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Old 09-21-2007, 12:40 PM   #28
Erin
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Chicago Suburbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn View Post
The methods that Ceaser uses is postive reinforcement in my opinion.
I don't hit my dog, I praise my dog when he's done it correctly what is not postive about praising him after the correction and he does it correctly? Same as children you correct the problem then praise when the child has done what you asked....OYVEY! I use his methods on some of my yorkie's bad habits and I don't see it any other way but positive. If it weren't positive then I don't think my yorkies would follow me every step I take and go to the bathroom with me and jump in my lap if it weren't positive training LOL, wait maybe I need to shhhhssst them so they won't get in my lap when I go to the bathroom LOL
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terries
Cesar is not positive reinforcement. He may say he is, or he may use some positive reinforcement methods (incorrectly, most likely), but he is not a positive reinforcement trainer. It's not a matter of opinion. Anyone who has read the books or trained with a positive reinforcement trainer would see the difference. He trains VERY differently than a positive reinforcement trainer would.

Maybe you agree with his methods or maybe they work for you and that isn't what I'm arguing, but by definition he is absolutely NOT positive reinforcement.

To answer your question, what is not positive about rewarding them after a correction, is that you don't understand the terminology. It doesn't mean positive in the sense that positive=good or happy. Positive means the trainer ADDS SOMETHING. Negative means something GOES AWAY. Positive reinforcement means you give the dog a reward for a wanted behavior. Negative punishment means you take something away for bad behavior (consequences). "Positive Reinforcement" trainers use rewards (praise, a treat) and consequences (a time out, ignoring) for bad behavior. What Cesar uses is called POSITIVE PUNISHMENT which is a correction or aversive. This is NOT used by positive reinforcement trainers. So when I say by definition he is NOT a positive reinforcement trainer, that is what I mean.

For anyone who took the time to read this whole thing, there is also Negative Reinforcement which means you take something away when the dog does something right. There are trainers out there who apply shock collars continuously until the dog sits, and then they turn off the shock.

Here are some better definitions from www.clickertraining.com

Negative punishment
(P-) Taking away something the animal will work for to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior. For example, a dog jumps on you to get attention. By turning your back or leaving the room you apply P- by removing the attention he wants.

Negative reinforcement
Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. Heeling is traditionally taught through R-. The dog receives a correction? when he walks anywhere except in heel position. Walking in heel position increases because that is the only because the threat of correction is removed by walking there. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed.

Positive punishment
(P+) Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior. For example, jerking on the lead to stop a dog from jumping on someone is P+ used to suppress the behavior of jumping. Other common examples of P+ include yelling, nose taps, spanking, electric shock, and assorted booby traps.

Positive reinforcement
(R+) Adding something the animal will work for to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. For example, giving the dog a treat for sitting in order to increase the probability that the dog will sit again.

I hope this at least clarifies what I'm talking about, even if you don't agree with it.
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