Cesar Millan "Showdown" with Holly

[Yorkiemom1]

I think I read that CM is quitting "Whisper" series....could it be because of several "questionable actions, encounters" with a couple dogs, lately? This video of the lab we are talking about here, and then I read about a rescued dog that was aggressive, a guest challenged the dog over his food bowl like her had learned on CM's htow, the dog lunged and caught the man square in the face....needed 10 stitches...and the dog was returned to the pound and euthanized.

[yorkietalkjilly]

I read this is the last season of the Cesar Millan show, too. I can remember watching one or two episodes where he did train fearful dogs out of most of their fear through patient redirection and positive reinforcement but those episodes were years back. I hadn't seen an episode in a long while until he did 2 or 3 in the U.K. and then I caught the "Worst Bite" episode. That really did it for me with his show. I hope it was a good lesson to all who do watch to NOT to try that technique, unlike the poor guy who got his face bitten!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I read this is the last season of the Cesar Millan show, too. I can remember watching one or two episodes where he did train fearful dogs out of most of their fear through patient redirection and positive reinforcement but those episodes were years back. I hadn't seen an episode in a long while until he did 2 or 3 in the U.K. and then I caught the "Worst Bite" episode. That really did it for me with his show. I hope it was a good lesson to all who do watch to NOT to try that technique, unlike the poor guy who got his face bitten!

I don't like him at all! There is no variety in his approaches to problem dogs. No dog is one size fits all.

Our trainers work with us to find a solution that works for our particular dog(s) and handler.

Our most challenging dog was Zoey (rip love). She was a fear biter and very unpredictable. We worked hundreds of hours with her, with two different trainers. We made inroads, but still we would never have trusted her around children or non "dog" ppl. We worked with her alone, with my very stable boy Magic, with Razzle, with all different folks and scenarios.
She was best with Magic, as he is alpha, and she took her clues from not only me but him. She felt very secure with him, as he was lead protector. She also had very little "signalling" of a bite, and that was a huge problem! No growls, snarls, air snaps, barks, nothing! Except a very small moment of time when she went from "still" to bite!

Magic was a challenge in different ways. Very secure, confident and dominant. He thought he should always run things. And very very protective of me and is pack. You could not "discipline" him in harsh ways, the rock just got harder! Re-direction, respect, constant training, fun and good rewards, all worked with him!

[concretegurl]

Most rescource guarders are as such because at some point a or several recourses were scarce.

Maybe this dog was a rescue, maybe the owners fault, I for what its worth actually had the kids feed the dogs and gently pet oyur dogs backs while they ate to prevent food agression.

So far it has worked for us, we did have a Princess Scoobers snarl roll over her trying to steal his bully stick.

Feeding by hand is a great but risky way to curb it.

The number 1 reason our local pound puts dogs down sadly is not health nor lack of adoptions but agression and most notably over food.

[julieandrea]

I personally don't see anything wrong with how he handled that dog..

[ladyjane]

Never been a fan. Don't care for his tactics at all.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by julieandrea

I personally don't see anything wrong with how he handled that dog..

[julieandrea]

Haha I realized as soon as I had posted that comment that people might find it shocking. But I mean that's a big dog, what else is he expected to do at this point to train him. He needs to show dominance. Friendly positive encouragement wouldn't work this far in the game I believe. It's not ok for a dog to ever bite a human even if he was threatened. Maybe Cesar should have seen it coming but it doesn't make it ok for the dog to feel like he could bite a human just because a human was standing over him and showing dominance. My friend has a pure breed large dog who wasn't handled with force at first. That quickly got out of hand and my friend really had to show who was dominant to get the dog to stop behaving badly. Cesar has been a trainer for a long time so he probably knows what's needed in teachin a dog who is that aggressive. But I may 100% be wrong. I've never personally owned an aggressive animal so I don't actually know what it's like. Couldn't care less for Cesar or his show but I think the dog was the one in the wrong in this situation. I don't mean to argue with everyone. Prob should have kept my thoughts to myself on this one..

[Ellie May]

I don't agree with what he did, but I just don't see how it is so much different than his other "training" methods. I'd bet most supporters on YT would have a big problem if Cesar came to their house and started treating their dogs how he treats the ones on tv. It is always written off as, "oh, he didn't kick the dog. He tapped it", "Static mats are find for big dogs", "It is ok that he does xyz because that dog was big/bad, etc.", "It is ok that a dog was overworked to the extreme on his property because he wasn't there". I could train like this, make soe dogs "submit", and get big bucks too.

I know he is thought of as a large breed trainer. i wouldn't let him touch any large breed dog of mine with a ten foot pole. Him putting himself in that position to get bitten needlessly shows me that he has no clue what he is doing. That is not how to train a dog. He could have kept himself safe, dropped the dominance attitude, and actually worked with the dog. I don't believe in positive reinforcement being used 100% of the time. I have no problem saying "no". But to try and dominate an aggressive dog...you will get hurt. And it doesn't matter how much control you think you have over an aggressive dog just because of your "calm energy". A history of fear aggression means it will likely happen again - and dominant or not that dog is probably stronger than you. It is ridiculous to put oneself in that much danger on purpose.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I don't agree with what he did, but I just don't see how it is so much different than his other "training" methods. I'd bet most supporters on YT would have a big problem if Cesar came to their house and started treating their dogs how he treats the ones on tv. It is always written off as, "oh, he didn't kick the dog. He tapped it", "Static mats are find for big dogs", "It is ok that he does xyz because that dog was big/bad, etc.", "It is ok that a dog was overworked to the extreme on his property because he wasn't there". I could train like this, make soe dogs "submit", and get big bucks too.

I know he is thought of as a large breed trainer. i wouldn't let him touch any large breed dog of mine with a ten foot pole. Him putting himself in that position to get bitten needlessly shows me that he has no clue what he is doing. That is not how to train a dog. He could have kept himself safe, dropped the dominance attitude, and actually worked with the dog. I don't believe in positive reinforcement being used 100% of the time. I have no problem saying "no". But to try and dominate an aggressive dog...you will get hurt. And it doesn't matter how much control you think you have over an aggressive dog just because of your "calm energy". A history of fear aggression means it will likely happen again - and dominant or not that dog is probably stronger than you. It is ridiculous to put oneself in that much danger on purpose.

10000% agree. I used to be one of those people. "Oh, that dog NEEDED that." etc etc.

Now when I watch him, knowing a lot more about dog training and dogs in general than I did two-three years ago, it makes me ill.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by julieandrea

Haha I realized as soon as I had posted that comment that people might find it shocking. But I mean that's a big dog, what else is he expected to do at this point to train him. He needs to show dominance. Friendly positive encouragement wouldn't work this far in the game I believe. It's not ok for a dog to ever bite a human even if he was threatened. Maybe Cesar should have seen it coming but it doesn't make it ok for the dog to feel like he could bite a human just because a human was standing over him and showing dominance. My friend has a pure breed large dog who wasn't handled with force at first. That quickly got out of hand and my friend really had to show who was dominant to get the dog to stop behaving badly. Cesar has been a trainer for a long time so he probably knows what's needed in teachin a dog who is that aggressive. But I may 100% be wrong. I've never personally owned an aggressive animal so I don't actually know what it's like. Couldn't care less for Cesar or his show but I think the dog was the one in the wrong in this situation. I don't mean to argue with everyone. Prob should have kept my thoughts to myself on this one..

First, I do not consider Cesar a dog trainer. He himself claims to train people, not the dogs. He 'rehabilitates' dogs using a method that was debunked by the very people who came up with the theory.

No, sorry, it IS okay for a dog to bite a human that is acting that way towards it. And this dog in particular showed a TON of restraint. She probably could have killed him -- she chose to give a warning bite (after MULTIPLE warning signs to 'back off'). This is how dogs communicate. We as humans have the capability to actually speak to someone and say "look, I'm uncomfortable with this. Let's try another method." Dogs do not have the advantage to do this. If someone approached me in a domineering, intimidating manner and I asked them again and again and again to get out of my face and they ignored me, kept coming at me, and backed me into a corner, would I be explosive if I shoved them away from me? It's not the dog's fault... we as humans can explain through words, and can shove, or hit. For a dog a hit or a shove is a bite. That dog showed incredible patience and gave plenty of warning signs.

Keep in mind, I'm somewhat of a 'crossover' as I used to defend Cesar to no end. I'm so glad I opened my eyes. If anyone EVER touched my dog the way he does to dogs, they'd have their face kicked in by me. Jackson is one of the most well behaved dogs that I know, and yes I'm biased, lol, but it's true, he really is. His biggest issue is he will alert bark when someone new walks in the door. He stops when I tell him 'enough'. If Cesar walked in my door, and started 'cshh'ing and poking him, Jackson would completely have a breakdown and probably never trust people again. All it takes it for the new person to walk in, let them sniff his hand, maybe give him a treat, I let him know it's okay and all is well with the world. It breaks my heart to see how the dogs will cower into 'submission' and it makes me think if MY dog was in that situation.

Cesar torments dogs .... he gets them into defensive behavior, agitates them on purpose to push them past their limit, and then hurts them for it (gets them into trouble). The psychological damage he causes dogs is ridiculous. They live in a constant state of worry, stress and helplessness. Chronic stress, as most know, does a lot of harm to living beings both physiologically and psychologically ... raises blood pressure, respiration rate, and heart rate, increases cortisol levels and adrenalin, among other physically damaging things when they're so high and constant. He literally knows nothing about dog behavior and goes on and on about how 'dominant' a dog is without paying any attention the signs a dog is giving us. I can't believe that at one time I was so blind to not see it while watching his show. REALLY learn about dog behavior - read and study up on canine body language and then watch Cesar's show ... even better... watch it in silence! Watch the dogs body language when interacting with Cesar.

Yes I love that he preaches exercise and being calm. But honestly? That's about it these days. After seeing the Holly video, which is a recent video, I was totally done with him. It's very odd to me because he does truly seem to love dogs, but it's like his pride and ego can't get in the way and say 'I was wrong' and try to listen to the current SCIENCE of dog training. He's got to have this macho domineering image. Just let it go, dude.

Watch this... this dog Holly in slow motion. And then tell me this dog did not give any warning signs and should not have bit.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4655581307021

I'm being very serious. I'd love to know your opinions. Because I used to be on the other side of things. I always came up with a reason or an excuse for his behavior. But even this, I can't fathom ever thinking this was okay to do to a dog.

I've also watched dogs in person become ruined by these methods. I dogsit a Rottweiler from puppyhood (8 weeks old) and watched the owner pull these Cesar Millan dominance crap on him and by 2 years old, he was a broken down dog. He did not trust people, was not trusted around them, and turned somewhat aggressive. But god was he smart. He had so much potential. I taught him so many things without ever using so called 'dominance'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not all 'oh everything will be happy dandy if all is positive'. I yell at the dogs sometimes when I'm irritated, I tell them 'no', sometimes I make them do things they don't want to do. I do not believe prong collars are all evil, or invisible fences should be banned. But there is no reason to treat a dog like this poor dog in the video was treated. That is not training. And 95% of the 'training' Cesar does is not. I just feel sad for all the dogs who are suffering because of people trying imitate his methods and failing. Not to mention, the poor dog in the video now lives with Cesar. FWIW, I DO agree that a dog that resource guards such as this should not be living in a home with a child, there were so many better options that could have been looked at.

[Ellie May]

Forgot to add that I'm sorry he is goingthrough all of this, but his training methods are a direct extension of what is ging on with him psychologically. Why is there a do not try this at home warning on the show when he is showing owners what to do for after he leaves! And I don't believe for one second that he takes on the worst of the worst dogs. It is an excuse to justify constant dominant force.

IMO, if you want to see how to train a large breed dog, look into the villalobos Rescue. And if you want to train a large breed aggressive dog, still look into it but realize these dogs can never be trusted. If you have a dog like this then all you can do is try to keep everyone safe. Forgettraining until people and animals are safe.

[ladyjane]

Fear is simply not the way to train a dog. Period. I don't see any way that I could ever justify what CM does.

I have a fear biter .. of course he weighs 7 pounds making it easier to deal with; but I would never, ever want him to fear me in any way. He has come a long, long way and it is because he has learned that humans can be trusted. I gave him space...and also gave him some limits until he realized that certain behaviors were more accepted than others. I never tried to be dominant with him...and it was suggested by some people....I used positive reinforcements only. Someone ruined him before I got him...it was not something that was wrong with him that made him like he was or he would still be like he was. He came to me as a feral animal. He was tied up outside and Heaven only knows how he was treated because he was a mess.

I don't see the difference in how you treat any dog...no matter the size....the results will only be positive if you are using positive reinforcement....BUT as someone said you must always be very careful with a dog that has a history of biting and yes, a large dog is a whole different ball game because they can kill. They can and will revert back to that behavior if something triggers it. I don't believe it goes away completely....BUT I do believe it is possible to rehab them.