Training issue: Who's right? Me or my wife?

[alaskayorkie]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

UhOh! Do you think you'll be able to handle us all by yourself?

No, but what a way to go.

[My Sophia]

We pretty much let our two sort it out themselves. Gulliver thinks he's the alpha when it comes to toys and treats. I can give them two identical items and he'll drop his to go take hers. Soph could really care less most of the time and just lets him take it. Petty squabbling over toys and treats is far beneath her majesty's dignity. But once in a while if she's feeling particularly playful and the toy is small enough for her to hold on to it she'll play keep away. Sometimes if she's PMSing and he tries to take something, she'll put him on his back. And he definitely learned very quickly that he'd better never ever EVER mess with her Wizzler. Gulliver has 5 pounds on Sophia but she's 6 years older. Old age and treachery will defeat youthful enthusiasm every time LOL. Unless one of them starts squealing or I see fur flying, I let them go and watch the circus.

[alaskayorkie]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Most, if not all scientific research in the past fifteen years has debunked the idea of alpha/beta/omega ranking in dogs. There's a great book that covers recent canine research:

Amazon.com: Dog Sense: How the New Science of Dog Behavior Can Make You A Better Friend to Your Pet (9780465019441): John Bradshaw: Books

One thing that "alpha-ness" doesn't address is that different resources may be more or less important to a given dog at any time. A non-confrontational dog may change his stripes when he's hungry. Or maybe one dog always gets human affection first, but doesn't care about toys particularly.

I have seen two contradicting arguments based on alpha theory on possessiveness. The first says that you should allow dogs to work it out among themselves, because dogs are happier when they know their place. The second says that you should not allow this kind of behavior, or even force the possessive dog into "last" place, because not intervening displaces you as the ultimate alpha.

Since there's no evidence for either side of the argument as far as I know, I vote for doing whatever you want. But of course, the wife is always right.



Up with four-kneed elephants!

Thanks for the great responses, everyone. I'd intended it just as a silly poll, but there's been some great discussion and, as usual, I learn things from discussions.

First off, the "alpha" issue. I went to the source I always go to for canine advice, Dr. Ian Dunbar at Dog Star Daily, and I was beaten over the head by the "alpha fallacy", The Alpha Fallacy | Dog Star Daily.

I'd read it before but evidently filed it away in a brain cell I was using for alcohol storage or something. I continued to think of Eddie as "alpha," even though his behavior at its worst is more of what Dunbar describes as a middle ranking male. According to Dunbar, they're the ones who most often think they have something to prove through aggression.

But toss out the terminology part of it, and I think what I'm doing is still close to being right. Eddie initially had a huge issue with toy hoarding and aggression. After a failed attempt to address it through Cesaresque techniques, I got some advice from a behaviorist. From that point on, I used positive techniques, and the only negative reinforcement he got was withholding reward (the toy) for bad behavior.

The behaviorist explained to me that it would likely be a lifetime battle. Currently, I'm left with a dog who still thinks the toys are his, but he won't fight to get them. As long as he doesn't fight and Jillie is willing to share, we have a balanced pack. It hit home just last night when he was given a bully stick and left it untended. Jillie took it and was working on it. Eddie moved within a couple feet of her and yipped a little as if he wanted it, but he didn't take it from her. That's a sign of a huge gain for us that I've been working on for 5 years. (I did take it from Jillie and give it to him while giving Jillie another).

In a perfect world, there would be no possessiveness over toys, but we haven't gotten there yet. I think Eddie's problems came from leaving the litter too early. He never learned to play and he never learned to share. I was able to stop the fighting, and from there I let them work it out on their own. I don't trust him 100 percent with toys around because of all we've been through, but I feel pretty darned good about where we are.

Of course, last night brought up another little twist. Eddie normally sleeps with his mama, but she hadn't come to bed yet. Jillie was snuggled up pretty close to me, where she normally sleeps. Well, Eddie hopped up, carefully picked a path around Jillie, and snuggled up right next to my face. Jillie had to move a few inches to give him the place he wanted, but she did it without raising a fuss. I wondered if I should allow it or not but decided they'd just worked it out on their own.

Ah, dogs, you gotta love 'em.

[DvlshAngel985]

Your post reminded me about something I've been wanting to ask:
Yorkies on your pillow, is that a power move on their behalf, or are they just getting comfy?

[alaskayorkie]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Your post reminded me about something I've been wanting to ask:
Yorkies on your pillow, is that a power move on their behalf, or are they just getting comfy?

My feeling is if it's OK with you and there's no negative behavior associated with it (growling, etc), go for it. (Of course, what do I know? I received a tongue-lashing after my last attempt to sound smart. )

I'm sure there are people who will tell you dogs don't even belong on the bed, but Dunbar generally says if it's not a problem with you, let it go. If it is a problem, train them not to do it.

[QuickSilver]

Mike, I want to congratulate you for capitulating on four-kneed elephants. It's not always easy to admit when you're wrong, but I'm glad you're getting the practice.

Just to throw you a bone, as I understand it, "dominance" scientifically means "better access to resources". What you described actually does sound like dominance: Eddie wants toys, and Eddie gets toys.

For me, I bristle a bit whenever I hear "dominance" or "alpha" because it's used in many different situations and never seems to mean exactly the same thing. A lot of times, it seems like any unwanted behavior is described as dominance. I remember when I got Thor, I thought he was asserting dominance, but I realize now that he's softer than a hot marshmellow. I'm really glad I read up on dog body language because it helped me realize that Thor is constantly giving appeasement signals. I also tried the alpha roll on Thor a few times, and I feel bad about it now. All it did was scare him.

However, for all his softness, Thor does guard me, and that's been getting worse. He used to just guard me from other dogs, and he's started guarding me from people, even people he knows well. Which is off the point, but I guess I mean that dogs can be passive in some situations and aggressive in others.

[alaskayorkie]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Mike, I want to congratulate you for capitulating on four-kneed elephants. It's not always easy to admit when you're wrong, but I'm glad you're getting the practice.

Oh contraire. I continue to defend the maligned elephants and the burden thrust upon them by those who say they have four knees. I had THOUGHT my message to you was loud and clear, but I see maybe I rushed the lesson. Be prepared for periodic reminders.

[QuickSilver]

No need to acknowledge my triumph, as I know that is difficult for you. The fact that you changed your avatar is apology enough.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by alaskayorkie

My feeling is if it's OK with you and there's no negative behavior associated with it (growling, etc), go for it. (Of course, what do I know? I received a tongue-lashing after my last attempt to sound smart. )

I'm sure there are people who will tell you dogs don't even belong on the bed, but Dunbar generally says if it's not a problem with you, let it go. If it is a problem, train them not to do it.

No growling yet. I like having Kaji in my bed, and it's not like he goes for the pillow very often. If it bothers me, I move him, and he stays where I put him. Other days, I'm lazy and he stays. I just remembered how others have said that's a alpha thing, blah blah blah. I don't get the alpha thing. I just know I'm the boss and Kaji for the most part is my obedient little boy.

[Yorkiedaze]

I think we adults are the alpha, not the dog. If you give a dog the alpha roll, he may not be very happy with it since it's a major responsibility looking after home, humans and other animals in the house. That could cause trauma too. I think all the dogs in the house should be treated equally.

[alaskayorkie]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

No growling yet. I like having Kaji in my bed, and it's not like he goes for the pillow very often. If it bothers me, I move him, and he stays where I put him. Other days, I'm lazy and he stays. I just remembered how others have said that's a alpha thing, blah blah blah. I don't get the alpha thing. I just know I'm the boss and Kaji for the most part is my obedient little boy.

QS debunked the alpha theory all by herself, so I think you're fine if he's not being pushy. I will say that Eddie once nipped me fairly seriously in the face while on the bed because he mistook me for Jack moving into his territory. It didn't ruin my modeling career, but he lost bed privileges for a while over that one.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by alaskayorkie

QS debunked the alpha theory all by herself, so I think you're fine if he's not being pushy. I will say that Eddie once nipped me fairly seriously in the face while on the bed because he mistook me for Jack moving into his territory. It didn't ruin my modeling career, but he lost bed privileges for a while over that one.

I remember that. It looked like it hurt.

[LovinMia]

yes like every group there is a Pack Leader natural order