Feeling A Little Guilty.

[Breezeaway]

Oh and BTW its not a breed club, its a color club. The parti is not a separate breed, It is a Yorkshire Terrier, from its little head to its little tail, It is a YORKSHIRE TERRIER because AKC says so.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Honestly it does not matter to me what you believe. Some people believe the Chevy is better, some believe the Ford is better. Each and every person has a right to what they believe and what they want. If you don't like the parti's thats fine, no problem. But alot of other people do, and with that the Parti is here to stay no matter what you or anyone on here says. They are AKC registered and acknowledged by AKC.
No, they cant show yet, but if anyone thinks that is going to hinder us, think again. Do we think our parti's have to be in a beauty pageant to say they are Beautiful and worthy of breeding? Nope we don't.
The true honest parti breeders know they have great dogs and don't need a judge to tell them that their dogs are worthy of breeding. If you have to take your dog into a ring and let a stranger tell you if you have nice dog or not, worthy of breeding and you cant tell by looking at it, then you got problems.

I never said Wildweir contributed to the partis, just said they had one pop up in their lines. Which to me proves that partis were born to traditional yorkies long before anyone cared to cause a scene over it because they were mostly put down when that was the thing to do before animal rights became such an issue.

1. I see what you mean about DNA'd good for you having proven parentage is the first of many steps in legitimacy. Have you considered or ever heard about the DNA banking for research purposes where there is banking to identify and track markers?

2. I think that's going to be the problem in convincing people of anything they refuse to listen to-unless you get them popping up (recessive genes are by nature extremely rare in dominance of traits) in well know "pure" lines and being documented people are not going to believe it regardless. Personally because of my (limited) understanding of genetics across species I believe in the authenticity of Partis-they are however a "fault" in coloration for what the desired result was and the manipulation of breeding out and then the manipulation of breeding back in has really cause serious question as to the abundance of them now...let alone the manipulation of color mutations and breeding for those qualities, along with then crossing for "identical" results I think that's why many people further doubt-its unfortunate.

3. Furthermore I had always heard (I actually have a Parti with epilepsy and arthritis, as well being oversized-he came from a breeder whom chose to only breed Parti to Parti and maybe crossed in some Parti carriers really trying to bring out the Parti gene to the point of unhealthy repressiveness) that it is with the excess of pronounced recessive genes you find genetic abnormalities-when you were talking about Biewers being bred back to Partis' it seems that would be genetically irresponsible considering the basics of genetics...and maybe they should be bred back to standard Yorkies of healthy proven lines. Correct me if I'm wrong here I'm a novice on the subject.

4. I had never heard of Biewers being openly considered Yorkie in Germany I thought they were considered a sub-category or alternative breed and that Yorkies were only being crossed back into the lines and bred out like 4 generations is it before it can be called a Biewer again? Maybe I'm not saying that right I can't find where I read it and whom told me about it-hoping maybe you were aware of that considering your "field" and you could lend explanation.

5. Thank you for responding to my questions, I appreciative you taking the time to do so! Sorry I just came back with more!

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

This is the stuff I am talking about with people and the parti's. No one wants to believe what is written and always just casts it off as fiction. I don't think if it was fiction it would be written in several different books and by several different people, back then they didn't care. Is there any AKC proof that there were not a tri's or whites years and years ago? As you say, so in the yorkies makeup, people misname dogs all the time and so the true heritage of the yorkie can NOT be proven one way or the other.

As a student of history, I have to say this is insufficient proof of a fact. Several different authors could be repeating incorrect info from one source. Unless these are all primary sources, people who had first hand, personal knowledge of the white Yorkie, then it is questionable.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Maximo

As a student of history, I have to say this is insufficient proof of a fact. Several different authors could be repeating incorrect info from one source. Unless these are all primary sources, people who had first hand, personal knowledge of the white Yorkie, then it is questionable.

Not that I'm disagreeing with your point, it is a good point, (although I believe otherwise personally-I still like your take on getting facts) but she did use first hand accounts as references, along with multiple accountancy-not multiple sources quoting one specific sited piece. She did fail to site her reference to the records of "white pups" though. (I'll site them all in APA format when I'm done getting them together). I have found several for tri-colored pups noted, some noting white coloration or markings, but I want to see the original records somewhere validated before I post it as factual support, I'm just finding the references to them atm..I'm actually looking at all of the referenced accounts she posted now, really hard to sort through all the nonsense references to it all on the net though...LOL not that many here care, personally I find it all very interesting.

[RachelandSadie]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

According to the letter you provided the parents were spayed & neutered and Trippy was "placed with friends" -- sort of sounds like petting out to me. I don't know about you but I still register my pets, even if I plan to spsy & neuter.

I saw in another post you made, you alluded to this Wildweir line contributing to the partis here and perhaps being from the same Streamglen line as the Biewers and Nikkos Orange Blosson (Parti). Wouldn't that be unlikely since Joan said in all the years she and her sister bred yorkies they only ever came across this ONE tri-color and it wsa on a first breeding where dam & sire were subsequently neutered? What about Trippy? Was he neutered too? Seems she would have done that since she was so conscientious about spaying & neutering the parents.

As far as some article about Hemingway having a white yorkie -- Really??? reference? Stretching pretty far. Maybe it was a rare albino yorkie? Maybe it was a Maltese and the writer was not familiar with the breed. Maybe and more than likely it was a mix! (Lots of people will call a mix by what they see as the predominant breed.) Maybe it was a persian cat??? Who knows? Really crazy to think you could toss that one out as a reference. I know I said I was dog tired, but come on. (S'okay, I have been known to stretch a point to try to fit too. I won't fault you for trying).

I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on this. I do have a few references from folks with more experience and clout in the breeding world than any of us..... maybe those would be of interest. I think I will make a new thread though. This one is getting sort of convoluted.

Hey Deb. did you know that Toto from The Wizard of Oz in the book was actually supposed to be a yorkie??? didya didya huhh huhh???? wonder who changed it to a cairn terrier in the movie? hmmmmmm we may never know.

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

First, Thanks for opening up your post OP!... hopefully there will be a constructive conversation on this topic since it is so often debated.
Rhetts_mama:

1.You don't need to beg I'm always open to someone's opinion, as long as you aren't rude. You are differing with what, the meaning of a term? Yes I do read-I also use a dictionary-look up the term hybrid as it applies to animals...hmm I have read extensively on the history of Yorkies...on multiple sides of the arguments over their beginnings and accepted history, controversial, from both YTCA, AKC, EKC etc. But I'm no expert (genetics are an interest of mine so are Yorkies, thus I've read specifically on the origins) I continue reading, and learning if you have some reference you'd like to share I actually do spend the time looking at what people post...FYI look up Chessie history again, three breeds mixed due to an accident-and Yorkie history is debated because historically records weren't kept in even close to the detailed manner they are today, records exist they are good, but not as detailed as needed thus there's great debates on the origins.

2. My exact point was on breeding standards, not just freaking out saying an animal is badly bred because it is a mix of any form (a mix being a hybrid if 50/50 or generational the crossing of only two, or mix being a "mut" "designer dogs" which are of the general term a mix-exactly what I said before). Badly bred Yorkies-who doesn't love one for being an dog anyways right? Its a shame they were badly bred though-wish there was more accountability to breeding methods (i.e. required genetic testing, paternity maternity verification prior to registration, OFA {chic} certifications required, let alone the proper methods of breeding age appropriate dogs and proper care prior, during , after breeding with adequate times between litters etc).

3. I will add my personal opinion here on this I think poorly bred purebred is far more detrimental to any breed than any hybrid or mix could ever be. Again that's my opinion, I know many would say mixes are often snuck in and that's horrible but poor breeding vs mixing in controlled responsible breeding lines-well I'm sure everyone can see my position weather you agree with it or not.

What I am differing with is the contention that mixing breeds should be considered anything OTHER than bad breeding the way it is done now. What's the end goal in mind? Are breeds being mixed to create a healthier dog? Are they being mixed to create a dog that does a specific task? Nope. Though we often hear antectodal "evidence" that mixed breeds are healthier, the fact is there is no scientific proof of it and neither is it the intention of the breeders. Rather, the motivation is greed, IMO.

It wasn't that long ago (I'm talking no more than 5-10 years) that anyone with an "oops" mixed litter was standing in front of Wally World holding a "free to good home" sign. Then along came the story of the Labradoodle and faster than you can say "bad idea" comes a proliferation of these so called "designer dogs" or "hybrids". These litters weren't created to fulfill a need as the Labradoodle was, but rather to fill the greeders pockets. There was a link here to an article with the creator of the Labradoodle expressing his regret for ever creating it because of the fall out. I'll have to see if I can find it.

So, in short, I do consider mixed breeders to be in the same category of the worst of the worst BYB's. People who are doing nothing to improve or even maintain a breed, but rather making money off the backs of animals just to fullfill a fad.

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Not that I'm disagreeing with your point, it is a good point, (although I believe otherwise personally-I still like your take on getting facts) but she did use first hand accounts as references, along with multiple accountancy-not multiple sources quoting one specific sited piece. She did fail to site her reference to the records of "white pups" though. (I'll site them all in APA format when I'm done getting them together). I have found several for tri-colored pups noted, some noting white coloration or markings, but I want to see the original records somewhere validated before I post it as factual support, I'm just finding the references to them atm..I'm actually looking at all of the referenced accounts she posted now, really hard to sort through all the nonsense references to it all on the net though...LOL not that many here care, personally I find it all very interesting.

My "take on getting facts" is a well-established method favored by historians, journalists, scientists, and more.

I was addressing the case of Ernest Hemingway's dog, and not white pups in general. There may very well be several books/sources that reference Hemingway having a "white Yorkie," and while these books/sources may not attribute this information to another source, the authors probably do not have first hand knowledge of the dog. Misinformation has a way of getting repeated often. Heminway may have had such a dog, but I would want better proof.

I can show you multiple reputable sources from 1914, including the New York Times, that claimed Germans were murdering Belgian babies. Doesn't make it true. Dead Belgian babies were a myth.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Honestly it does not matter to me what you believe. Some people believe the Chevy is better, some believe the Ford is better. Each and every person has a right to what they believe and what they want. If you don't like the parti's thats fine, no problem. But alot of other people do, and with that the Parti is here to stay no matter what you or anyone on here says. They are AKC registered and acknowledged by AKC.
No, they cant show yet, but if anyone thinks that is going to hinder us, think again. Do we think our parti's have to be in a beauty pageant to say they are Beautiful and worthy of breeding? Nope we don't.
The true honest parti breeders know they have great dogs and don't need a judge to tell them that their dogs are worthy of breeding. If you have to take your dog into a ring and let a stranger tell you if you have nice dog or not, worthy of breeding and you cant tell by looking at it, then you got problems.

I never said Wildweir contributed to the partis, just said they had one pop up in their lines. Which to me proves that partis were born to traditional yorkies long before anyone cared to cause a scene over it because they were mostly put down when that was the thing to do before animal rights became such an issue.

Parti's will be around after YT and all of use are long gone.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

I mean AKC Parentage DNA on each dog.
Health testing on each dog that I have. Bile acid tests, blood work , Hips, Patellas etc etc
The Biewer Clubs Here in the U.S. must be very careful about all the linebreeding they are doing within the Biewer, as the gene pool was too small to begin with to start such a venture.

In the years to come they will see the effects of all the Line Breeding that is being done within the Biewer. Liver shunt and seizures are starting to really show up in more dogs and puppies here lately. Almost every Breeder or owner I have spoken with has had atleast one Biewer that has seizures. Because of the health issues in the Biewers, many are either quitting breeding, selling out and getting Parti Yorkies or they are breeding the Parti Yorkies into their lines to get away from all the inbreeding.

Germany does not practice the breeding of only Biewer to Biewer, they allow the traditional color yorkies to be bred into the lines. Germany admits that they do not have enough unrelated and healthy biewer lines. If Germany feels they don't have enough lines to breed only biewer to biewer, why do the the american breeders feel they have enough unrelated and healthy lines? You have the same lines as the german breeders.

In Germany the health issues in the Biewers popped up. That came from the inbreeding, from breeding biewer to biewer with not enough unrelated and healthy biewer lines. More and more breeders in Germany no longer breed the biewer, because of the health issues. And other german breeders feel it is time to breed their biewers back to the yorkshire terrier (and they do). They feel the Biewer is a Yorkshire Terrier, only the color makes the difference.

Germany also does not believe in health testing their puppies....the very reason German breeders bailed when it became a requirement within the BBCA.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Germany also does not believe in health testing their puppies....the very reason German breeders bailed when it became a requirement within the BBCA.

Do you have something showing what they bailed on? I'm lost with your statement and confused as to why Germany would be part of an American club-I'm naive to all this so it's like someone is talking in code sometimes. I did find this link showing Germany (well German breed club representatives) participating in A BBCA event in March of this year but I'm not sure what you are referring would you mind explaining for the laymen? http://bbca.fatcow.com/sitebuilderco...wsletter_2.pdf
As far as the other comments well you can't win everyone over and I'm not sure that's the point my point in all this was breeding standards and not saying just because something is a mix is bad breeding-but again some people no matter which example and justifications you show them will only see what they want to and continue to generalize so oh well that's their prerogative-, and hum anyone know how to use the ignore people function I'm not into reading shot horror gore posts just because someone fails to be adequate in their representations...

[concretegurl]

Glad this thread got bumped...

Originally Posted by Maximo

My "take on getting facts" is a well-established method favored by historians, journalists, scientists, and more.

I was addressing the case of Ernest Hemingway's dog, and not white pups in general. There may very well be several books/sources that reference Hemingway having a "white Yorkie," and while these books/sources may not attribute this information to another source, the authors probably do not have first hand knowledge of the dog. Misinformation has a way of getting repeated often. Heminway may have had such a dog, but I would want better proof.

I can show you multiple reputable sources from 1914, including the New York Times, that claimed Germans were murdering Belgian babies. Doesn't make it true. Dead Belgian babies were a myth.

Ernest Hemingway's grandfather had a white yorkie named Tassel-it was his first hand account that was referred to...we all know about Goldens...many people on YT have Yorkies that have turned white spontaneously...I'm not even going to touch on the other "myth"...a very weird statement to make.

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Germany also does not believe in health testing their puppies....the very reason German breeders bailed when it became a requirement within the BBCA.

Where do you get that-I'm still not seeing it from what I'm researching...am I looking in the wrong places?