Cesar Millan's methods

[daisy mae06]

Every dog is not going to Train the same, that is why there are so many trainers that use all kinds of training. The english lady on it's me or the dog Rubs me Wrong She thinks dog sweaters and clothes are demeaning to the animal.
But I do think some of her training is great.
No Ceaser I have never had a problem with the reason it states not to try this at home is just a desclamer and he wouldn't want you to hurt you or the pup if you did it Wrong.

[Brooklynn]

I've used his techniques on my herd of yorkies and they work. I would have Ceaser in my home any day! I watch his show all the time and not once have I seen any harm he's done to any of his dogs. They don't look fearful of him. And the reason the show has don't try this alone is if you have an aggressive dog you'd want a professional helping in that area. So hence the warning. Just like when you watch regular night time TV this show may not be suitable for small children...<shaking head>
I'd like to see all the different dogs he has in someone else's home LOL...bet they wouldn't be behaving like his do LOL. But seriously to each their own. Just like what I do with my human child not everyone else would do with theirs. We all have different ways of discipling our own kids but please do take training with an open mind.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Erin]

The problem is that what Cesar says and what he does are two different things. Anyone with any training experience should be able to see that. He will say "The dog is in the calm state" but really that dog is panting and showing signs of stress and fear.

Some really good books are The Other End of the Leash, Positive Perspectives, The Culture Clash, The Dog Whisperer (Paul Owens, not Cesar)... I have probably 20 on my bookshelf that are WAY better than Cesar. He is sensationalized television.

[Brooklynn]

Again to each his own...same as raising children not one will raise them the same way...some may think it's totally wrong and visa versa...same goes with dog training...what works for you many not work for me. I like Ceaser and what he does and that is my thoughts

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[daisy mae06]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Again to each his own...same as raising children not one will raise them the same way...some may think it's totally wrong and visa versa...same goes with dog training...what works for you many not work for me. I like Ceaser and what he does and that is my thoughts

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[zoeybear]

There is another thread somewhere on YT about him. It has a link to a video of him kicking a dog during training. Not hard but a kick none the less.

[daisy mae06]

Originally Posted by zoeybear

There is another thread somewhere on YT about him. It has a link to a video of him kicking a dog during training. Not hard but a kick none the less.

I would love to see that??? I looked do you know what thread?

[Gazou]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Again to each his own...same as raising children not one will raise them the same way...some may think it's totally wrong and visa versa...same goes with dog training...what works for you many not work for me. I like Ceaser and what he does and that is my thoughts

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[lara2913]

Out of interest how many programs where trainers help out badly behaved or aggressive dogs do you have in the US?

Only alot of peoples reasoning for liking him seems to be that his methods work or that he turns around dogs that would of had to be euthanized otherwise. Perhaps its because you haven't actually seen other trainers doing the same thing but with different, more gentle methods?

We have several different ones here.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by lara2913

Out of interest how many programs where trainers help out badly behaved or aggressive dogs do you have in the US?

Only alot of peoples reasoning for liking him seems to be that his methods work or that he turns around dogs that would of had to be euthanized otherwise. Perhaps its because you haven't actually seen other trainers doing the same thing but with different, more gentle methods?

We have several different ones here.

Unfortunately not many. Tamar Gellar is occasionally on Oprah and that is about it. One of the best trainers here, Pat Miller, who has written several books on positive reinforcement, mentions often on her Yahoo! Group Peaceable Paws that positive reinforcement training isn't sensational and it isn't always fast, so it doesn't always make for great TV. I keep trying to convince my local trainer to do a local TV program, because she is so amazing to watch in action. I wonder if those who love CM have ever seen positive reinforcement trainers in action? Maybe that is why I dislike him so much, because I have seen the other side up close.

[Jeri Cunningham]

I have had many dogs and have experienced many types of training. I have seen up close what works for some dogs doesn't work for others. On my crockpot yorkie Teddy he would bark non stop. He went to two different training classes and still would bark non stop. Then the citronella collar - no help he loved it!. The shock collar - because he is over 13 lbs we use it. BUT if the door bell rings shocked or not he would bark and howl!

The vet had said we could remove his vocal cords as a last resort.

He would bark in his sleep until the bark collar!

Tried Cesars method with my husband ringing the door. IT WORKED!!!!! He no longer reacts if the door bell rings and with a dead battery he think the shock collar still works. If the door bell rings he looks at me now like OK this is your responsibility - take care of it!!!!

Thanks to Cesars method the door bell isn't an issue anymore.

I never would have removed his vocal cords but moving to the country or building him a sound proof room were thoughts we had

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Erin

Unfortunately not many. Tamar Gellar is occasionally on Oprah and that is about it. One of the best trainers here, Pat Miller, who has written several books on positive reinforcement, mentions often on her Yahoo! Group Peaceable Paws that positive reinforcement training isn't sensational and it isn't always fast, so it doesn't always make for great TV. I keep trying to convince my local trainer to do a local TV program, because she is so amazing to watch in action. I wonder if those who love CM have ever seen positive reinforcement trainers in action? Maybe that is why I dislike him so much, because I have seen the other side up close.

The methods that Ceaser uses is postive reinforcement in my opinion.
I don't hit my dog, I praise my dog when he's done it correctly what is not postive about praising him after the correction and he does it correctly? Same as children you correct the problem then praise when the child has done what you asked....OYVEY! I use his methods on some of my yorkie's bad habits and I don't see it any other way but positive. If it weren't positive then I don't think my yorkies would follow me every step I take and go to the bathroom with me and jump in my lap if it weren't positive training LOL, wait maybe I need to shhhhssst them so they won't get in my lap when I go to the bathroom LOL
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terries

[Erin]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

The methods that Ceaser uses is postive reinforcement in my opinion.
I don't hit my dog, I praise my dog when he's done it correctly what is not postive about praising him after the correction and he does it correctly? Same as children you correct the problem then praise when the child has done what you asked....OYVEY! I use his methods on some of my yorkie's bad habits and I don't see it any other way but positive. If it weren't positive then I don't think my yorkies would follow me every step I take and go to the bathroom with me and jump in my lap if it weren't positive training LOL, wait maybe I need to shhhhssst them so they won't get in my lap when I go to the bathroom LOL
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terries

Cesar is not positive reinforcement. He may say he is, or he may use some positive reinforcement methods (incorrectly, most likely), but he is not a positive reinforcement trainer. It's not a matter of opinion. Anyone who has read the books or trained with a positive reinforcement trainer would see the difference. He trains VERY differently than a positive reinforcement trainer would.

Maybe you agree with his methods or maybe they work for you and that isn't what I'm arguing, but by definition he is absolutely NOT positive reinforcement.

To answer your question, what is not positive about rewarding them after a correction, is that you don't understand the terminology. It doesn't mean positive in the sense that positive=good or happy. Positive means the trainer ADDS SOMETHING. Negative means something GOES AWAY. Positive reinforcement means you give the dog a reward for a wanted behavior. Negative punishment means you take something away for bad behavior (consequences). "Positive Reinforcement" trainers use rewards (praise, a treat) and consequences (a time out, ignoring) for bad behavior. What Cesar uses is called POSITIVE PUNISHMENT which is a correction or aversive. This is NOT used by positive reinforcement trainers. So when I say by definition he is NOT a positive reinforcement trainer, that is what I mean.

For anyone who took the time to read this whole thing, there is also Negative Reinforcement which means you take something away when the dog does something right. There are trainers out there who apply shock collars continuously until the dog sits, and then they turn off the shock.

Here are some better definitions from www.clickertraining.com

Negative punishment
(P-) Taking away something the animal will work for to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior. For example, a dog jumps on you to get attention. By turning your back or leaving the room you apply P- by removing the attention he wants.

Negative reinforcement
Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. Heeling is traditionally taught through R-. The dog receives a correction? when he walks anywhere except in heel position. Walking in heel position increases because that is the only because the threat of correction is removed by walking there. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed.

Positive punishment
(P+) Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior. For example, jerking on the lead to stop a dog from jumping on someone is P+ used to suppress the behavior of jumping. Other common examples of P+ include yelling, nose taps, spanking, electric shock, and assorted booby traps.

Positive reinforcement
(R+) Adding something the animal will work for to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. For example, giving the dog a treat for sitting in order to increase the probability that the dog will sit again.

I hope this at least clarifies what I'm talking about, even if you don't agree with it.

[MarilynMonroe]

Originally Posted by chachi

I love Caesar. I dont agree with all his methods for yorkies but I love to watch him

ditto,i think hes great, but dont agree with the pulling and pinning down of the dogs,although it seems to work for him