Desperate! Need advice

[vbayne]

Originally Posted by JamieP

LOL!!! I love you all!!!! What you all have said is exactly how I feel and where I'm coming from on this! It's driving me crazy not knowing how things are going over there with her. I tried to call her a little while ago and got no answer. The lady is an older lady and I'd say she is probably in bed. I'll call her in the morning tho and will let you all know what happens. Thank you to ALL of you. You've been great to me thru this, very kind and very helpful! I appreciate the support!
God bless you all!!! Please pray for us...

I don't think I would call, I would just go over there and ring her bell.....

[vbayne]

Originally Posted by katie_n_me

It looks like you’re in a real mess; I sure feel for you.

I have some thoughts and advice that may be helpful. Please understand that I am not an attorney, and the advice I will share should not be relied upon as legal advice and you should consult with an attorney in your area for legal advice, if you want your dog back. With that said, here are my thoughts.

It seems like you clearly intended to give this dog away permanently based on your initial post.

However, if this was not your intention and you just wanted this woman to care for this dog temporarily until you were able to yourself, then bailment law seems to apply. Therefore, pursuant to bailment law, upon your demand, the dog would have to be relinquished or a wrongful misappropriation of your dog (property) could have occurred, ergo, embezzlement a.k.a. theft/larceny. If this is the case, you would have the right to use applicable force to retain your dog (property), contact the police as you would for stolen property or pursue legal action.

If it was your intention to give your dog away permanently, then it seems that standard gift law would apply. The primary elements for which are: (1) donative intent on the part of the donor (you), (2) delivery and (3) acceptance by the donee (woman). In order for this gift to be effective all 3 of these elements must exist, most importantly, as seems to be the case here, donative intent. This is important because based on my reading it does not seem you were able to form donative intent due to your extenuating circumstances (courts would look at the nature of the gift-its importance in this instance-and would construe donative intent and applicable law narrowly because of the clear importance of this dog to you, which you raised for 12 years).

Additionally, fraud can render a gift ineffective. For example, if you understood that this woman would take good care of your dog and then it became clear that this was a misrepresentation of fact (i.e., you entered the living room AFTER you wrote what she fraudulently induced you to write. Meaning that she misrepresented the fact that she would take good care of your dog so you would write the note BEFORE she allowed you to see her home-clear evidence to the contrary.), the gift would be ineffective. Thus, title of the property (your dog) could not have transferred, meaning you still own the dog.

On top of all these possible scenarios, pets, such as dogs, can be considered in your jurisdiction human/”human-like” for different purposes. For example, there have been some “wrongful death” cases where dogs died and the damages were formulated in a manner that tracks more similarly to wrongful death suit damages for humans then it does for damages established for destruction of property, which dogs have historically been considered. The trend seems to be moving away from considering dogs as property. Consider the recent rescue effort for the dog stuck in the flooded LA River in CA.

Another way this similarity between dogs and humans is seen is in the defense of others where a dog or human is defended (as an example, the ability to rescue). Because of this, you might be able to defend your dog more like a person rather than property. Also, when exigent circumstances exist, one person can, for example, enter the home of a stranger, even forcefully, if they saw the home on fire and entered with the intent to help the people inside. This could mean that if you had a reasonable belief that your dog, or even possibly another dog, was in immediate danger, you could use reasonable force you believe reasonably necessary to protect that dog.

Now that I’ve informed you of my thoughts, it does seem you face some difficulties. For example, chances are if you use this information to contact your local police requesting that they assist you to get your dog (your property), they will likely not know what I have stated here. So, you will have to explain to them the facts as you’ve presented them considering what I have said: You intended to give your dog to this lady. There are extenuating circumstances and you were incapable of possessing the requisite intent, therefore, you were unable to effectively give this dog as a gift. Also explain, how you were fraudulently deceived, voiding the gift (as explained above). You want your dog returned immediately. You have requested return of your dog (do it, if you haven’t) and she has refused. As a result, she has your stolen your property which you still desire to possess and request their assistance. If, in this process, she references the “note” which has your signature, state the following: (1) As stated, a gift must have the requisite donative intent, which as a result of the extenuating circumstances (duress), did not exist; (2) As stated, due to the fraudulent misrepresentation, the gift was not effective (you didn’t “give it” to her). Reassert your position-you want your property back.

It might not be advisable, despite what I have said, to try something on your own using force to get your dog back. The animal rescue groups may help you, as others have stated. The only other option I can think of is legal action (I would suspect this would be free considering your financial position). The action would be essentially the same, i.e., there was no gift, she wrongfully possesses your property, you want it returned immediately and you want the potential danger which exists for your dog alleviated by the court.

Not sure how far you want to take this or even if you want your dog back for sure. Maybe if you just throw some of these terms around with the woman she’ll relinquish your dog. She may well be aware of some legality since she had you write the “note” and may, then, reconsider her position.

I really tried to be of some help. I hope I was and wasn’t confusing. I have to confess, my son, a descendant of Clarence Darrow, did this (LOL).

I can tell that Ciera means a lot to you and I wish the best outcome for you all. Get your dog back, if that’s what you want.

I wish you all the best.

WOW, and you are not an attorney?? You should be! lol

[JamieP]

Originally Posted by GPONTLITZ

I'm hoping you bring your elder care baby back home, aren't there any family or relatives that could help care for her till your in better shape.. my heart breaks to hear you gave her up.

I'm hoping I have a right to get her back!!! I wish I had gone with my gut and just rushed her back out of there! Instead, all I could think about at the time was the medical care this woman could give her. But as someone said earlier, if I'm not comfortable with what I've done, there has to be a reason for it.
No, my relatives are struggling as it is with the economy the way it is. This is a tough time for a lot of people and I see no light at the end of this! It's just sad when a person has to go to this extreme!
Thank you for your concern. I feel so much better knowing you all are there for me..

[JamieP]

Originally Posted by katie_n_me

It looks like you’re in a real mess; I sure feel for you.

I have some thoughts and advice that may be helpful. Please understand that I am not an attorney, and the advice I will share should not be relied upon as legal advice and you should consult with an attorney in your area for legal advice, if you want your dog back. With that said, here are my thoughts.

It seems like you clearly intended to give this dog away permanently based on your initial post.

However, if this was not your intention and you just wanted this woman to care for this dog temporarily until you were able to yourself, then bailment law seems to apply. Therefore, pursuant to bailment law, upon your demand, the dog would have to be relinquished or a wrongful misappropriation of your dog (property) could have occurred, ergo, embezzlement a.k.a. theft/larceny. If this is the case, you would have the right to use applicable force to retain your dog (property), contact the police as you would for stolen property or pursue legal action.

If it was your intention to give your dog away permanently, then it seems that standard gift law would apply. The primary elements for which are: (1) donative intent on the part of the donor (you), (2) delivery and (3) acceptance by the donee (woman). In order for this gift to be effective all 3 of these elements must exist, most importantly, as seems to be the case here, donative intent. This is important because based on my reading it does not seem you were able to form donative intent due to your extenuating circumstances (courts would look at the nature of the gift-its importance in this instance-and would construe donative intent and applicable law narrowly because of the clear importance of this dog to you, which you raised for 12 years).

Additionally, fraud can render a gift ineffective. For example, if you understood that this woman would take good care of your dog and then it became clear that this was a misrepresentation of fact (i.e., you entered the living room AFTER you wrote what she fraudulently induced you to write. Meaning that she misrepresented the fact that she would take good care of your dog so you would write the note BEFORE she allowed you to see her home-clear evidence to the contrary.), the gift would be ineffective. Thus, title of the property (your dog) could not have transferred, meaning you still own the dog.

On top of all these possible scenarios, pets, such as dogs, can be considered in your jurisdiction human/”human-like” for different purposes. For example, there have been some “wrongful death” cases where dogs died and the damages were formulated in a manner that tracks more similarly to wrongful death suit damages for humans then it does for damages established for destruction of property, which dogs have historically been considered. The trend seems to be moving away from considering dogs as property. Consider the recent rescue effort for the dog stuck in the flooded LA River in CA.

Another way this similarity between dogs and humans is seen is in the defense of others where a dog or human is defended (as an example, the ability to rescue). Because of this, you might be able to defend your dog more like a person rather than property. Also, when exigent circumstances exist, one person can, for example, enter the home of a stranger, even forcefully, if they saw the home on fire and entered with the intent to help the people inside. This could mean that if you had a reasonable belief that your dog, or even possibly another dog, was in immediate danger, you could use reasonable force you believe reasonably necessary to protect that dog.

Now that I’ve informed you of my thoughts, it does seem you face some difficulties. For example, chances are if you use this information to contact your local police requesting that they assist you to get your dog (your property), they will likely not know what I have stated here. So, you will have to explain to them the facts as you’ve presented them considering what I have said: You intended to give your dog to this lady. There are extenuating circumstances and you were incapable of possessing the requisite intent, therefore, you were unable to effectively give this dog as a gift. Also explain, how you were fraudulently deceived, voiding the gift (as explained above). You want your dog returned immediately. You have requested return of your dog (do it, if you haven’t) and she has refused. As a result, she has your stolen your property which you still desire to possess and request their assistance. If, in this process, she references the “note” which has your signature, state the following: (1) As stated, a gift must have the requisite donative intent, which as a result of the extenuating circumstances (duress), did not exist; (2) As stated, due to the fraudulent misrepresentation, the gift was not effective (you didn’t “give it” to her). Reassert your position-you want your property back.

It might not be advisable, despite what I have said, to try something on your own using force to get your dog back. The animal rescue groups may help you, as others have stated. The only other option I can think of is legal action (I would suspect this would be free considering your financial position). The action would be essentially the same, i.e., there was no gift, she wrongfully possesses your property, you want it returned immediately and you want the potential danger which exists for your dog alleviated by the court.

Not sure how far you want to take this or even if you want your dog back for sure. Maybe if you just throw some of these terms around with the woman she’ll relinquish your dog. She may well be aware of some legality since she had you write the “note” and may, then, reconsider her position.

I really tried to be of some help. I hope I was and wasn’t confusing. I have to confess, my son, a descendant of Clarence Darrow, did this (LOL).

I can tell that Ciera means a lot to you and I wish the best outcome for you all. Get your dog back, if that’s what you want.

I wish you all the best.

Wow!! You put some well needed legal advice out there for me and it does give me some comfort in knowing that I may just be able to get her back. I do believe some of that does apply to my current situation. When I didn't get a chance to see her entire home BEFORE I was asked to write that I giving her to the woman, I do believe is misrepresentation. I feel really stupid for going ahead with leaving her despite that. Shame on me for not thinking of the way she'd have to live instead of putting her health care in 1st place. That squaller could cause a health condition!!!!
I'm going to do my best in getting her back because I feel that there was no imminent danger to her health that needed to be addressed right away. She had a few things that needed to be done that I haven't been able to afford just yet. It bothered me to the point that I would mentally beat myself up for it. Feeling I was neglecting her needs. That is tough to overcome. Makes you feel like an evil person.

Thank you so much for this advice. You've been more than helpful!

[kionini]

Originally Posted by vbayne

That 'contract' is not even worth the paper it is written on. GO get her!! Quickly!!

it can't hold too much. You were under severe STRESS!!! when you made the decision of leaving your little girl. What you're going through is very difficult and most people will get it, especially these days when a lot of people are going through the same. If the lady is truly a caring individual, she will understand and let her go home with you, no problem. Go get your baby

[joeys mom]

I don't think she would have any intention of letting you have her back. Based on her having you sign something stating you were giving her the rights to the dog. I would contact the shelter that referred her to you and demand animal control go with you to retrive your baby. If this didn't work, I would wait 5 days and demand her to provide you proof she had taken the dog to the vet. If not I would then contact the police dept and have them escort you to her home to retrieve your dog that you have reg. papers on. I would tell them you signed the paper so she would have the right to seek the much needed medical treatment for her, if she hasn't taken her to the vet by the 5th day she is showing she does not have her best interest at heart. However, if she has taken her in, perhaps she truly does care about her and is going to help her. Trying to see her point, perhaps she does want to help animals that may go untreated or have a warm safe home to live in. Only you know how the place really was and if after sleeping on it, in your mind and heart it isn't the situation you feel is best for the dog, I would go get her. It being Sunday your shelter may not be open, so I would go to her home with a witness and try to get her back yourself. I'm curious, did she discuss what her intention was of seeking medical attention for her? If you do go and try to get her and she refuses I wouldn't mention the medical attention your dog needs, it could tip her off to take her to the vet to protect herself in being able to keep her. Good Luck and prayers are with you.

[JamieP]

Originally Posted by vbayne

I don't think I would call, I would just go over there and ring her bell.....

I'm laughing at that comment! Too funny!!!! If only it were that simple I would, really. At this point, IF I have no recourse in getting her back, and she does get to keep her, I don't want to make her mad. Then I would never see her again. I have to make SURE that what I do and say to her I can back up. I have a call in to a cop friend of mine here. He has yet to call me back but I'm hoping to hear from him by tomorrow. He's been on the force for a very long time and he would know what I can and can't do. She's going to know if I go knocking on her door that I'm not there for a visit since she made it clear that I couldn't come and see Ciera for a month or two. Since she has the 'written contract' she can call the police if she had a mind to and get me booted. And she may. I don't really know her.

[JamieP]

Originally Posted by joeys mom

I don't think she would have any intention of letting you have her back. Based on her having you sign something stating you were giving her the rights to the dog. I would contact the shelter that referred her to you and demand animal control go with you to retrive your baby. If this didn't work, I would wait 5 days and demand her to provide you proof she had taken the dog to the vet. If not I would then contact the police dept and have them escort you to her home to retrieve your dog that you have reg. papers on. I would tell them you signed the paper so she would have the right to seek the much needed medical treatment for her, if she hasn't taken her to the vet by the 5th day she is showing she does not have her best interest at heart. However, if she has taken her in, perhaps she truly does care about her and is going to help her. Trying to see her point, perhaps she does want to help animals that may go untreated or have a warm safe home to live in. Only you know how the place really was and if after sleeping on it, in your mind and heart it isn't the situation you feel is best for the dog, I would go get her. It being Sunday your shelter may not be open, so I would go to her home with a witness and try to get her back yourself. I'm curious, did she discuss what her intention was of seeking medical attention for her? If you do go and try to get her and she refuses I wouldn't mention the medical attention your dog needs, it could tip her off to take her to the vet to protect herself in being able to keep her. Good Luck and prayers are with you.

No, she didn't say anything about that but she knew it was the reason why I needed to give her up.
I wont say anything about the vet to her. I actually thought maybe the best way to attempt to get her without the help of the police would be to tell her that Ciera is actually legally my ex-husbands dog and that he has her paperwork. I told her when I dropped her off that I couldn't find her papers. So I could say that the reason I couldn't find them is because I had forgotten that I had signed her over to my husband 3 yrs ago. See, my husband and I are separated and he DID initially take Ciera with him because she was HIS baby. But he ended up moving away and at the time took her with him. Considering the hours he was working at the time along with the fact that he was living in a motel room and gone for 12 or more hours a day, he brought her back to me. He had, up until 8 months ago helped me with her care but has since fallen on hard times as well and can't help me. Don't get me wrong, he is furious with me for the decision I just made but she is NOT legally his. She is registered to me. Just an idea I had. Of course my mind is racing with ideas right now because I'm looking for a solution for the mess I have created. I just thought that if I told her that she is legally his and that he reminded me of that when I talked to him. (and yes, I do still talk to him!!! lol!) He did tell me to march back over there and get her because we had made it this long with her that we could've undoubtedly made it to the end. When I told him that I was forced to sign her away, he said that she COULD hold me to it, but in the end she probably couldn't use it for much more than something to clean up the poop in her home with!!! lol!! I'm willing to try anything at this point.

[joeys mom]

I just thought of something, I was watching Judge Judy last week and a lady took another to court over selling her a dog. She stated she changed her mind and the girl hadn't paid her completely for the dog. The girl showed where she took the money out of the bank and had the reg. papers where the lady signed over ownership of the dog. Did the lady not know she was registered? Why wouldn't have she asked you to do this instead of signing some piece of paper? Now granted it didn't sound to good for the lady anyways but when she signed over ownership, the deal was sealed. In your case those reg. papers may be the key in getting her back. Heck, I would go to her door, with the witness, show her the papers and say, gosh, I didn't leave these with you, well lets get these filled out and i would make my way into the house. Of course at this time, I would say oh where is Ciera, I just want to see her before I sign these, As soon as I had her in my arms, I'd head outa there with fire on my heals. Let her try to sue you to get her back......

[gigis_mom]

Originally Posted by toke

instead of making any kind of comment to the woman, or making any decision of your own at this point....why not just call and say you're suffering agonies of missing ciera and need to see her right away to ease your mind.

See what the woman says. See how ciera is doing. Go from there. As for mess...that's nothing, imo. It's all about the love and attention and care, you know? I don't think dogs have any conception whatsoever of proper housecleaning. That's all in our heads.

I agree completely with this. You just need to go slow and stay calm for all of your sakes. If you show up over there all upset ciera will know and become upset as well. Let us know how it goes.

[ellabee]

best of luck in whatever you decide to do - I was suggesting involving the shelter that recommend her to you so that there is a third party there to assist in talking sense into the lady that has her, and that can address the state of the home and check on the other pup you saw there that you have concerns for.

if you decide in the end that you cannot keep her, and need her to go to a stable, safe, healthy home, then please consider posting here for a member to take her in for you. there are lots of helpful, loving yorkie people here that want nothing more than a happy ending for you and your pup.

[LilMissy]

I really think that it's important to act quickly on this. I would get her back tomorrow. If the lady won't answer the phone, just go there. Good Luck! Please keep us updated. I've got my fingers crossed for you that everything works out.

[JamieP]

Originally Posted by LilMissy

I really think that it's important to act quickly on this. I would get her back tomorrow. If the lady won't answer the phone, just go there. Good Luck! Please keep us updated. I've got my fingers crossed for you that everything works out.

I agree! That's what I was thinking. I will keep you all posted and thank you all again for your help and support. Don't know what I would've done without you all. God bless each and every one of you.

[Jennxling]

From the description of the woman's house, it sounds very similar to my father's living condition. He doesn't have a sense of cleanliness nor hygiene and I have to live with him. Luckily, I have my room (he sleeps in living room) so I have a door to isolate myself from the filth. My dad COULD NEVER own a dog, and the woman you described reminded me of him. I mean, I am not the cleanest person, but at least I don't have trash and urine stains on the carpet, I just have lots of stuff. Despite all that, I have form a section for my two yorkies to play in comfortably and they have a stair that allow them access to my bed. Thus, from what I've read, I don't think this lady is eligible to take care of your baby. What did her yorkie look like? Was her yorkie matted and look like she needed some TLC? In addition, I feel that her not allowing you to see your dog because "she's adjusting" is BS + shady. If I were to adopt a yorkie and the previous owner wanted to see her, I would let her because I know it's hard for both the dog and previous owner. For instance, I bought my yorkie from a breeder and I sent her pictures of him so she knows he is taken care of. With her not letting you see her, I sense something is seriously wrong. I wish you best of luck!! Your situation is not entirely your fault so don't be too harsh on yourself. I could see myself in your position, however, my bf and I made a promise with each other that we will never give up our yorkies when we got them. A couple years back, I had to give up my chorkie and the family was my aunt's church friend. They lost the dog TWICE after ONLY having him for LESS THAN TWO WEEKS!!! Unfortunately, the second time, they didn't find him and I didn't even sense that they really cared. TO THIS DAY, it still pissed me off and I still hold myself for it. It is a mistake I would never repeat. Sorry for going on and on, but I pray that everything work out and your baby return safely in your hands. I totally understand financial difficulties, don't feel alone, me and along with many others are also experiencing it. I would recommend keeping her since you've had her for 11 years! I think it's truly an amazing experience to own a dog for its entire life. Best of luck and keep us posted please!

[JamieP]

Originally Posted by vbayne

I don't think I would call, I would just go over there and ring her bell.....

I didn't mean my other comment to sound like anything other than it just being humorous, as in 'go over and ring her bell' funny!! I know my comment to that could be taken differently but Lord, it's not at all how it was meant. So I just wanted you to know that.

With that, I'm also going to let everyone know that this ordeal and how it could go has literally kept me up all night long. Not a wink of sleep. I'm either going to bring her back home where all is good, or I'm going to lose her forever with what I'm about to do. I am so distraught over this that I am physically ill!! I'm going to ponder it over for a few more hours before I make my decision. But I will post and give you all an update as to what I've decided. PLEASE....everyone that may stumble onto this thread, say a prayer for me and and my Ciera that whatever happens is meant to be and that we may find peace with it.