Designer Dogs

[chachi]

Originally Posted by elliebear

I have a shorkie (shi tzu cross Yorkie) she is adorable ! I wanted a sister for Daisy (Yorkie) but wasn't sure to get another Yorkie or a shi tzu then i came across the advert for Lola went and had a look and everything was all perfect.
To me she's more shi tzu with a slightly longer snout,Yorkie colourings and Yorkie eyes, but i love her so much she's my baby and i think that's all that matters.

I dont think they should be bred. Theres plenty of mixed breeds at shelters that need homes and If people werent buying designer dogs they would go to a shelter for their mixed breed dog.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Cha Cha

However, when you breed two dogs from different breeds, you actually do get the best of both breeds most times. Generally, it is the best genes that show up and a genetic problem that plagues one particular breed of the mating will not show up in the mixed breed animals of any species. Because of this, mutts and cross bred dogs are generally healthier animals with less genetic predisposition to specific disorders. One example of this is that certain types of bull dogs have probles birthing and often need C-sections. If you were to take female dogs from say a Boxer who does not generally have birthing problems but still in the bull dog family, and mate that dog with a male bull dog (whose breed does have problems) the resulting litter of puppies would likely not have the birthing problems plagued by the breed of the bull dog that does.

Mutts are generally healthier than purebred dogs? Seriously?
I am sorry, but I completely disagree with this statement and am curious as to where you are getting the information to support this claim or if it is all your own speculation? (I'm not trying to be smart, but if you have documented reserach to back up these claims, I would LOVE to see it as I've tried to find proof to similar claims and have not found any.)
In order to factually declare that "the best of both breeds shows up most of the time," you would have to have large amounts of compiled long term research performed on various pups produceds as a result of mixing breeds. Which breeders of these designers dogs are taking the time to carry out that kind of research? Until that happens, it's nothing more than a theory.

In regards to the Boxer/Bulldog theory you give example of...
I have my doubts that what you have proposed would actually work out the way you claim it would. Bulldogs have a larger cranial structure than Boxers. How would breeding a male Bulldog to a female Boxer would 'birthing problems?' I would think it would do just the opposite if you have a female Boxer, with a birth canal suitable for Boxers trying to free whelp a litter of dogs produced by a dog with a much larger crainal structure.

I'm sure that you can selectively choose breeds and eventually, IF you have an extensive working knoweldge of canine genetic, breed and eliminate given traits. However, the same can be done with purebred dogs. Many of the breed specific genetic issue that you are referring to can be eliminated in purebred dogs as well. The problem is, there are many breeders of purebreds and designer breeds alike that don't dedicate that kind of time and devotion to actually doing it.

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Mutts are generally healthier than purebred dogs? Seriously?
I am sorry, but I completely disagree with this statement and am curious as to where you are getting the information to support this claim or if it is all your own speculation? (I'm not trying to be smart, but if you have documented reserach to back up these claims, I would LOVE to see it as I've tried to find proof to similar claims and have not found any.)
In order to factually declare that "the best of both breeds shows up most of the time," you would have to have large amounts of compiled long term research performed on various pups produceds as a result of mixing breeds. Which breeders of these designers dogs are taking the time to carry out that kind of research? Until that happens, it's nothing more than a theory.

In regards to the Boxer/Bulldog theory you give example of...
I have my doubts that what you have proposed would actually work out the way you claim it would. Bulldogs have a larger cranial structure than Boxers. How would breeding a male Bulldog to a female Boxer would 'birthing problems?' I would think it would do just the opposite if you have a female Boxer, with a birth canal suitable for Boxers trying to free whelp a litter of dogs produced by a dog with a much larger crainal structure.

I'm sure that you can selectively choose breeds and eventually, IF you have an extensive working knoweldge of canine genetic, breed and eliminate given traits. However, the same can be done with purebred dogs. Many of the breed specific genetic issue that you are referring to can be eliminated in purebred dogs as well. The problem is, there are many breeders of purebreds and designer breeds alike that don't dedicate that kind of time and devotion to actually doing it.

How does a degree in animal science with studies in genetics along with a lifetime of living on a farm raising cattle putting this very practice into work do for you?

You are right about the same being done for purebred dogs, except then it is call selective breeding. You are selective breeding for a trait you want to show up in your offspring. When you breed two animals from different breeds it is because you want the best genetics from each breed to show up in your crossbred offspring and that is called cross breeding. Does it always work, of course not. There is a fine line between inbreeding and line breeding and what do you think would happen to humans if we regularly practiced inbreeding? The exact same things happen in animals and more often than you might think. Wha la! Genetic problems, no wonder.

[Cha Cha]

I am sorry, I did not answer the bull dog question. Bull dogs, have a physical disadvantage when it comes to birthing as well it is not always about the size of the resulting puppy. They cannot physically move around to clean and help themselves during the birthing process like other breeds. Boxers can. You would never mate the male boxer to the female bulldog to correct this problem, that would be defeating your purpose and you would still have birthing problems, at least with that litter. That is why I used the two as a reference.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Cha Cha

How does a degree in animal science with studies in genetics along with a lifetime of living on a farm raising cattle putting this very practice into work do for you?

As far as a lifetime of raising cattle...that's impressive, or would be if we were discussing cows. Still, my question remains unanswered. Your possession of a degree alone, though admirable, does not stand as validation of your claims. Again, in order for those claims to be fact instead of theory, they have to be based on compiled, long term research, done over several generations of offspring, of multiple breeds--something that there doesn't seem to be any of.

Originally Posted by Cha Cha

You are right about the same being done for purebred dogs, except then it is call selective breeding. You are selective breeding for a trait you want to show up in your offspring. When you breed two animals from different breeds it is because you want the best genetics from each breed to show up in your crossbred offspring and that is called cross breeding. Does it always work, of course not. There is a fine line between inbreeding and line breeding and what do you think would happen to humans if we regularly practiced inbreeding? The exact same things happen in animals and more often than you might think. Wha la! Genetic problems, no wonder.

I'm certainly not arguing with you in regards to the aspect of line breeding and inbreeding! I would never condone that type of breeding, so I hope you are not misunderstanding that to be what I am supporting! "Selective breeding" is not something limted to purebred dogs...anytime you are breeding for the purpose of enhancing or eliminating a given fault or trait, it is selective breeding, be it purebred or mutt.
Regardless, you have enforced the point I was trying to make to begin with. With crossing breeds, you may eliminate certain undesireable traits/issues, but then again, you may not. You may get just the opposite...the worst of both breeds. If someone were taking the appropriate steps to record and evaluate the process in a very effecient, meaningful manner, then that's one thing and I would fully support it. But the problem is, that is NOT happening with most of the shady breeders mass producing these 'designer dogs.' That is what I, and I think others, have such an issue with. At this point, it seems to be no more than a weak attempt that many use to justify indiscriminate breeding practices.

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

As far as a lifetime of raising cattle...that's impressive, or would be if we were discussing cows. Still, my question remains unanswered. Your possession of a degree alone, though admirable, does not stand as validation of your claims. Again, in order for those claims to be fact instead of theory, they have to be based on compiled, long term research, done over several generations of offspring, of multiple breeds--something that there doesn't seem to be any of.



I'm certainly not arguing with you in regards to the aspect of line breeding and inbreeding! I would never condone that type of breeding, so I hope you are not misunderstanding that to be what I am supporting! "Selective breeding" is not something limted to purebred dogs...anytime you are breeding for the purpose of enhancing or eliminating a given fault or trait, it is selective breeding, be it purebred or mutt.
Regardless, you have enforced the point I was trying to make to begin with. With crossing breeds, you may eliminate certain undesireable traits/issues, but then again, you may not. You may get just the opposite...the worst of both breeds. If someone were taking the appropriate steps to record and evaluate the process in a very effecient, meaningful manner, then that's one thing and I would fully support it. But the problem is, that is NOT happening with most of the shady breeders mass producing these 'designer dogs.' That is what I, and I think others, have such an issue with. At this point, it seems to be no more than a weak attempt that many use to justify indiscriminate breeding practices.

It really doesn't matter if we talk about cows, dogs, horses, pigs, plants, or humans. It all works the very same way.

No, I absolutely do not think you are arguing with me at all, I am here to inform as well as learn. Selective breeding is generally referred to when you are actually mating two animlas from two purebred parents to concentrate on a specific trait.

If you were looking for information to back this up look up "hybrid vigor", or "heterosis." That is what a cross bred animal is actually referred to, a hybrid.

Science Dictionary
hybrid vigor
The increased vigor or general health, resistance to disease, and other superior qualities that are often manifested in hybrid organisms, especially plants and animals. Compare inbreeding depression.

And you are right, I still prefer the benefits of purebred animals over crossbreds any day of the week unless you are talking about my T-bone steak! LOL.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Cha Cha

Bull dogs, have a physical disadvantage when it comes to birthing as well it is not always about the size of the resulting puppy. They cannot physically move around to clean and help themselves during the birthing process like other breeds. Boxers can. You would never mate the male boxer to the female bulldog to correct this problem, that would be defeating your purpose and you would still have birthing problems, at least with that litter.

I understand the issues then that you would have if you went that route then. But if you went the other way around, you would still have the problems that I mentioned before--there would not be a reduced chance of delivery by c-section. If anything, it seems the likelyhood would increase.

Not to mention, that then you run the risk of doubling up on other genetic issues specific to each breed. You are taking a breed succeptable to Dialated Cardiomyopathy (Boxer) and breeding it to a dog that is prone to breathing issues (Bulldog). Can you imagine the nightmare that would be!? And those are issue that you can't "selectively avoid" as they are structural, not just something passed on genetically.
Or consider the fact that you are taking Boxers, prone to Corneal Dystrophy and combining with a BullDog gene pool with flatter faces and protruding eyes. Again, not good.

Point being...how are you getting healther dogs by combining these two breeds you have chosen to use as an example? Furthermore, what's the point?

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I understand the issues then that you would have if you went that route then. But if you went the other way around, you would still have the problems that I mentioned before--there would not be a reduced chance of delivery by c-section. If anything, it seems the likelyhood would increase.

Not to mention, that then you run the risk of doubling up on other genetic issues specific to each breed. You are taking a breed succeptable to Dialated Cardiomyopathy (Boxer) and breeding it to a dog that is prone to breathing issues (Bulldog). Can you imagine the nightmare that would be!? And those are issue that you can't "selectively avoid" as they are structural, not just something passed on genetically.
Or consider the fact that you are taking Boxers, prone to Corneal Dystrophy and combining with a BullDog gene pool with flatter faces and protruding eyes. Again, not good.

Point being...how are you getting healther dogs by combining these two breeds you have chosen to use as an example? Furthermore, what's the point?

Not necessarily so. I have Silkies and they are actually a very good point for this discussion. Silkies were in fact bred from Yorkies and Australian Terriers. Those two breeds alone! Up until the first quarter of this century it was acceptable to mate back they hybred offspring (first generation) to either another Yorkie or Australian Terrier, or another hybred offspring from another litter. Today, we have the Standard Silky Terrier from this. The Silky Terrier today, does not have the genetic problems we are seeing so often in the Yorkie Terriers. Not the true Silkies anyways. One reason I love the breed so. Now, if we continue to mate Silkies back to Yorkies and falsify papers and sell them as something else, then ABSOLUTELY they will begin to show those genetic problems too!

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Cha Cha

If you were looking for information to back this up look up "hybrid vigor", or "heterosis." That is what a cross bred animal is actually referred to, a hybrid.

Science Dictionary
hybrid vigor
The increased vigor or general health, resistance to disease, and other superior qualities that are often manifested in hybrid organisms, especially plants and animals. Compare inbreeding depression.

What's important to remember with the actual definition itself is that 'hybrid' means the cross of two breeds and the 'vigor' only means that the a triat possessed by the offspring was more desireable OR just more prominent than that of the parents. More prominent is not always a change for the better. I understand the "hybrid vigor" occurance that you are referring to. I understand the possible 'best of both worlds' outcome you are referring to and in the ideal world, that would ALWAYS be the case.

Originally Posted by Cha Cha

Not necessarily so. I have Silkies and they are actually a very good point for this discussion. Silkies were in fact bred from Yorkies and Australian Terriers. Those two breeds alone! Up until the first quarter of this century it was acceptable to mate back they hybred offspring (first generation) to either another Yorkie or Australian Terrier, or another hybred offspring from another litter. Today, we have the Standard Silky Terrier from this. The Silky Terrier today, does not have the genetic problems we are seeing so often in the Yorkie Terriers. Not the true Silkies anyways. One reason I love the breed so. Now, if we continue to mate Silkies back to Yorkies and falsify papers and sell them as something else, then ABSOLUTELY they will begin to show those genetic problems too!

Bingo! Completely agree with you and I think this point was brought up already in this thread. All breeds started somewhere. They were cross bred with a point, there was lots of combined, long term research and compaisons of the resulting offspring and eventually there became a standard for the breed.
That is not being done with today's 'designer breeds,' which is what many take issue with. There is no collective effort to create a standard, to conduct research to seek out an eliminate or promote traits for future generations. It's all about just creating something cute in the present because people are willing to buy them.

(BTW, I am right there with you regarding T-Bone steaks!)

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

What's important to remember with the actual definition itself is that 'hybrid' means the cross of two breeds and the 'vigor' only means that the a triat possessed by the offspring was more desireable OR just more prominent than that of the parents. More prominent is not always a change for the better. I understand the "hybrid vigor" occurance that you are referring to. I understand the possible 'best of both worlds' outcome you are referring to and in the ideal world, that would ALWAYS be the case.


Bingo! Completely agree with you and I think this point was brought up already in this thread. All breeds started somewhere. They were cross bred with a point, there was lots of combined, long term research and compaisons of the resulting offspring and eventually there became a standard for the breed.
That is not being done with today's 'designer breeds,' which is what many take issue with. There is no collective effort to create a standard, to conduct research to seek out an eliminate or promote traits for future generations. It's all about just creating something cute in the present because people are willing to buy them.

(BTW, I am right there with you regarding T-Bone steaks!)

So, you can see then, how they took two breeds, the Yorkie and the Aus. Terrier, to capture the best of both without passing on the genetic faults from either purebred parent.

Ok, so back to the designer dogs. The first generation is the hybred puppy. The yorkiepoo, or chorkie, or whatever cute name they get. People automatically think that by mating that puppy (they hybred designer) back to either another hybred of who knows what or back to another purebred parent type, that they will get a puppy that looks like thier hybred puppy. Hello! That is when all he!! breaks loose. That second generation litter is more likely to favor the genes from one of the original parent dogs. People don't understand what went wrong, then you have all these puppies that don't really fit in either catagory and end up in shelters. It is very sad all in an effort to make a quick buck.

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

What's important to remember with the actual definition itself is that 'hybrid' means the cross of two breeds and the 'vigor' only means that the a triat possessed by the offspring was more desireable OR just more prominent than that of the parents. More prominent is not always a change for the better. I understand the "hybrid vigor" occurance that you are referring to. I understand the possible 'best of both worlds' outcome you are referring to and in the ideal world, that would ALWAYS be the case.


Bingo! Completely agree with you and I think this point was brought up already in this thread. All breeds started somewhere. They were cross bred with a point, there was lots of combined, long term research and compaisons of the resulting offspring and eventually there became a standard for the breed.
That is not being done with today's 'designer breeds,' which is what many take issue with. There is no collective effort to create a standard, to conduct research to seek out an eliminate or promote traits for future generations. It's all about just creating something cute in the present because people are willing to buy them.

(BTW, I am right there with you regarding T-Bone steaks!)

I don't know how to make it color so I bolded it. In an ideal world it is always true. The thing is, if you didn't get the results you wanted in the first mating, you obviously would not duplicate the breeding. When man is involved it is always an experiment. In true mother nature, it is survival of the fittest and only the best is passed on. Hello, dog world do you hear this? This is where responsibility comes in. Also, in an attempt to be fair in an unfair world, less superior animals would and should be culled (definitely NOT re-bred). Unfortunately, we are not seeing this today which only compounds the problems.

[Cerise]

Originally Posted by cj125

Because people have decided that they love their little furry baby and "don't care" what it looks like - they just want to "have one" just like their beloved pet - or they can "just breed it once" and "get their money back" - we now have a breed that you never know what your dog will look like. If that's what you want - great! - but there are a zillion dogs in the paper, humane society and rescues that fit that description. If people really don't care about what their dog looks like - why aren't they getting dogs from these places?

Exactly! The other thing that drives me nuts is when people suggest that to save money and get a mutt instead of a purebred dog. I don't want a mutt. I want a healthy purebred puppy, from a reputable breeder, of the breed that matches me...period!

[BamaFan121s]

Agreed cha cha...both points.

[elliebear]

Originally Posted by chachi

I dont think they should be bred. Theres plenty of mixed breeds at shelters that need homes and If people werent buying designer dogs they would go to a shelter for their mixed breed dog.

I didn't buy her as a designer dog i bought her as a cross breed of my two favorite breeds and i wanted the best i could get and that's exactly what i got !
Her parents are beautiful pedigree dogs and are owned by the same lady as family pets, not just some object that you use for a few years then give away. she did very well with her pups and Lola is very gentle and well behaved.
however you are entitled to your opinion but there was no need to quote me into it !

[elliebear]

And I won't be breeding any of my pets !