How long can you crate your dog ?

[P-did]

Sighting sources isn't impressive to be quite honest when it comes to things of this nature.

When discussing a controversial issue on the internet, using credible sources is the only real way to justify statements and opinions. Saying something along the lines of “this worked in my experience” means nothing to us on this forum, since we can’t go to your house or visit your clients.

They're all well and good for people to read, but unless you've personally gone through and practised these methods for YEARS on VARIOUS dogs of VARIOUS ages and sexes and circumstances, you can't realistically offer proper advice or recommendations on anything but what you've experienced yourself.

To rely only on your experience without conducting research from credible sources would not be responsible to the profession. We should all learn from personal experience, forums, friends, and most importantly: expert sources. Many of the dog’s you prescribe crate training might develop problems that you never know about. By converting to the gradually expanding “confinement zone” method, we can prevent this in the future.

Honestly, that right there [the fact that you disagree with me about caging dogs for most of their waking lives] tells me your experience level.

People who have been doing this for 40+ years believe long-term crating is detrimental to most dog’s mental health (some can withstand the abuse better than others). So don’t use experience level to support cruel practices.

They may site themselves as being in the practise for X amount of years, but in reality-for example-they're counting more years in than they actually spent on "that" subject.

For all we know, you could be doing the same thing. That’s why we need to use expert sources to back up our advice, especially on the internet where so much faulty advice spreads.

I never said I did/did not read those books, but I am familiar w/ the authors and that's all I've got to say about them!

If that’s the most insightful comment mustered, it’s obvious you never read these great works, written by people with likely many times your experience level.

I will continue to advise what has worked for me and my clients on a consistent basis and for myself...that's really what it's about-CONSISTENT RESULTS and happy owners and well adjusted dogs.

As long as you stop advising people to keep their dogs in a crate for the entire work day, I wish you the best in your dog training career. I hope the business is very successful and lucrative. Perhaps you can reach even more success by finding new cutting edge methods to train a dog besides the 2 by 1 foot cage. Your clients will surely love you even more if you do.

I have nothing against you, but I will challenge any abusive advice that I see on this forum.

You should really think more about the “confinement zone” method I mentioned. It’s much more humane, and it has never failed for anybody I know. Countless experts have successfully used this method on millions of dogs world wide.

Remember: Just because a method achieves a desired result doesn’t mean it will lead to a happy life for the dog nor will it ensure long term success. If I choke a child, she may stop screaming, but is that the right way to go about it? Please, stop and think about it, and convert to the more humane methods I mentioned in this thread.

[yorkieK9trainer]

I've been encouraged for many different reasons to switch over to the Jewish faith. It ain't happening. Just my personal beliefs. But I can agree w/ many of their practises and find the religion interesting. Same here.

"using credible sources is the only real way to justify statements and opinions"

What you fail to realize is WHO justifies just WHAT is credible and what is not??

For example, many of the dogs produced from the Lackland Air Force Base-many of whom are responsible for today's security when it comes to the usage of K-9's-are being produced and "Certified" by them.
The issue w/ this is that the trainers that have produced these dogs are becoming increasingly worse over time. And THEY'RE the ones that should be held to one of the highest standards in the business because of the responsibility that they produce, correct? Well, there isn't ANY standardized testing, nor proper government or structured organization that these dogs are to get certified by. If Lackland says they're good enough, they're good enough. And that is proveable to not be the case-there are many other facilities that while they don't have the financial backing that Lackland does, produce better quality dogs in the field. And they don't make it to the top, often because the financial backing isn't there and the name isn't attached, even though they are more capable in the field.
My point is, that over time these trainers are being watered down at this facility in particular...just one example of many. So while we think that they're improving or they're the guys to go to, that's not the case.
Much like our Yorkies of the past-"They don't make 'em like they used to!"-is all too true. Some feel we're going in the right direction w/ the breed and others think we're not. (smaller size, completely different coat, even a different temperment...) "Back in the day" is when Lackland achieved the name it has today from their trainers of that time. As time goes by, the cycle of trainers they're producing has been greatly watered down by letting trainers in and pass that really shouldn't and it becomes a snowball effect...it's late, am I making sense on this? lol *yawn*
Trainers are the same way, and so are practises.
Just because a trainers practises and results aren't "news worthy" (i.e. you don't see them in a book) doesn't mean that they aren't better or just as good.
So, I'd recommend that you continue reading your books and doing your thing and realize that you cannot foist your "bibles" on myself in particular and while this doesn't make me bad in any way, it simply is what it is.
I don't agree w/ your statements completely, I feel they are unfounded and inexperienced in many ways and while NOT putting your dog in a crate IS a possibility-I do this often myself w/ many of my dogs-I will still continue to use them as tools as needed.
Back to the original point- Crates are a WONDERFUL utensil in the safety and correcting of unwanted behaviours. Further more, they often stop problems before they begin, simply by exposure alone. And if something doesn't come natural to your dog (i.e housebreaking is a new concept to your puppy-why can't he go where and when his body is telling him to go?) you use TRAINING METHODS to teach him the desired behaviour. It can and has been done time and time again-even in the worst cases. You just have to know what you're doing and if you don't...seek a professional in your area. There's no reason (unless your dog has an actual mental disorder), NONE, why you can't crate train your dog if needed or desired and any trainer that tells you otherwise is saying so, because they're not capable and that's fine. You've gotta know when you're over your head and pass that client over to the appropriate people.

[P-did]

What you fail to realize is WHO justifies just WHAT is credible and what is not??

Here is a guide to evaluating the quality and credibility of a source:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handou...alsource3.html

My point is, that over time these trainers are being watered down at this facility in particular...just one example of many.

Maybe it’s simply due to trainers thinking they are above continuing to read articles, books, and studies.

As time goes by, the cycle of trainers they're producing has been greatly watered down by letting trainers in and pass that really shouldn't and it becomes a snowball effect...it's late, am I making sense on this?

I totally agree. I am very weary of most dog trainers these days, as many of the use abusive techniques (choking, leash popping, and long term daily crating). The “watered down” effect could be prevented if all trainers were required to read more about the methods of world’s top behaviorists.

Just because a trainers practises and results aren't "news worthy" (i.e. you don't see them in a book) doesn't mean that they aren't better or just as good.

I’ve never seen dog-training methods discussed on the news. Personally, I prefer material written by people with both degrees and many years of experience in the field. Typically, the authors use credible sources rather than ALL CAPS to support their theories.

So, I'd recommend that you continue reading your books and doing your thing and realize that you cannot foist your "bibles" on myself in particular and while this doesn't make me bad in any way, it simply is what it is.

I have no “bibles for you” (bibles are based on faith; the books I read are based on detailed observations and experiences). The book I suggested (The Social Lives of Dogs) is one of the most beautifully written books I’ve read in my life (that says a lot since I’ve read countless novels and non-fiction pieces). It’s written in a narrative form to make it both informative and exciting. My girlfriend and I both read it in two days because we couldn’t put it down.

I’m shocked: I came through with a huge favor by pointing out this gem, and you repay me with snide remarks? Where I come from, the response to being directed towards an amazing piece of literature is “thank you”, especially if it’s a book that could help improve my craft.

Please don’t be like our President and shun books. Those who think “I know it all” and don’t continue to research will always fall behind those with an open mind for learning.

I find it amazing that you would rather right large paragraphs about unrelated analogies than to provide just one or two quality sources to support your theories. Do you have a degree in your field (you could at least direct me to some of your school books)?

If I ever need a professional trainer, I would hope the trainer does not shun reading and learning. I would want the most cutting-edge and humane methods, and a trainer that doesn’t read up on the latest studies and techniques can not provide that.

you use TRAINING METHODS to teach him the desired behaviour.

Making obvious statements doesn’t justify abusive practices.

Crates are a WONDERFUL utensil in the safety and correcting of unwanted behaviours.

In my original comment, I said that 2 to 3 hours is the maximum time for a dog to be in there without a break. That means I would almost agree with your eight hour per day rule as long as the dog got at least a break part way through.

But when suggesting that eight hour per day, everyday, without breaks, is okay. That’s where the issue lies. That’s where the words “abusive” and “torture” have merit.

I will give you credit for back-tracking to “six hours for small breeds”. But even that, without at least one break, is considered inhuman by the true experts in the field.

There's no reason (unless your dog has an actual mental disorder), NONE, why you can't crate train your dog if needed or desired and any trainer that tells you otherwise is saying so, because they're not capable and that's fine. You've gotta know when you're over your head and pass that client over to the appropriate people.

Again, provide me with a single expert source that says daily eight-hour crating is healthy for a dog, and I will give your theory some consideration. Until then, don’t give out controversial advice until you have research to support it. I don’t trust anybody’s theories if they can’t find a single source to back it up.

[yorkieK9trainer]

ROFL, a degree in my field? That hardly qualifies me to do what I do.
You can go to school to learn to become a dog trainer, learn on three different labs in 8 months and get your certification. No, sorry, I've learned hands on from the age of 8 until now, beginning in Japan and now here in the United States. I don't think I was able to conisder myself a professional until I was 19 or 20.

I have plenty of other things to be worrying about, other than your views and beliefs on what is right and what is wrong. You're the kind of individual that no matter what is said, you still think you're correct. Bickering isn't something I like to entertain.

If ever you find yourself in Grayslake, Illinois or happen to make it out to Glendale, Arizona, please give me a call. I'd LOVE to show you some of my abilities.

This isn't me "running", it's just me knowing when to quit and I'm done entertaining you for now.

In closing-I stand by my original statement that to crate your dog (large breed-8 hours); (small breed-up to 6) is one of the more humane and ethical things you can do. It will not only stop many unwanted behaviours from beginning, but also is handy in ceasing ones that have already begun. Ideally, you wouldn't need to crate your dog. But to think it's inhumae is simply assinine (sp?). If your dog is having issues w/ being crated, but this is something that you require or desire, you can teach your dog to be in his/her crate, it doesn't come natural to all dogs. If a crate isn't a tool that is needed, fabulous and congratulations.
I think all owners should rear their dogs as though they were to be giving them away at some point in the future. That is to say, that you shouldn't tolerate any little mannerisims that your neighbor or a family friend couldn't tolerate as well. What if (god forbid) something happened to you tomorrow. You should know that your little one won't be put in a shelter or worse, because no one wanted your little guy because of some little behaviour that you didn't mind, but others most likely wouldn't tolerate.
In essence, your dog should tolerate and trust that whatever you ask of him/her is okay and they should comply.

Feel free to contact me via e-mail if you'd like. I'll be busy for the next week and most likely won't be able to get onto YT until then.
topsredhead@yahoo.com

And if you'd like to have fun googling, you can look up Alex Rothacker and Swee Pea. He's one of my bosses at a local facility and that's where I learned to call myself a professional and further my career.
Thanks in advance and have a Happy Thanksgiving!

[SONYSW]

Once again thanks for all your input. I think to crate your dog while you are not at home is a good idea since I still cannot trust her. You never know what will happen if you let her run around the house. In addition, she actually well behave in the crate. She goes to the crate by herself and seems like it. I would not crate the dog more than 5 hours. I think that is about the max she can hold.

[yorkieK9trainer]

SONYSW-
Good luck w/ your girl and any good habits you're trying to teach her! I'm certain things will work out for you!




HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!

*yay* I love road trips!

[P-did]

ROFL, a degree in my field? That hardly qualifies me to do what I do... I've learned hands on from the age of 8 until now, beginning in Japan and now here in the United States. I don't think I was able to conisder myself a professional until I was 19 or 20.

Seventy percent of American households have dogs, so I guess over half of our population qualifies to be dog trainers.

I stand by my original statement that to crate your dog (large breed-8 hours); (small breed-up to 6) is one of the more humane and ethical things you can do.

If I put you in a crate for 8 hours during the day and 8 hours at night, that is two-thirds (16 hours per day) of your life in a 2 by 1 foot box. So if the dog lives to be 15 years old, it will have spent 10 of those years in a box.

That is simply wrong, no way around it. Why waste your energy defending it?

In essence, your dog should tolerate and trust that whatever you ask of him/her is okay and they should comply.

So in essence, asking your dog to spend two thirds of its life in a small box is completely reasonable. That's immoral on so many levels; I don't know where to begin.

If ever you find yourself in Grayslake, Illinois or happen to make it out to Glendale, Arizona, please give me a call. I'd LOVE to show you some of my abilities.

I'm better off watching the Dog Whisperer. I've never seen him crate a dog.

We have the most well behaved little Yorkie ever, and we did it simply through lots of exercise and leadership games (heeling, sitting, etc). We never had to consider forcing the animal to spend two-thirds of its life in a box to achieve desired results. When we are at work, the dog can play or relieve itself at any time, as well as watch squirrels out the window or my bird next to his playpen. It is ideal for the dog to have the maximum amount of stimulation possible when you're not there to provide it.

Does our success make us highly skilled trainers? No, we just did our research and fulfilled the little wolf's need to release physical and mental energy. It iss common sense stuff, and people only need professional trainers when they are not providing for the core needs of the dog: walking and providing leadership. Any dog with plenty of exercise and leadership will be well behaved.

[P-did]

The most flawed argument of all:

"put your pet in a box for two-thirds of its life because it will prevent bad behavior before it develops and the dog is safer when not given a chance to be in the environment".

So with that logic, I should keep my child in her room for 16 hours per day. That way nothing bad will ever happen to her. Since she’s in her room, I don’t have to worry about boys, getting hit by a car, or anything.

I guess it's true, but it you have to completely remove an animal from its environment to achieve a result, that's not professional training, that's lack of skill in training the dog to behave well in its environment. A truly skilled trainer helps us teach animals to behave correctly in the environment without using a box to remove the animal completely.

It take a higher level of skill to train dogs without stuffing them in boxes for two-thirds of their lives.

[Erin]

Crate training, as far as housetraining, is supposed to be temporary. So you give your dog lots of little intervals in the cage in between lots of little intervals of attention. The point of crating your dog while you are away is that your dog is supposed to sleep when it's in the crate anyway. When their owners are away most dogs would either sleep or do something destructive. By crating them, you are only giving them the option to sleep. (Loki would choose to sleep anyway, but he is SAFER in the crate.) Loki is crate trained and I use the crate as a wonderful tool to prevent him from getting hurt or getting in trouble when I am not home. He would go crazy in the house all by himself. To him, the crate means NAP TIME. Usually when we get home he does not even want to come out because he is just waking up.

We use the crate differently now than when Loki was a baby. When he was a baby we used it when we were home to aid in housetraining. At that point YES he did sleep in his crate. Until he learned to let us know when he needed to go outside. Where is this 2/3 of their lives coming from? Now that Loki is house trained, he only spends time in the crate when we are away - not at night. We are rarely gone for more than 4 hours a few times a week - otherwise he goes to daycare or we take him with. I never force him to hold it more than 5 hours. If I had to come home at lunch, let him out, and put him back in his crate I think he would be fine as long as he got at least one day a week at doggie daycare, possibly two, and that is what I recommend for people who have less flexible schedules. Loki does NOT sleep in his crate. He is free to sleep wherever he wants. He is able to do this BECAUSE we used crate training to housetrain him. Confining him during his puppyhood now allows him complete freedom when we are home.

Loki goes to his crate ON COMMAND and eagerly looks at me for a treat. Did he always do this? Absolutely not. I trained him to do this. Did he fight it? Of course. When we first got him he figured out if he peed in the crate we would take him out to clean it up. So what did he do? Pee in the crate the second we put him in there. Those were the obstacles we faced. But now he LOVES his crate and in fact is laying in there right now. His crate is his quiet place and he knows he can go there when he wants to be left alone.

P-did. I completely disagree with you. Loki is two and we are *still* working with his trainer. We do it for fun, possibly to compete some day, but mostly to get over Loki's fears. Loki is reactive. It's just his temperament. We did everything "right" but that is just how he is. I'm happy for you that your dogs are wonderful, some dogs just have lovely temperaments and turn out that way. The trainer has been able to guide me so that I know how best to train Loki. Those who do not know of his limitations say he is one of the best trained dogs they know. He listens and he *wants* to learn. We do training EVERY DAY. He knows what the rules are. He knows more words than I can count. It is only because of working with a professional trainer that I have learned the right way to teach Loki things and he has come a LONG way. I would recommend at least two training classes to ANYONE with a puppy.

And how nice for you that your dogs are not chewers, or barkers, or have any problems. Loki is a barker and by keeping him in his crate he is NOT stimulated by things to bark at. When I am home, I am able to re-direct his barking by giving him another command. If I was not here he would simply bark himself sick. Better to avoid that, wouldn't you say?

We also use the crate for time outs. Time outs are not punishment but they do remove the dog from what it wants most, your attention, for a few minutes. He learns that certain behaviors mean that he doesn't get to hang out with you for a while.

I am not sure what books you are reading, but obviously they are not the same books I would choose if you are a fan of the dog whisperer. My trainer DOES have a Masters Degree in her field, and she is a positive reinforcement trainer. We do not use force OR fear like the Dog Whisperer. Check out a cook by Karen Pryor or Jean Donaldson or Ian Dunbar or Pat Miller or Patricia McConnell. I can give you more specific suggestions if you would like. Or go to www.clickersolutions.com

[SONYSW]

Erin: It seems my situation is similar to yours. I use crate training and it seems work well for her during the housebreaking process. I also like the clickersolutions link that you suggested. Do you use a bigger crate for Loki ? or it remains the same crate you used when Loki was a puppy. Thanks.

[P-did]

Where is this 2/3 of their lives coming from?

Earlier in the thread, a fellow poster suggested that crating for 6-8 hour on a daily basis is fine. If that is coupled with 8 hour per night in the crate, that is 16 hours. And 16/24 = 2/3.

You're obviously not doing that, so what I said in the thread does not apply to you.

We are rarely gone for more than 4 hours a few times a week - otherwise he goes to daycare or we take him with.

Erin, what you described seems fine (exactly as I recommended in this thread: crating only for short periods). What you're doing falls well within the lines of what I described in this thread as acceptable crating. My real beef was with people spreading the notion that 6-8 hour per day, without a break, should be practiced on a regular basis.

P-did. I completely disagree with you. Loki is two and we are *still* working with his trainer.

I don't understand what we disagree about. It sounds like you did exactly what I would do: hire a trainer too if any problems arose, as long as the trainer was certified with proper education and well read on the trade.

And how nice for you that your dogs are not chewers, or barkers, or have any problems.

It's not luck. We followed the core values prescribed in the Dog Whisperer: exercise, leadership, and lastly: affection. If affection is given without exercise and leadership, the dog will have problems guaranteed.

I am not sure what books you are reading

I listed a few in the thread.

We do not use force OR fear like the Dog Whisperer. Check out a cook by Karen Pryor or Jean Donaldson or Ian Dunbar or Pat Miller or Patricia McConnell. I can give you more specific suggestions if you would like. Or go to www.clickersolutions.com

I would never use choking or lease popping on my dog. When Ceasar does it (which is rarely, and only for a split second), it's on an extraordinary aggressive dog. I'm not in position to judge his techniques since I've never met a dog like that. I've also seen Ceasar calm aggressive dogs with body language alone, so the "fear tactics" you describe are reserved for the type of dogs neither of us have any experience with.

What I'm a fan of is what the Ceasar preaches for the average non-hyper-aggressive dogs like yours and mine. He never uses fear with those dogs. He trains the owner to provide for the three most important needs: exercise, leadership, and affection (in that order). Just because you don't believe in the fear tactics on aggressive dogs doesn't mean you should ignore Ceasar's core message: a dog without physical and mental challenge will have pent up energy, which is released in the form of barking, aggression, biting, or all of the above.

If Loki was a big time barker, the dog simply wasn't getting enough exercise and leadership. You did the right thing by taking the dog to the trainer, as the trainer showed you how to provide the dog with leadership. So the only thing left for you would be exercise to prevent future barking attacks.

Anyway, everything you said was reasonable. My beef in this thread was against the serious long term crating without breaks.

[Erin]

I disagree with what you said about the average dog owner not seeking out a professional trainer. Training classes with the right trainer (in my opinion a positive reinforcement one) is something I would recommend for ALL dogs.

I also disagree that a dog is a little wolf. They are significantly different in key ways. Studies done on wolves do not apply to dogs. Only studies done on dogs. I understand that you might be trying to say that they are NOT people. But they are no more little wolves than little people.

I do NOT like Cesar Milan, even if I agree that dogs need exercise. He does use fear. He uses flooding which I've seen in multiple episodes Flooding is like putting you in a room full of spiders if you are afraid of spiders and saying "get over it" I also saw him take a dog who's only problem was he liked so jump in the pool when his family was swimming - and this family had a perfectly good FENCE around the pool, so it was not a safety issue - and he made a dog who looked completely thrilled to be in the pool to be completely afraid of it. He was showing major stress signals that Cesar then described as "calm, submissive". But what he was SAYING and what he was DOING were two different things. The average dog owner is just going to take his word for it, and that's scary. And furthermore, I don't care if my dog is dominant or submissive, as long as he listens to me. Submission brings problems on it's own, like submissive urination. Leadership does not mean dominance. We (the trainer and I) as well as a couple training groups I subscribe to discuss this show and difficult dogs on a routine basis. There are always better ways to address these dogs' issues. And the show basically makes it "cool" to abuse your dog because Cesar does it. I saw a lady just the other day leash popping her 15 pound dog because he wasn't walking behind her, like Cesar says he should. Are you telling me there was no other way to control a 20 pound dog? Yeah right. But people watch this show and don't even try to tell me that they don't copy him. Loki walks perfectly by my side, but it took a month or two to teach him that. I think people just want quick fixes and aren't willing to take the time to train their dogs with a humane way when Cesar can supposedly "fix" dogs in a day or two. THAT is why I don't like Cesar.

Finally, Loki's barking is not for lack of exercise. Like I said, he is reactive. Probably what a lot of people on here would just call "feisty" and leave it at that. He doesn't bark to entertain himself. He would rather sleep or chew on his stick. Barking is his reaction to stimuli that scares him, like a dog walking past the house or a dog coming too close to him in class. Exercise IS important but it does NOT cure everything. And the reason that I recommend a professional trainer is that we were able to address issues as they came up, before they became a problem. When Loki chewed something in the house the trainer helped us re-direct him. Now he only chews his stuff. She helped us with housetraining, nipping, pulling on leash, etc. as it came up. Not 6 months later when it was harder to fix.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by SONYSW

Erin: It seems my situation is similar to yours. I use crate training and it seems work well for her during the housebreaking process. I also like the clickersolutions link that you suggested. Do you use a bigger crate for Loki ? or it remains the same crate you used when Loki was a puppy. Thanks.

Loki has a much bigger crate than when he was a puppy. He was 3.5 pounds when we got him. Now he is 11 pounds. We used an 18" crate with a divider. Once he was crate trained we switched him to a crate 2 sizes bigger, I think a 30" or something like that. He has had that crate since. We got the bigger crate before he was fully housetrained but after he stopped having accidents in the crate. There is room for him to fully stretch out, although he tends to curl up in the back corner. He has a crate cover and mattress and everything. The crate training has also made it easier to get him to accept his car seat which he loves and it's great when we go to other people's houses.

[SONYSW]

Chelsea is 3.8 lbs and she is 5 months old. She no longer has an accident in her crate and seems housebroken (cross my finger on this). I have the smallest crate and am thinking to get 24" crate so she can relax a bit. Although she never fully uses the space in the current crate. I did not know that there is a car seat for dog. Chelsea sits in my lap when she is in the car. She hates the crate while in the car. Once again thank you for your information.

[P-did]

Finally, Loki's barking is not for lack of exercise. Like I said, he is reactive.

As documented time and time again, about 99% of "reactive" behavior problems stem from a lack of exercise and/or leadership. As the old saying goes, "a tired dog (both mentally and physiclaly) is a well behaved dog". Unless there is a medical problem, the key to preventing reactive behavior is exercise, leadership, and affection (in that order). So when a dog is reactive, the dog could be well-exercised but not be recieving enough leadership and assertive energy from the human.

To get back to the original debate in this thread, a dog spending two-thirds of its life in a crate will cause reactive behavior like observed in Loki. For all we know, the crate may have contributed to Loki being hyper reactive (perhaps he was kept in a crate for long hours by the breeder or previous owner). But either way, dogs cut off from stimuli will end up with reactive behavior.