Stress piddler

[blancla]

Originally Posted by kerrylatrece

I may not breed Birdie. But I will not be bullied. My movtive to have puppies is not to make money. I never said anything about making money on them. I wanted pups for the same reason people want children. For the lineage. That is why my sisters wanted one of Petey's pups. They want a little bit of him. I know that breeding pure breds is not a walk in the park. But some of you take it a little too seriously. It is a natural function. Dogs will procreate without human intervention given the chance. Some die. It is natural selection. The comforting thing for me is that dogs are pure spirit. They have no sin. So if they do die, sad as it may be, they are protected by their creator.

The statement in bold is the one that I am having the most difficulty understanding. If you can prevent the loss of a life, why wouldn't you. You state that you're not a breeder, but if you breed this dog with the expectation of a litter, then you are in fact a breeder.

Have you considered the costs, not just finanically, of what it takes to raise a litter? Have you thought about if the mother dies, what and who will tend to the puppies? Have you thought about having one of the puppies die in your hands while you are trying desperately to get it to breathe? Have you thought about the time that it takes to clean the whelping box everyday? Have you thought about the puppies peeing and pooing all in the house because they are not trained?

I seriously think that you need to take a step back and think long and hard before you start a breeding program just so your family can have a piece of Petey. Why don't you take a picture of him and frame it and give it out as a Christmas present???

[tjdmom]

I'm not sure you will ever be able to correct this behavior and I'm afraid I have no advice to offer but perhaps this is not the kind of behavior you want to pass on to the puppies? I know your family members all would like free puppies but if those puppies have the same disposition and propensity to be "stress piddlers" will all those family members still be happy with the puppies? That would be a primary concern of mine. You really want the puppies to find good and loving forever homes don't you? I can't imagine any one raising puppies not wishing for that. It sounds like she is not a good breeding prospect and maybe you should take the poster up on her offer to rehome and go back to the drawing board. I know it's discouraging but I have researched this and puppies do seem to take on much of their parents personalities. maybe not always but is that a chance you want to take?

[Princessangela3]

Originally Posted by kerrylatrece

Thank you for a reasonable an un-hysterical response.
She only peed in my bed the first night. See I am not a cruel person. I did not put her in a crate in a strage home her first night. When I took her to the vet the next day, I informed her that Birdie had wet where she lay and asked if she could have a UTI or incontinence from having the first litter. She didn't feel that she did. She had no abdominal tenderness and no fever.

Birdie would not respond to Petey for several days. He had his nose up her butt continuously. I went out and bought a baby play pen to separate them, but about the time I got it home the problem had rectified itself. She came in from outside one day and pursued him for once and they got along famously ever after. At first I thought I had made a big mistake because my primary purpose for getting her, contrary to others assumptions, was as a playmate for Petey.

Petey is obviously blue. He has a strong blue gene. My vet feels that he is very healthy and that I shouldn't worry about him having blue born syndrome.

I know that he is not breed standard. I had read on here that some breeders will breed a blue dog into their line to strengthen the blue. Sometimes the line fails to turn blue in adulthood. I noticed that Birdie had not turned. She is over a pound heavier than Petey, and had no problems with her first litter.

I would love to keep Birdie. If she could stop some of the submissive behaviors she would fit in here a lot better. She loves me. But she is so frantic in her approach. She is quite different than Petey and any dog I have raised. She has some bad habits. I do try to work with her. She is a poo eater. She found where the outside cats go. I took her to the vet because she kept throwing up. I finally figured it out. But I don't know what to do about it. We live in the country and I am not up to training ferral cats. I had to quit letting her sleep with me because she was throwing up poo on my bed when I was asleep.

I am not the martyr that some of these dog lovers are. But I don't think I should be vilified because I am not crazy about this dog. Someone wants to call the authorities on me because I am abusive??? What abuse are they referring to. That is really close to liable.

I get in the protective/rescue mode too. My son begged me not to buy Petey because he was funny looking. But he needed me. I am a good mom. He was not in a good enviroment. Everyone thought he was ugly not special with his blue eyes and thin coat. But I love his thin coat. It is so easy to take care of and he looks so rock & roll.

I may not breed Birdie. But I will not be bullied. My movtive to have puppies is not to make money. I never said anything about making money on them. I wanted pups for the same reason people want children. For the lineage. That is why my sisters wanted one of Petey's pups. They want a little bit of him. I know that breeding pure breds is not a walk in the park. But some of you take it a little too seriously. It is a natural function. Dogs will procreate without human intervention given the chance. Some die. It is natural selection. The comforting thing for me is that dogs are pure spirit. They have no sin. So if they do die, sad as it may be, they are protected by their creator.

I did not come here to inflame dog lovers. Far from it. I came here to get help with behavioral problems so that maybe I wont have to find Birdie another home. I would prefer she live harmoniously with us weather or not she bears Petey pups or not. I should probalby not have mentioned that I may have to find her another home. I think I said that to show my frustration with the behavior.

I can wipe up pee till doomsday. But it angers my husband and son and they gripe at me about it. I have had to go out of town quite a bit lately. My mother has Alzheimer's and has had a crisis period. I had to have my neighbor come take care of Birdie while I was gone. I couldn't take her into a different enviroment around people she didn't know and would be stressed. I hate to keep imposing on my neighbors. But I don't want to have her boarding for the same reasons. There is more than one issue here and it not all selfish and selfserving.

Thanks for the tips on how to approach her. I am gentle with her and am sometimes surprised that she piddled when I told her 'let's go outside' and she cowers and rolls over. I am not mean to her. She is an innocent dog and I want to take care of her.

This post sounds a bit better and explains a bit more of where you are coming from..I hate being nit picked by my bf or kid too it makes me cranky also.
Please take what you can get fro this.....When I first came here I had the same ideas as you do about breeding. I figure the dogs will do all the work and everything is golden.....I am TOTALLY bonded with My Bella Mia Momma and so is my family. She is a great mommy but she was totally stress free and lived a very pampered pregnancy by all in our house. Honestly my Bella Mia had a text book pregnancy, text book whelp and text book puppies minus one rather extremely LARGE puppy : ) However it wasnt golden and it isnt as easy as I thought it would be. It is more expensive than you can imagine if you DO IT CORRECTLY no short cuts..testing before mating, ultrasounds, xrays, new foods, whelping supplies, then after puppies are born the time away from work, the tail dock/dewclaws, vet check ups, the shots, the dewormers, the shots, the dewormers and one more time the shots and the dewormers. Emergency vet costs as we had to take one puppy into the emergency vet. Another emergency vet cost as Bella Mia had mastitis. Today I almost rushed another puppy to the emergency vet for choking on something I couldnt get to but I finally was able to....Our time is not our time anymore....we cant go anywhere for long, and all this because we want to do this right!! I look at these puppies and they are MY LOVE BUGS I will be completely crushed when they go home as I have bonded with every single one of them.. I would do anything for them but I will not be breeding again anytime soon as I have learned my lesson. It really isnt as easy, as cheap, as fun etc as I thought it would be. There is way more poop and pee then you can imagine and there are two of us cleaning the puppy palace 3 times each a day. All those people that want one of your puppies are they all willing to help out financially? It seems people always say oh yeah I will help and then when you show them the cost it is all about how they are having a hard time financially and now is not a good time for a puppy all of the sudden. Just things for you to think about. I had family and friends all lined up for the puppies but one backed out last minute and I chose to refuse to sell one friend a puppy because the family bought a pit bull puppy. Just give it some thought...breeding sounds ALOT more fun and exciting then it really is.....and if you look at all the rescues needing homes....... Good Luck!

[TammyJM]

Originally Posted by kerrylatrece

I bought a 2yr. old female from a breeder. She was moving into town and getting out of the business. The dog has had one litter previously. This dog is VERY submissive. My main problem is that she is a stress piddler. If she is scared or surprised she piddles. Otherwise she is well housebroken.
Any tips for breaking this behavior?
Once a dog has submissive behavior can it be changed?

I have not bonded well with this dog. She is pretty and sweet but she just does not have the personality I like in a dog. Once I have bred her and weaned my pups I will probably sell her.

Have you taken her to a vet to see if this is a physical problem? I know that you asked for advice and I am truly trying to come up with the right words, but honestly...my sadness is clouding my thoughts. I keep trying to type but I sit here with my mouth open and shaking my head....with tears in my eyes. Please consider rehoming now...before you breed her. She deserves a happy life with someone that can bond with her. She has been passed from one breeder to another. I just cannot even begin to know what her precious heart is feeling and how confused she must feel! If she's as submissive as you say, do you know if the previous owners were loving to her...did they show her kindness, unconditional love....heck, has she EVER had anyone care for her in this way??

*sigh*.......

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by kerrylatrece

Petey is obviously blue. He has a strong blue gene. My vet feels that he is very healthy and that I shouldn't worry about him having blue born syndrome.

I know that he is not breed standard. I had read on here that some breeders will breed a blue dog into their line to strengthen the blue. Sometimes the line fails to turn blue in adulthood. I noticed that Birdie had not turned. She is over a pound heavier than Petey, and had no problems with her first litter.

i'm not sure if you totally understand what "blue born" means. Its not just about the color of the coat. "Blue" yorkies have coat and skin problems. Most die within the first few days of life. Some live to adulthood but they start to loose their hair and their skin becomes leather-like and extremely painful. So painful that they need to be put to sleep because there is nothing else that can be done. A few can live normal lives but they are the exception.

Here is a thread on YT http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...e-puppies.html that talks about blue borns. Even if your pup is healthy and fine he is not a dog you want to breed. he can pass on the harmful blue type gene and his puppies may suffer and die.

please reconsider. Have your boy neutered and the female too. Work with her and she will come around. I'm sure the urination problems will stop if you seriously work with her. have a trainer come to the house or speak with an animal behaviorist.

Also you say that you go away a lot and leave your husband and son to care for the dogs. Are they going to know what to do if something happens to pregnant Birdie while you are gone? What if she whelps when you aren't there? Will they be able to help her? What about taking care of the puppies when she has them? Normal healthy puppies are hard enough to care for but imagine if they have health problems. that is a lot to ask of your husband and son, especially since they are already not happy with her peeing problems.

[jackson25]

I think when you came on this forum looking for advice on a behavioral problem, you should have asked your question and left it at that! The comments you made after your asking for advice is what got ALL of the members upset! I, like most members, read a thread of someone asking for advice & then saying "well it is ok, I am just going to breed her to get what I want out of her for my family members, then pass her on to someone else". That is what upset me & alot of the members. We all love our yorkies & want the best for them, so you can appreciate why this tugged at our heart strings along with infuriating some! I hope what ever decision you make for this little girl, is one that is in the best interest of HER!

[maxmom]

This poor girl, has been through a lot in her short 2 years,no wonder she is submissive, used as a puppy machine $,and sold to a new owner, is reason enough for her to pee when scared or surprised.Good thing you were able to rescue her from unscrupulous hands and give her a good loving home .If the possibility of health problems is not an issue,she could be fixed and I'm sure with time, love and patience she will come around and you two will be able to bond

[sugarmamma]

Originally Posted by kerrylatrece

It has occurred to me that this submissive behavior might be inherited. I have considered not breeding her.
.

My sister is very shy and submissive....AND SHE'S PREGNANT I better warn her not to reproduce

[blancla]

Originally Posted by sugarmamma

My sister is very shy and submissive....AND SHE'S PREGNANT I better warn her not to reproduce

You are too funny....

[Sugar's Mom]

petey should not be bred. he is blue born and that is a very serious genetic fault. you are fortunate he has lived this long and is healthy. obviously your vet is inexperienced in this. Seek out another vet and be grateful petey seems healthy. You would do well to read the link to the blue born dogs. If that breeder sold you Petey as a rare yorkie at an inflated price, she ripped you off plain andd simple. Please listen to what people are trying to tell you even if you do get upset. it has been good advice and breeding either of this dogs is a bad mistake.

[jeanm1963]

Originally Posted by manolos mom

I will come and get her tomorrow if you dont want her. I'm serious...

I read this and it nearly brought tears to my eyes...
on another note, my friend just took in a dog that was surrendered for peeing alot.. Did you take her to the vet , as it turns out this poor little dog was not misbehaving, she had had a UTI and even the breeder didnt know!

[livingdustmops]

Your poor little girl has a lot of issues because of the place she came from. I don't know if she will ever overcome many of her issues because it will take someone very dedicated to her to change her around. She has a little soul that has been mentally abused and has been used to make $$$$ for a breeder who could care less about her. Poo eating in dogs is a natural thing that can be changed but again it takes a lot of work and it sounds like you have a very busy life already. I also want to say please don't breed your little guy as he does have some genetic issues but also because we are putting to sleep over 4 million pets a year. You can help to end this tragic story by not producing more puppies that will have genetic problems and will be out of the standard. Just like your son there is only one of him so please honor your little guy and just love him for him.

Submissive Urination

The Dog Can't Help It

We've already discussed at length how improper socialization can encourage dominance and aggression. Improper socialization can also have the opposite effect, resulting in a fearful, insecure dog who shows his submission to the world by urinating at the first hint of stress. Stress for this dog could be triggered by an change in his environment, no matter how minor. His owner returning from a day's work, kids running in the next room, or a direct stare from an alpha dog -- the results are the same: a puddle at his or her feet. In the wild, this is how one 'waves the white flag'.

This most instinctive behavior is often reinforced by owners who do not understand that their dog is paying them the highest compliment in dogdom. All the owner sees is yet another mess to be cleaned up. The owner has scolded and punished, and the problem only gets worse. That is because any acknowledgement of the act convinces the puppy or dog that he has not been subservient enough, and he will lower himself further to the ground and urinate again.

Scolding or Punishing A Dog or Puppy
For Submissive Urination Is Ineffective and Counterproductive

If any punishing is to be done, seek out the breeder, the puppy mill, the pet shop, or the overzealous trainer who failed to give your dog the socialization it needed to develop into a confident individual who trusts that the world is a benevolent place, and punish them. Even just weaning puppies too early and separating them from their mother deprives them of essential development time. Sometimes, however, the mothers, raised in puppy mills, have become lifetime submissive urinators themselves, and have passed this lesson on to her offspring.


This problem is particularly difficult to recondition for the novice owner, as often times, the dog's fear instinct that causes submissive urination has progressed to the point of perpetual shyness and possible fear-biting. Great care must be taken in reconditioning this dog, to keep the proper balance between building up his confidence and setting firm rules for what behaviors will be tolerated.



To Recondition a Submissive Dog You Must Detach From Him
Many people find this suggestion impossible to follow, but it is essential to eliminate all emotional reactions to the submissive dog during the reconditioning phase, which could last for anywhere from a month to a year or more, depending on how ingrained the behavior is. During that time, the owner must take care of all of his dog's physical needs as if he (the owner) was a Vulcan. That means, the owner applies logic and reason in his care for the animal, but no overt emotion is allowed.


This may be difficult in families with small children but the dog must be shielded during this reconditioning time. The harsh fact of the matter is, if you will not, or can not keep young children in check around the dog, the dog will likely not recover from this disability. And yes, this is a disability -- a psychological disease, so to speak. Perhaps if you think of it in that manner it will help your resolve to do what needs to be done for the dog.


A dog with this temperament should be pulled from any breeding program.



Steps To Take To Recondition a Submissive Dog
1. Avoid making direct eye contact. Direct eye contact is a challenge. Use your peripheral vision to watch your dog. In extreme cases, I have had owners actually back up to the dog (the back is less threatening) to snap on the leash.


2. Physically handle your dog as little as possible.

The feel of his beloved master's hands on him is usually too much for most puppies. It invariable triggers urination in the submissive puppy or dog. When contact is unavoidable, such as for walking, grooming, etc. keep your movements slow and deliberate. Avoid eye contact. When absolutely necessary to speak to your dog, do so in a modulated tone. Think: neutral.


3. Ignore Your Dog For The First Twenty Minutes After Your Homecoming

Being reunited with the owner or family is another big trigger for submissive urination. By ignoring the dog entirely for 20 minutes, he will have time to settle down and adjust to your presence.


4. Build Up Your Dog's Confidence

After the first few days of implementing this program, you can begin to engage your dog in low-key play. Tug of War is excellent, provided you let the dog win, and you keep it low-key by obeying the non-emotion, no eye-contact, no unnecessary speaking to your dog while you are playing. Again, you need to be aware of what you are doing so that you don't allow the dog to rebound into aggression.


5. Continue Your Obedience Program

But put yourself in neutral. Understate all praise and try to avoid having to correct. href="http://www.teleport.com/~helix/Keeper/"> clicker training would be particularly effective with a submissive dog.

6. Ignore All Incidents of Submissive Urination Remove the dog to another room while you clean up, and clean up the spots with a chemical made for removing the odor. Don't forget to follow the regular housebreaking routine.

7. Be Patient! If you are working with a very young puppy there is a good chance you can rehabilitate it, and move back into a more normal relationship. The older the dog is, however, the longer it will take to recondition him. And the sad fact is that some dogs, particularly those born of a puppy mills, and raised in the pet shop, will never overcome this obvious statement of unstable temperament.

[Patti]

I do not want to pass judgement on anyone but in reading everything it seems if the OP is still willing, then it would be best for everyone if Manolo's mom purchase her and give her a fresh start to see if she can be turned around.

[blancla]

Originally Posted by Patti

I do not want to pass judgement on anyone but in reading everything it seems if the OP is still willing, then it would be best for everyone if Manolo's mom purchase her and give her a fresh start to see if she can be turned around.

I totally agree, and hope that today Manolo's Mom will get word that she can come and pick her up. I'm saying a lot of prayers for this little girl.

[Princessangela3]

Originally Posted by kalina82

i'm not sure if you totally understand what "blue born" means. Its not just about the color of the coat. "Blue" yorkies have coat and skin problems. Most die within the first few days of life. Some live to adulthood but they start to loose their hair and their skin becomes leather-like and extremely painful. So painful that they need to be put to sleep because there is nothing else that can be done. A few can live normal lives but they are the exception.

Here is a thread on YT http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...e-puppies.html that talks about blue borns. Even if your pup is healthy and fine he is not a dog you want to breed. he can pass on the harmful blue type gene and his puppies may suffer and die.

please reconsider. Have your boy neutered and the female too. Work with her and she will come around. I'm sure the urination problems will stop if you seriously work with her. have a trainer come to the house or speak with an animal behaviorist.

Also you say that you go away a lot and leave your husband and son to care for the dogs. Are they going to know what to do if something happens to pregnant Birdie while you are gone? What if she whelps when you aren't there? Will they be able to help her? What about taking care of the puppies when she has them? Normal healthy puppies are hard enough to care for but imagine if they have health problems. that is a lot to ask of your husband and son, especially since they are already not happy with her peeing problems.

Thanks for posting the old thread....I spent all morning reading it and learning about the blue puppies. I have never heard of blue pups before. My learning experience here on YT has been amazing. There is such a wealth of information from some very informative folks here. I appreciate what you all do to educate those of us who do not know.