Color discrimination - what's the dilly-o?

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

Yes there is proof Biewers are not pure yorkies. The Biewer Club members submitted DNA samples from their dogs to a geneticist; the report came back there is very little yorkie in these dogs.
That was on the Biewer Terrier CLub of AMerica website for a while, disappeared last time I checked.

Actually that one club submitted samples to the MARS company for testing. The test is only 85% accurate on the first generation and decreases greatly from there. The testing only goes back 3 generations...and the genetic marker differences are very subtle beyond 1st generation in all breeds. The company has genetic markers for 134 AKC recognized breeds. I have an email from a MARS representive with states...the testing is not advanced enough to determine accurately the genetic make up.

[scrapindee]

The MARS test was able to separate Biewers from Yorkies. There is a difference.

Establishing a separate breed takes patience, hard work, testing, cooperation, standards, and even mistakes. The Biewer is a work-in-progress. It differs from the tri-color yorkie, because of the color placement defined in the standard.

[Breny]

Originally Posted by scrapindee

My experience with the Biewers is they are laid back, gentle, and wonderful pups. They are very different imho from their 1st cousins the Yorkies.

I def agree!!!!!

[Lorraine]

The argument about Biewers, particolour, golds, chocolates, blueborn has gone around so many times.
Personally if the Biewer Terrier breeders ( not Yorkie) want to go through all the hoops and many years to have them truely recognized by valid registries and kennel clubs no one will object.
As for promoting wrong colour Yorkies, I am sure it is noted that reputable long time show breeders do not promote, sell nor breed them. True fanciers of any purebred breed will not do anything to compromise the integrity of their chosen breed.
I have friends that have been in Yorkies 30+ years odd they have never had a tri colour yorkie or a gold born one for that matter.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

YTCA claims that, however....AKC dna'd parti yorkies to determine parentage and they were indeed yorkshire terriers. This is the reason parti's are allowed to be registered AKC.

The DNA tests by AKC can only tell you that the parents are, in fact, the parents of that litter. It cant tell you the damage that has been done in the past, before DNa and kennel inspections, by the introduction of other breeds to create the parti gene in Yokries. This is very easy to do. Before there were inspections and Dna testing, it was easy to register any mix as an AKC dog. This was done all the time with bybrs and mills and people out for the $$$. AKC has no choice but to register these odd ball colors.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

The argument about Biewers, particolour, golds, chocolates, blueborn has gone around so many times.
Personally if the Biewer Terrier breeders ( not Yorkie) want to go through all the hoops and many years to have them truely recognized by valid registries and kennel clubs no one will object.
As for promoting wrong colour Yorkies, I am sure it is noted that reputable long time show breeders do not promote, sell nor breed them. True fanciers of any purebred breed will not do anything to compromise the integrity of their chosen breed.
I have friends that have been in Yorkies 30+ years odd they have never had a tri colour yorkie or a gold born one for that matter.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

The DNA tests by AKC can only tell you that the parents are, in fact, the parents of that litter. It cant tell you the damage that has been done in the past, before DNa and kennel inspections, by the introduction of other breeds to create the parti gene in Yokries. This is very easy to do. Before there were inspections and Dna testing, it was easy to register any mix as an AKC dog. This was done all the time with bybrs and mills and people out for the $$$. AKC has no choice but to register these odd ball colors.

Absolutely correct, that is all those Dna tests do verify that the parents are who the papers say they are - NOW. Not generations back as the technology wasn't there.
Now if the parentage of a pup is in question, DNA samples of sire, dam and progeny can be submitted but all it will tell you is that those are the parents or if there was something amiss, that one or both likely is not the parent(s).
In very recent years, a few have been caught and registrations cancelled as a result, not per se because it was actually a mix although in some cases that could be the case, but cancelled the registration because the parents on the registration for the progeny were found to be unlikely the parents.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

The DNA tests by AKC can only tell you that the parents are, in fact, the parents of that litter. It cant tell you the damage that has been done in the past, before DNa and kennel inspections, by the introduction of other breeds to create the parti gene in Yokries. This is very easy to do. Before there were inspections and Dna testing, it was easy to register any mix as an AKC dog. This was done all the time with bybrs and mills and people out for the $$$. AKC has no choice but to register these odd ball colors.

Thank you for mentioning this. I have brought up this same point time and time again. I think that people hear "AKC does DNA tests" and they get a false sense of security and do not fully understand what that actually means. It does not ensure that you have a pure Yorkie, it only ensures who the parents are.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

Yes there is proof Biewers are not pure yorkies. The Biewer Club members submitted DNA samples from their dogs to a geneticist; the report came back there is very little yorkie in these dogs.
That was on the Biewer Terrier CLub of AMerica website for a while, disappeared last time I checked .

There are a number of different Biewer clubs, and their rules and standards seem to differ from one club to the next. It would be to the Biewers benefit to be determined as not being purebred yorkies. I believe one of requirements with AKC to allow a new breed into the registry, is that the new dog breed must have several different breeds making up the new breed? The mars test showed that the biewers tested, were made up of several breeds ... but the test also states that it is not made to test pure bred breeds (why? does it not correctly show that a pure bred is a purebred?)
The test is still realitivly new so at this point I'm not sure I hold a whole lot of faith in the testing.

Originally Posted by Lorraine

There is no such colour as a gold born yorkie pup. I have seen pictures of alleged pb gold born and they do not look at all like purebreds.
A gold mature yorkie can result from colour running gold where the gold furnishings have run into the blue covering the blue. Buit if you cut down the coat, you can see the blue pattern. It would considered to be pet quality, not something to be used in a breeding program..

Well, I beg to differ with you. I have seen golden born yorkies, out of and by AKC parents ... these pups are clearly born in shades of tan through rich gold, with clear coats and no saddles - they look like yorkies as pups and as adults.

Yorkie Valley

Originally Posted by Lorraine

Chocolate colour yorkies are a result of two recessive genes. There have been certain health issues mostly skin problems but not really something you can 't live with as far as I know. I don't know what kind of longevity for a life spand has been noted in a Chocolate yorkie.

Chocolates are no more prone to health and skin conditions than traditional colored yorkies are ... it's the blue born yorkies who have health and skin problems.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

There are a number of different Biewer clubs, and their rules and standards seem to differ from one club to the next. It would be to the Biewers benefit to be determined as not being purebred yorkies. I believe one of requirements with AKC to allow a new breed into the registry, is that the new dog breed must have several different breeds making up the new breed? The mars test showed that the biewers tested, were made up of several breeds ... but the test also states that it is not made to test pure bred breeds (why? does it not correctly show that a pure bred is a purebred?)
The test is still realitivly new so at this point I'm not sure I hold a whole lot of faith in the testing.



Well, I beg to differ with you. I have seen golden born yorkies, out of and by AKC parents ... these pups are clearly born in shades of tan through rich gold, with clear coats and no saddles - they look like yorkies as pups and as adults.

Yorkie Valley



Chocolates are no more prone to health and skin conditions than traditional colored yorkies are ... it's the blue born yorkies who have health and skin problems.

You can see golden born yorkies out of aKC registered parents as there was no DNA tests in the past that would prove dogs in the pedigrees were the actual sire and dam. Too late now as where the gold likely first turned up are no longer around.
There is no solid gold in yorkies born that colour. If they were clear coats with no saddles then they definitely are not a purebred.
Off colours caused by recessive genes such as the chocolate is pretty much always going to be health issue.

[fall0317]

Originally Posted by Bhikku

I've read on the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America's website that they do not support the breeding of "gold" yorkies or "Biewer Yorkshire terriers" (piebalds)...and the AKC considers any colors but blue/black/gold/tan combinations to be a disqualification...

Does anyone know why they're so adamant against widening the standard for the Yorkshire terrier? What's wrong with having more than one standard color? Is there a historical reason behind the blue and tan coat, other than "that's the way it's always been"...?

I'm just curious. I'm considering a Biewer Yorkshire terrier in the future at some point. I think they're gorgeous little dogs.

sickening. the "perfect yorkie" is simply a pigment of their imagination. everyone thinks their yorkie is perfect regardless of color... who cares?

[kpstoybox]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

Off colours caused by recessive genes such as the chocolate is pretty much always going to be health issue.

Could you please elaborate on what health problems are known to be a direct result of a yorkie puppy being born chocolate or parti colored?
As a past owner/breeder of the Chocolate and tan and parti variety of American Cocker Spaniels...I find this statement very interesting. As neither of these recessive genes in the Cocker Spaniel caused any color related health problems that I can recall.
Do these recessive genes affect the yorkie differently because of the dilution gene that turns the yorkie from black to blue?

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by kpstoybox

Could you please elaborate on what health problems are known to be a direct result of a yorkie puppy being born chocolate or parti colored?
As a past owner/breeder of the Chocolate and tan and parti variety of American Cocker Spaniels...I find this statement very interesting. As neither of these recessive genes in the Cocker Spaniel caused any color related health problems that I can recall.
Do these recessive genes affect the yorkie differently because of the dilution gene that turns the yorkie from black to blue?

Yes, I would also like to know the health problems that parti and chocolate yorkies have that Lorraine is speaking of? If she's referring to the information posted on the YTCA's website about the health problems associated with off colors, than those problems listed are the problems of blue born yorkies not the other off colors (even though the website is vague and is left to be interrupted that all off colors are prone to these problems - which is untrue)

[BamaFan121s]

In order to declare with certainty that the off colored dogs--be they Yorkies or any other breed--are not prone to health issues not found in the standard colored dog, wouldn't there have to be alot of long term, carefully documented research and observation on them for several generations? (Blue borns aside.) And with numberous lines? Seems to me that at this point, that claim cannot be indisputably determined, one way or the other....

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

In order to declare with certainty that the off colored dogs--be they Yorkies or any other breed--are not prone to health issues not found in the standard colored dog, wouldn't there have to be alot of long term, carefully documented research and observation on them for several generations? (Blue borns aside.) And with numberous lines? Seems to me that at this point, that claim cannot be indisputably determined, one way or the other....

Actually there are a number of breeds with deafness considered related to merle and pie bald genes. Yorkies are not listed within this group...but it can affect any dog with white coloring. I have read great dane breeders are adament about not including parti colored dogs in any breeding program.

Genetics of Deafness in Dogs\


Btw, I learned this information by searching for how many other breeds produce parti colored puppies.