Lost our 2 pups.... - Page 5 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

peanut · 10-10-2010, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roncassie

Less than 10 minutes. She was already on our bed and was yipping like she always does when she wants down. She went direclty to the door so I could let her out. I let her out and she was yipping in the garage to be let in like she always does when she is ready to come in.

Hair Dryer...because it was a suggestion I read to help dry them off. On a low warm setting.

If you are trying to find a flaw in my preparation, then I am sure you will. I can find so many different examples of what one should have to prepare for. So to say oneway or another is right or wrong is not going to help.

No I was just trying to figure it out, why you wouldn't have noticed the blood or all the wetness coming from her.
I have never know of any bitch leaving a pup like that, and was trying to figure it out, how she cut the cord, and the got the placenta out, and ran in like nothing ever happened.

Woogie Man · 10-10-2010, 09:03 AM

Ron, there are a couple of things you need to watch out for at this time. You need to watch out for mastitis, since Gracie has no pups to nurse. Her teats could become engorged and an infection set in. Also, a discharge from her vulva is normal for some time (up to a couple of weeks) after giving birth but you should check to make sure it's not smelly. That would be a sign of an infection.

The best thing to do at this time is to take her in to your vet and have her checked. He/she could give you further advice on what to watch out for and check her present state of health.

roncassie · 10-10-2010, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Ron, there are a couple of things you need to watch out for at this time. You need to watch out for mastitis, since Gracie has no pups to nurse. Her teats could become engorged and an infection set in. Also, a discharge from her vulva is normal for some time (up to a couple of weeks) after giving birth but you should check to make sure it's not smelly. That would be a sign of an infection.

The best thing to do at this time is to take her in to your vet and have her checked. He/she could give you further advice on what to watch out for and check her present state of health.

We had her at vet on Friday with the 1 pup. We will call them back tomorrow to seek advice since the pup died and to ensure her care is where it needsto be.

Thanks for your help.

megansmomma · 10-10-2010, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaxtersMommy

I wasn't suggesting to post in Breeder Talk so he could learn how to be a breeder. I was suggesting that he go there and educate himself. There is so much good there and he will read first hand what he did wrong and hopefully not allow it to happen again. Hopefully what he reads there will just confirm what you have all said here & what we all know needs to happen.....SPAY that little girl.

Then I obviously misunderstood what you were trying to convey to him with your first post. It seems to be very evident that many responsible breeder have now come on to state what it mean to be responsible and back up what has so many people inflamed this morning.

poppys mummy · 10-10-2010, 09:15 AM

just reading this for the 1st time , sorry for all the hurt you have gone through

sending good wishes your way

love jill n poppy xx

Wylie's Mom · 10-10-2010, 09:23 AM

It is fine to express opinions regarding this thread, because that is allowed on all threads. However, please try to show some compassion. There is nothing wrong with telling someone how you feel, while couching it in a bit of compassion...and a bit of understanding, regardless of the situation.

I think Jim said it best in that, this is a very tragic but preventable loss. It is very sad, on so many levels.

Ron, it is too late now - but I sure wish you had had a mentor to help you with this whelping. Whelpings are life and death situations, and in this case, it resulted in deaths. Please understand that it's difficult for many of us to fathom how one could allow a whelping/breeding to occur without first having exhaustive education regarding breeding. We see tragedies here at YT similar to this, so people are (understandably) very emotional when they see losses such as this. Also Ron, it doesn't help that your replies are pouring fuel on the fire, intentionally. It is up to you too, as a member, to show some understanding in terms of what others may be feeling. It goes both ways.

Please get your precious girl spayed, and take this experience to heart. I wish your girl the best of luck as she heals from this.

roncassie · 10-10-2010, 09:23 AM

OK....This is ENOUGH!

I know Ron has been arguing with most of you. WE know that we did wrong by her (Gracie). We didn't come here to be called names and labeled as abusive dog owners. I would like to make a few point CLEAR!

1) Gracie has NEVER spent a night in the garage in a wire cage! She has never spent a night in the garage PERIOD! (If you feel the need to know...98% of the time she sleep in bed curled up to RON)

2) For those of you upset at Ron for putting her in her kennel with some poo on her...I understand. I can honestly say I wasn't really happy about that when he told me about it either. But.....it is what it is. If I had been awake...then YES, she would have been cleaned off...which means I HOPEFULLY would have noticed that she was a little more than "wet" on hind end. But there is also no guarantee that I would have thought too much about it. We didn't realize she would be delivering so early. (I say "early" because of when we THOUGHT she should deliver...she actually delivered right on time)

3) We are not now or ever have been a "animal abuser"! She is LOVED and VERY SPOILED...just like Crystal (our Yorkie we had for 14 yrs) was!

4) We did not plan on breeding her in her last heat cycle. Do to circumstances with myself and our kids being out of town and my husband at work our neighbors were helping to take care of our dogs. They did not know that she was in heat. We did not know that she was in heat until it was too late. So after the deed was done we started educating ourselves. Our PLAN was to do the education before we decided IF we would breed her or not. I'm sure that someone will take issue with the fact that we left our neighbors to care for our dogs....well, I'm sorry....I thought being taken care of by people that they KNEW and that loved them too would be better than boarding them with complete strangers to leave them wondering where we went and why. Atleast they were both still at home..together.

5) Gracie is NOT a breeding machine for MONEY! THAT'S SICK! We Love her! The one thing we wished we'd always had from Crystal was a pup from her. We were/are in NO WAY interested in becoming "breeders". Yes, our family started expressing interest in her pups when we found out she was indeed pregnant. We didn't know how many pups she would have...so yes, we were looking ahead at good homes for her babies IF she had a several.

6) As soon as we figured out what was going on we were on the phone with the Vet! We did EVERYTHING he told us to do! INCLUDING taking them both in to be checked out right away! I told him everything that gracie had been doing (behavior wise) and he said that it was ALL NORMAL! We gave her some fluids because the Vet said she was A LITTLE dehydrated. ALSO NORMAL! Also, for the person or people that keep saying that she was hiding her pup because she didn't trust Ron, please explain to my why she went in her kennel last night...picked up her pup and brought him TO RON. He picked the puppy and Gracie up and they all 3 sat on the couch together (with puppy and gracie in a blanket). Why would she do that if she feared his ability to care for her and her child?

7) For those of you that keep SCREAMING to spay our little girl.....you can simply go fly a kite. At this point in time we will NOT be spaying her. She will however in the future be spayed...but not because of YOUR opinions....but because..once again..we do NOT want to use her as a money making object!

This has been a VERY TERRIBLE way for us to learn things...that I openly admit! Please know that the ONLY reason I have spent MY TIME on here to justify ANY of these things is because I do NOT take kindly to being accused of animal abuse when I know in my heart, we did not abuse her! We did a very grave injustice to her and we know that! We are here looking for information and knowledge to make sure that something like this never happens again.

I hope I have made a few things clear that seemed to be getting blurred. I am in no way trying to "bag" on anyone or their opinions...I understand that you love your animals...so do we. I understand why you are upset with us...we're upset too. I understand that (hopefully) NO ONE would want to see a puppy (or mother) suffer...neither do we. We love our little girl and would never do anything to intentionally hurt her OR her puppies.

Thank you for your time in reading MY post.
Cassie

Connie · 10-10-2010, 09:31 AM

This is all so disturbing and senseless. I cannot imagine putting one of my girls in the crate for the night with poop on her butt. We, here at YT, are not perfect, but we ARE responsible pet owners and would have washed them up, no matter what the hour. That poor baby suffering and cold in the garage...that just breaks my heart. These two precious puppies should have had a chance to grow and thrive. One thing that struck me odd was there was no emotion in your thread. Where is the grieving and sadness for the loss of these two babies? Normally, someone who has just lost two babies, would not even be thinking of the "next" time she has pups.

roncassie · 10-10-2010, 09:36 AM

Thanks for response. I do not undervalue the seriousness of the whelping process. Nor do I think I deserved the hate and labels of an abuser. I do not show any understanding to a person who does things like labeling and hating, especially while making assumptions. I refuse to stand by and allow this too happen without a response. I have spent time on here before formally joining to learn as I have with other resources, but that was assumed that i didn't and couldn't do that.

I bet I would have hadalot of different reponses had I just talked about the one pup that passed away this moring. Would have been a whole different conversation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

It is fine to express opinions regarding this thread, because that is allowed on all threads. However, please try to show some compassion. There is nothing wrong with telling someone how you feel, while couching it in a bit of compassion...and a bit of understanding, regardless of the situation.

I think Jim said it best in that, this is a very tragic but preventable loss. It is very sad, on so many levels.

Ron, it is too late now - but I sure wish you had had a mentor to help you with this whelping. Whelpings are life and death situations, and in this case, it resulted in deaths. Please understand that it's difficult for many of us to fathom how one could allow a whelping/breeding to occur without first having exhaustive education regarding breeding. We see tragedies here at YT similar to this, so people are (understandably) very emotional when they see losses such as this. Also Ron, it doesn't help that your replies are pouring fuel on the fire, intentionally. It is up to you too, as a member, to show some understanding in terms of what others may be feeling. It goes both ways.

Please get your precious girl spayed, and take this experience to heart. I wish your girl the best of luck as she heals from this.

roncassie · 10-10-2010, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connie

This is all so disturbing and senseless. I cannot imagine putting one of my girls in the crate for the night with poop on her butt. We, here at YT, are not perfect, but we ARE responsible pet owners and would have washed them up, no matter what the hour. That poor baby suffering and cold in the garage...that just breaks my heart. These two precious puppies should have had a chance to grow and thrive. One thing that struck me odd was there was no emotion in your thread. Where is the grieving and sadness for the loss of these two babies? Normally, someone who has just lost two babies, would not even be thinking of the "next" time she has pups.

this is great.....

No emotion......to assume that I do not care and I am only thinking of the next time. What is done is done..I cannot change that. I am not happy about it, but I cannot hcange it. What I can do is learn and be more prepared for the next time. If there is a next time.

Every single one of you did something different the next time you did it. This was because to learned what to do and what not do. This is a natural thing to do. You ask questions to try and understand.

I appreciate opinions and guidance. I don't appreciate assumptions, labeling, and band wagon negativity. Every single one of us can look at the posts on this thread and think of a way to make it a more positive and learning message than what was typed.

peanut · 10-10-2010, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roncassie

Thanks for response. I do not undervalue the seriousness of the whelping process. Nor do I think I deserved the hate and labels of an abuser. I do not show any understanding to a person who does things like labeling and hating, especially while making assumptions. I refuse to stand by and allow this too happen without a response. I have spent time on here before formally joining to learn as I have with other resources, but that was assumed that i didn't and couldn't do that.

I bet I would have hadalot of different reponses had I just talked about the one pup that passed away this moring. Would have been a whole different conversation.

Why on earth if you spent time one here and had other resources didn't you know that this could happen. You should have had a clue, I am not making any assumptions about you, but if you had all of this wealth of information and didn't know, then I really think you need to spay your girl. Breeding isn't a easy thing, anything can happen, but if you were on here before reading before you Joined today, why didn't you ask before, so you would know what you needed or at least have a more understanding of things that could happen.

BanditSocks2 · 10-10-2010, 10:03 AM

I think it's hard for everyone to imagine the poor puppy suffering all night on the garage floor. Nobody said you did it on purpose or anything, it's just hard for us to picture as I'm sure it is for you. I'm sure the vast majority of people did not intend to insult you they were just giving you advice based on their plethora of knowledge and experience, no matter how frankly it was delivered. All that needs to be thought about is what is best for the dog. If you truly believe that you will be ready for next time you breed her if that is your intent then there's nothing anyone can say on here to stop you. If you think it might be best for her to get spayed (I saw you mentioned doing that in the future) you may want to do it now to prevent any heartache and reap the health benefits.

megansmomma · 10-10-2010, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roncassie

Thanks for response. I do not undervalue the seriousness of the whelping process. Nor do I think I deserved the hate and labels of an abuser. I do not show any understanding to a person who does things like labeling and hating, especially while making assumptions. I refuse to stand by and allow this too happen without a response. I have spent time on here before formally joining to learn as I have with other resources, but that was assumed that i didn't and couldn't do that.

I bet I would have hadalot of different reponses had I just talked about the one pup that passed away this moring. Would have been a whole different conversation.

Since as you stated above you do not plan to spay or neuter this becomes of utmost importance in adding to the Yorkie world. Not making assumptions about your Yorkies so I will just ask outright.

Where did you acquire them from and what are their breeding lines like?

Do you have rights for breeding?
Many dogs are sold on limited registration that does not allow breeding. Reputable breeders do not sell on open registration.

Are the AKC registered?

Do you have contact with the breeder?
You might want to turn to the breeder that sold you your pair for further assistance with breeding. Having a mentor would have eliminated most of the tragedy that occurred.

Do you know about the health and background of your Yorkies?
These are both very important questions that you need to address prior to breeding her/him again. Once again, you can find this information from the breeder that you purchased from.

I am assuming from your previous posts as well that you are the owner of both the male and female. Have they both been tested for LS in the very least? I'm not even sure of all of the other testing that a reputable breeder does prior to breeding but there is a long list of tests that breeders give prior to mating their dogs.

Are you aware of the genetics involved with breeding? Many of the breeders here do extensive testing to help to ensure quality and healthy puppies that they produce.

How old is your little one and how much does she weigh? This is also something that needs to be taken into consideration prior to another litter of puppies.

roncassie · 10-10-2010, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peanut

Why on earth if you spent time one here and had other resources didn't you know that this could happen. You should have had a clue, I am not making any assumptions about you, but if you had all of this wealth of information and didn't know, then I really think you need to spay your girl. Breeding isn't a easy thing, anything can happen, but if you were on here before reading before you Joined today, why didn't you ask before, so you would know what you needed or at least have a more understanding of things that could happen.

I never said or thought something couldn't happen. So you are assuming I had no clue, but you are not assuming that......

It is so easy to continue to point and blame after the fact. You are all great at that.

We will leave. I know you all will be happy. Have fun in your world of blame, hate, and assumptions. It must be better than the learn, grow and help place I thought I found.

megansmomma · 10-10-2010, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roncassie

I never said or thought something couldn't happen. So you are assuming I had no clue, but you are not assuming that......

It is so easy to continue to point and blame after the fact. You are all great at that.

We will leave. I know you all will be happy. Have fun in your world of blame, hate, and assumptions. It must be better than the learn, grow and help place I thought I found.

I really would like to know the answers to my list of questions. They are legitimate things that need to be considered.

10-10-2010, 09:03 AM	#62
Woogie Man Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,564	Ron, there are a couple of things you need to watch out for at this time. You need to watch out for mastitis, since Gracie has no pups to nurse. Her teats could become engorged and an infection set in. Also, a discharge from her vulva is normal for some time (up to a couple of weeks) after giving birth but you should check to make sure it's not smelly. That would be a sign of an infection. The best thing to do at this time is to take her in to your vet and have her checked. He/she could give you further advice on what to watch out for and check her present state of health. __________________ ORANGUTANS ARE DYING FOR THE SAKE OF CHEAP PALM OIL....AND YOU USE IT!!! http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/ani...m-oil-you.html

10-10-2010, 09:23 AM	#66
Wylie's Mom Furbutts = LOVE Donating Member Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 35,889 Blog Entries: 2	It is fine to express opinions regarding this thread, because that is allowed on all threads. However, please try to show some compassion. There is nothing wrong with telling someone how you feel, while couching it in a bit of compassion...and a bit of understanding, regardless of the situation. I think Jim said it best in that, this is a very tragic but preventable loss. It is very sad, on so many levels. Ron, it is too late now - but I sure wish you had had a mentor to help you with this whelping. Whelpings are life and death situations, and in this case, it resulted in deaths. Please understand that it's difficult for many of us to fathom how one could allow a whelping/breeding to occur without first having exhaustive education regarding breeding. We see tragedies here at YT similar to this, so people are (understandably) very emotional when they see losses such as this. Also Ron, it doesn't help that your replies are pouring fuel on the fire, intentionally. It is up to you too, as a member, to show some understanding in terms of what others may be feeling. It goes both ways. Please get your precious girl spayed, and take this experience to heart. I wish your girl the best of luck as she heals from this. __________________ ~ A friend told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn. ~ °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° Ann \| Pfeiffer \| Marcel Verdel Purcell \| Wylie \| Artie °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨°

10-10-2010, 09:31 AM	#68
Connie Loved by Maddie & Libby Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: North Dakota Posts: 10,732	This is all so disturbing and senseless. I cannot imagine putting one of my girls in the crate for the night with poop on her butt. We, here at YT, are not perfect, but we ARE responsible pet owners and would have washed them up, no matter what the hour. That poor baby suffering and cold in the garage...that just breaks my heart. These two precious puppies should have had a chance to grow and thrive. One thing that struck me odd was there was no emotion in your thread. Where is the grieving and sadness for the loss of these two babies? Normally, someone who has just lost two babies, would not even be thinking of the "next" time she has pups. __________________ Custom doggie dresses and vests Memory is a country where I can go to see your face - but where do I go when I miss your embrace? Last edited by Connie; 10-10-2010 at 09:32 AM.

10-10-2010, 09:15 AM	#65
poppys mummy Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: uk Posts: 811 Blog Entries: 1	just reading this for the 1st time , sorry for all the hurt you have gone through sending good wishes your way love jill n poppy xx

10-10-2010, 09:23 AM	#67
roncassie BANNED! Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Not telling you, usa Posts: 28	OK....This is ENOUGH! I know Ron has been arguing with most of you. WE know that we did wrong by her (Gracie). We didn't come here to be called names and labeled as abusive dog owners. I would like to make a few point CLEAR! 1) Gracie has NEVER spent a night in the garage in a wire cage! She has never spent a night in the garage PERIOD! (If you feel the need to know...98% of the time she sleep in bed curled up to RON) 2) For those of you upset at Ron for putting her in her kennel with some poo on her...I understand. I can honestly say I wasn't really happy about that when he told me about it either. But.....it is what it is. If I had been awake...then YES, she would have been cleaned off...which means I HOPEFULLY would have noticed that she was a little more than "wet" on hind end. But there is also no guarantee that I would have thought too much about it. We didn't realize she would be delivering so early. (I say "early" because of when we THOUGHT she should deliver...she actually delivered right on time) 3) We are not now or ever have been a "animal abuser"! She is LOVED and VERY SPOILED...just like Crystal (our Yorkie we had for 14 yrs) was! 4) We did not plan on breeding her in her last heat cycle. Do to circumstances with myself and our kids being out of town and my husband at work our neighbors were helping to take care of our dogs. They did not know that she was in heat. We did not know that she was in heat until it was too late. So after the deed was done we started educating ourselves. Our PLAN was to do the education before we decided IF we would breed her or not. I'm sure that someone will take issue with the fact that we left our neighbors to care for our dogs....well, I'm sorry....I thought being taken care of by people that they KNEW and that loved them too would be better than boarding them with complete strangers to leave them wondering where we went and why. Atleast they were both still at home..together. 5) Gracie is NOT a breeding machine for MONEY! THAT'S SICK! We Love her! The one thing we wished we'd always had from Crystal was a pup from her. We were/are in NO WAY interested in becoming "breeders". Yes, our family started expressing interest in her pups when we found out she was indeed pregnant. We didn't know how many pups she would have...so yes, we were looking ahead at good homes for her babies IF she had a several. 6) As soon as we figured out what was going on we were on the phone with the Vet! We did EVERYTHING he told us to do! INCLUDING taking them both in to be checked out right away! I told him everything that gracie had been doing (behavior wise) and he said that it was ALL NORMAL! We gave her some fluids because the Vet said she was A LITTLE dehydrated. ALSO NORMAL! Also, for the person or people that keep saying that she was hiding her pup because she didn't trust Ron, please explain to my why she went in her kennel last night...picked up her pup and brought him TO RON. He picked the puppy and Gracie up and they all 3 sat on the couch together (with puppy and gracie in a blanket). Why would she do that if she feared his ability to care for her and her child? 7) For those of you that keep SCREAMING to spay our little girl.....you can simply go fly a kite. At this point in time we will NOT be spaying her. She will however in the future be spayed...but not because of YOUR opinions....but because..once again..we do NOT want to use her as a money making object! This has been a VERY TERRIBLE way for us to learn things...that I openly admit! Please know that the ONLY reason I have spent MY TIME on here to justify ANY of these things is because I do NOT take kindly to being accused of animal abuse when I know in my heart, we did not abuse her! We did a very grave injustice to her and we know that! We are here looking for information and knowledge to make sure that something like this never happens again. I hope I have made a few things clear that seemed to be getting blurred. I am in no way trying to "bag" on anyone or their opinions...I understand that you love your animals...so do we. I understand why you are upset with us...we're upset too. I understand that (hopefully) NO ONE would want to see a puppy (or mother) suffer...neither do we. We love our little girl and would never do anything to intentionally hurt her OR her puppies. Thank you for your time in reading MY post. Cassie

10-10-2010, 10:03 AM	#72
BanditSocks2 YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Crofton, MD, USA Posts: 1,522	I think it's hard for everyone to imagine the poor puppy suffering all night on the garage floor. Nobody said you did it on purpose or anything, it's just hard for us to picture as I'm sure it is for you. I'm sure the vast majority of people did not intend to insult you they were just giving you advice based on their plethora of knowledge and experience, no matter how frankly it was delivered. All that needs to be thought about is what is best for the dog. If you truly believe that you will be ready for next time you breed her if that is your intent then there's nothing anyone can say on here to stop you. If you think it might be best for her to get spayed (I saw you mentioned doing that in the future) you may want to do it now to prevent any heartache and reap the health benefits.