Designer Dogs

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Mutts are generally healthier than purebred dogs? Seriously?I am sorry, but I completely disagree with this statement and am curious as to where you are getting the information to support this claim or if it is all your own speculation? (I'm not trying to be smart, but if you have documented reserach to back up these claims, I would LOVE to see it as I've tried to find proof to similar claims and have not found any.)
In order to factually declare that "the best of both breeds shows up most of the time," you would have to have large amounts of compiled long term research performed on various pups produceds as a result of mixing breeds. Which breeders of these designers dogs are taking the time to carry out that kind of research? Until that happens, it's nothing more than a theory.

In regards to the Boxer/Bulldog theory you give example of...
I have my doubts that what you have proposed would actually work out the way you claim it would. Bulldogs have a larger cranial structure than Boxers. How would breeding a male Bulldog to a female Boxer would 'birthing problems?' I would think it would do just the opposite if you have a female Boxer, with a birth canal suitable for Boxers trying to free whelp a litter of dogs produced by a dog with a much larger crainal structure.

I'm sure that you can selectively choose breeds and eventually, IF you have an extensive working knoweldge of canine genetic, breed and eliminate given traits. However, the same can be done with purebred dogs. Many of the breed specific genetic issue that you are referring to can be eliminated in purebred dogs as well. The problem is, there are many breeders of purebreds and designer breeds alike that don't dedicate that kind of time and devotion to actually doing it.

I think that is an old theory based on the idea that by mixing breeds you are lessening the chances of the mixed breed having any of the ailments that are common to either breed. IMO it does have some merit, but would not say that it is true in all cases.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Cha Cha

No, no, no. You see, this is where you and I see it different. With hybrid vigor, if you already have "correct" animals, you are not eliminating anything "unwanted" (that is selective breeding).

No, I understand. But even if you have "correct" animals, you may not be trying to eliminate something unwanted, but depending on how the genetics show up, you may end up producing something unwanted. You may not get the results you'd hoped for. So you may be achieving hybrid vigor by literal definition purposes (meaning hybird=mix, vigor=more prominant trait), but you wouldn't neccessarily be achieving it in regards to having produced a "better, more healthy" dog. (And then again as far as "better" is concerned, who is the judge on that?)

I fully get what you mean in regards to those crossing dogs for a legitimate purpose. But even if you start out with perfect specimens of differing breeds, the pups they produced may not be "healthier o better or the desire outcome" depending on how genetics play out. So then, if those dogs have NOT inherited the best of both breeds, could you really claim they have "hybrid vigor" in the sense that some do. (As in terms other than literal definition of the phrase.)

I do however think our interpretations of "selective breeding" differ though. I see it as when you give careful consideration to genetics and match dogs with the based on how you believe the two will compliment each other...be that for the intent of repeating, eliminating or promoting certain traits. NOT just for the purposes of eliminating traits. But that is just a difference of how we understand it.

[Cha Cha]

That's the whole point of our discussion. I am talking about legitimate breeding programs with proven outcomes. You are talking about a random mating to produce a "designer" dog. You don't see crosses like I mentioned (Aussies and BC) at pet stores. Because the farmers breeding them already have homes for their puppies before they are ever born, not to mention that you'd bre hard pressed to find a farmer that would pay a pet store price as they are larger dogs and not your average pet store shopper gets too excited about a dog that will grow up to be large and active. They are working with trial and error and expanding on what has worked and trashed what has not. Also, when you ask them what kind of dog they have, they will flat out say "he is 1/2 Aussie and 1/2 BC." They don't call him an Aussome Collie. We really are saying the same thing just from different sides of the issue.

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I think that is an old theory based on the idea that by mixing breeds you are lessening the chances of the mixed breed having any of the ailments that are common to either breed. IMO it does have some merit, but would not say that it is true in all cases.

It is really just a matter of mixing up the gene pool. Nothing more.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Cha Cha

That's the whole point of our discussion. I am talking about legitimate breeding programs with proven outcomes. You are talking about a random mating to produce a "designer" dog. You don't see crosses like I mentioned (Aussies and BC) at pet stores. Because the farmers breeding them already have homes for their puppies before they are ever born, not to mention that you'd bre hard pressed to find a farmer that would pay a pet store price. They are working with trial and error and expanding on what has worked and trashed what has not. Also, when you ask them what kind of dog they have, they will flat out say "he is 1/2 Aussie and 1/2 BC?" They don't call him an Aussome Collie. We really are saying the same thing just from different sides of the issue.

Yes...agreed. We are on the same page. Thank goodness, because now my brain hurts!

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by MaddiesMommie

All this talk about mix breeding got me to researching the Yorkie history, and guess what...they are a mixed breed!!! LOL
Huddersfield Ben, the sire of the breed, was from the Scottish Terrier, the Clydesdale Terrier and the Paisley Terrier. (The Scottish being the only one who still exists.)
Also, the original Yorkshire's were 30 lbs! and came in a variety of colors.

That is common knowledge, which is where the huge controversy of the variety of colors comes in. The variety of breeds used to make up the YT was a mix of colors both solid and spotted.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

All purebred dogs are mixed breeds because they all originated from wolves 16,000 years ago (don't quote me for certain on this time frame because as old as I am I still wasn't around then).

not trying to start an argument, just curious as to how you get mixed breed if they all started as wolves. Would not that make them all Wolves?

I know they all started from wolves, but the statement did not make sense to me.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see the transformation from wolf to yorkie. And how all the variety of looks came about when they all started from wolves.

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Yes...agreed. We are on the same page. Thank goodness, because now my brain hurts!

LOL! It's pretty bad when I have to resort to the internet to get a great discussion. Something about a man sitting in front of a football game (aka hubby) just doesn't cut it.

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

not trying to start an argument, just curious as to how you get mixed breed if they all started as wolves. Would not that make them all Wolves?

I know they all started from wolves, but the statement did not make sense to me.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see the transformation from wolf to yorkie. And how all the variety of looks came about when they all started from wolves.

I believe there is actually a chart available that shows this very thing. My vet used to have one hanging in the patient room, and you are right, it is interesting to see how they evolved.

[cj125]

Are there wolves in Egypt?

[cj125]

Originally Posted by Cha Cha

There is plenty of research to support hybrid vigor as well. I myself, have seen and studied it. Since science is just that, science, you can find research to support any theory. Plain and simple. If you breed junk you will get junk. There is nothing you can do to change that, regardless of what you are breeding. Genetic defects (like undershot/overshot jaws just for example) will be passed on to at least some offspring if not all regardless if one parent is correct. There is a difference between disease and genetic defects and both need to be considered. Hybrid vigor is not going to change that. Hybrid vigor is about getting the best of two already exceptional animals. Now, if you breed two so so animals you will not get exceptional from that. Nice thought, but not going to happen. It is about dominant genes and recessive genes specific to each mating and health and genetic history of each animal involved. If people are working with a specific breeding program they know what they are doing. But, with all the hype over designer dogs and people trying to cash in on a fad with no regard to the history of the animal they are mating, it is going to be disasterous and the dog pays the price. In science, no one rule always applies to everything.

This is what the thread was all about!

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by cj125

Are there wolves in Egypt?

Yes, but they are very rare Desert Wolves. They are elusive and rarely seen by human eyes. They thrive on a diet of mainly Asparagus, Coconut and Summer Sausage.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by cj125

Are there wolves in Egypt?

I'm sure you could find that information on the internet.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I'm sure you could find that information on the internet.

Awwww crap. I thought we were on the internet.

(I kid, I kid.)

The Search for Hidden Chambers on the Giza Plateau, Part I

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Yes, but they are very rare Desert Wolves. They are elusive and rarely seen by human eyes. They thrive on a diet of mainly Asparagus, Coconut and Summer Sausage.

All of those are very plentiful on the dessert.