enough lines to breed only biewer to biewer, why do the the american breeders feel they have enough unrelated and healthy lines? You have the same lines as the german breeders.

In Germany the health issues in the Biewers popped up. That came from the inbreeding, from breeding biewer to biewer with not enough unrelated and healthy biewer lines. More and more breeders in Germany no longer breed the biewer, because of the health issues. And other german breeders feel it is time to breed their biewers back to the yorkshire terrier (and they do). They feel the Biewer is a Yorkshire Terrier, only the color makes the difference.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

. . .
It was also published that Hemingway's grandfather had a white yorkie named Tassel. I highly doubt this was a misprint or a lie since he was a distinguished writer. . . .

Where was it published Ernest Hemmingway's grandfather had a white yorkie? Ernest Hemmingway was born in 1899, I'm assuming his grandfather had to be pretty old by the 1940's. People misname dogs all the time; this could have just as easily been a West Highland Terrier, a Maltese or a mix breed. I'm always reading this antidote as proof that the parti has been around for years. Are there any types of AKC records for this? Just because he was a famous writer, it doesn't mean everything that was written about him and his family is true.

[Breezeaway]

You can do a google search on Hemingways grandfathers dog, tassel.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Where was it published Ernest Hemmingway's grandfather had a white yorkie? Ernest Hemmingway was born in 1899, I'm assuming his grandfather had to be pretty old by the 1940's. People misname dogs all the time; this could have just as easily been a West Highland Terrier, a Maltese or a mix breed. I'm always reading this antidote as proof that the parti has been around for years. Are there any types of AKC records for this? Just because he was a famous writer, it doesn't mean everything that was written about him and his family is true.

NM not pertinent

[Breezeaway]

Hemingway: a life without consequences - Google Books

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Where was it published Ernest Hemmingway's grandfather had a white yorkie? Ernest Hemmingway was born in 1899, I'm assuming his grandfather had to be pretty old by the 1940's. People misname dogs all the time; this could have just as easily been a West Highland Terrier, a Maltese or a mix breed. I'm always reading this antidote as proof that the parti has been around for years. Are there any types of AKC records for this? Just because he was a famous writer, it doesn't mean everything that was written about him and his family is true.

This is the stuff I am talking about with people and the parti's. No one wants to believe what is written and always just casts it off as fiction. I don't think if it was fiction it would be written in several different books and by several different people, back then they didn't care. Is there any AKC proof that there were not a tri's or whites years and years ago? As you say, so in the yorkies makeup, people misname dogs all the time and so the true heritage of the yorkie can NOT be proven one way or the other.

[Breezeaway]

Posted 2 times.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

This is the stuff I am talking about with people and the parti's. No one wants to believe what is written and always just casts it off as fiction. I don't think if it was fiction it would be written in several different books and by several different people, back then they didn't care. Is there any AKC proof that there were not a tri's or whites years and years ago? As you say, so in the yorkies makeup, people misname dogs all the time and so the true heritage of the yorkie can NOT be proven one way or the other.

I read it little of the except, it sounds like he's reminiscing about his childhood, I'm sorry, but this just not seem to be proof, lots of people on YT think that their dogs are yorkies, and well, unless they have proof, I'm not so sure I believe them. Even AKC papers are only as good as the breeder.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Actually no one knows 100% what dogs went into the Yorkie. Does it matter to me , No. I just want people to stop saying they are not purebreds and that yorkies were never born as tri colors when it has been proven that they were born in various colors. If the tri wasnt a yorkie then why would Joan and Jan register Trippy with AKC as they did? Why did they not just pet him out? .
It was also published that Hemingway's grandfather had a white yorkie named Tassel. I highly doubt this was a misprint or a lie since he was a distinguished writer.
I love the parti color yorkie but I also love my traditional color yorkies too. I do agree there are alot of yorkie breeders whether it be parti or traditional that are out for the almighty dollar and that some of the partis are crossed with something else ,so are the traditional colors and so are the biewers. That is why all of my dogs are DNA'd, health tested and are only placed with a select few. I urge all people before buying any of these to do the same, make sure all dogs in the pedigree are dna'd, health tested and that you research the breeder thoroughly.

According to the letter you provided the parents were spayed & neutered and Trippy was "placed with friends" -- sort of sounds like petting out to me. I don't know about you but I still register my pets, even if I plan to spsy & neuter.

I saw in another post you made, you alluded to this Wildweir line contributing to the partis here and perhaps being from the same Streamglen line as the Biewers and Nikkos Orange Blosson (Parti). Wouldn't that be unlikely since Joan said in all the years she and her sister bred yorkies they only ever came across this ONE tri-color and it wsa on a first breeding where dam & sire were subsequently neutered? What about Trippy? Was he neutered too? Seems she would have done that since she was so conscientious about spaying & neutering the parents.

As far as some article about Hemingway having a white yorkie -- Really??? reference? Stretching pretty far. Maybe it was a rare albino yorkie? Maybe it was a Maltese and the writer was not familiar with the breed. Maybe and more than likely it was a mix! (Lots of people will call a mix by what they see as the predominant breed.) Maybe it was a persian cat??? Who knows? Really crazy to think you could toss that one out as a reference. I know I said I was dog tired, but come on. (S'okay, I have been known to stretch a point to try to fit too. I won't fault you for trying).

I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on this. I do have a few references from folks with more experience and clout in the breeding world than any of us..... maybe those would be of interest. I think I will make a new thread though. This one is getting sort of convoluted.

[shodanusmc]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

Wow -- don't think I have ever had my name thrown around in one post as many times as this one!!!! I was going to skip but how can I not respond if only to reiterate what I have said before.

I have read just as many scientific explanations that show there is NO "parti" gene in the actual Yorkshire Terrier's past. Where is the white-coated breed in the ACTUAL breed background that would somehow materialize over 100 years later????? No one comes up with a believable origin -- just that there is some gene! I don't buy it. I had to read carefully on both sides and come to my own conclusion. But I do not believe for a minute that there was a white gene in there. Others do and they have just as much right to their opinion as I do. However, the proof is on the side of the parti's. And I have not read anything that convinces me after careful dissection.

The Yorkshire Terrier is a beautiful breed. Many, many years by so many yorkie enthusiasts have gone into improving this magnificent breed. It would be such a shame in my mind, to try to dilute it, suggest these modern day parti's are all natural Yorkie anomalies and now breed FOR the fault.

To use poor purebred breeders as some excuse for me not to have a stance against "partis" is ridiculous. That is like saying there is only one bad breeding practice and you can't say anything against all others???? Does that make any sense at all? No! I am against purebred breeders who use poor breeding practices, those breeding tinies, those breeding off standard (which includes COLOR by the way), those not selecting the best examples of the breed, those not humanely breeding, those who sell to pet shops, brokers, the list goes on......but I am still against "parti's" as they are a FAULT, a DISQUALIFICATION according to the only two governing breed organizations -- AKC and YTCA.

The "parti" people go out and start their own breed club, try to come up with their own rules, standards, etc..... but then they want to be yorkies too!!! Can't have it both wys. You want to be a yorkie then you go by the rules of the YTCA and AKC (or other country's equivalent -- I don't mean to make this like the US is the end-all but I am not familiar enough with other countries' breed clubs). Now they want to SHOW their dogs at AKC shows when the AKC has said that the color white is going to be an immediate disqualification.

It is sort of like this site -- if you don't like the rules, then you are free to go elsewhere! Don't try to change the WHOLE Yorkshire Terrier world, just because you want to breed off-color dogs. (Speaking of a metaphorical "you" -- not the author of the quoted material).

Totally agree.

[Breezeaway]

Honestly it does not matter to me what you believe. Some people believe the Chevy is better, some believe the Ford is better. Each and every person has a right to what they believe and what they want. If you don't like the parti's thats fine, no problem. But alot of other people do, and with that the Parti is here to stay no matter what you or anyone on here says. They are AKC registered and acknowledged by AKC.
No, they cant show yet, but if anyone thinks that is going to hinder us, think again. Do we think our parti's have to be in a beauty pageant to say they are Beautiful and worthy of breeding? Nope we don't.
The true honest parti breeders know they have great dogs and don't need a judge to tell them that their dogs are worthy of breeding. If you have to take your dog into a ring and let a stranger tell you if you have nice dog or not, worthy of breeding and you cant tell by looking at it, then you got problems.

I never said Wildweir contributed to the partis, just said they had one pop up in their lines. Which to me proves that partis were born to traditional yorkies long before anyone cared to cause a scene over it because they were mostly put down when that was the thing to do before animal rights became such an issue.