Training issue: Who's right? Me or my wife? - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

alaskayorkie · 08-19-2011, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Most, if not all scientific research in the past fifteen years has debunked the idea of alpha/beta/omega ranking in dogs. There's a great book that covers recent canine research:

Amazon.com: Dog Sense: How the New Science of Dog Behavior Can Make You A Better Friend to Your Pet (9780465019441): John Bradshaw: Books

One thing that "alpha-ness" doesn't address is that different resources may be more or less important to a given dog at any time. A non-confrontational dog may change his stripes when he's hungry. Or maybe one dog always gets human affection first, but doesn't care about toys particularly.

I have seen two contradicting arguments based on alpha theory on possessiveness. The first says that you should allow dogs to work it out among themselves, because dogs are happier when they know their place. The second says that you should not allow this kind of behavior, or even force the possessive dog into "last" place, because not intervening displaces you as the ultimate alpha.

Since there's no evidence for either side of the argument as far as I know, I vote for doing whatever you want. But of course, the wife is always right.

Down with people who believe in four-kneed elephants!

Listen, One-Dog-Wanda, I don't expect YOU to understand the practical applications of my theories. (Or is it theorems? That always used to sound smarter when I was failing algebra.)

I'm not a Cesar Milan worshipper, at least not for average dogs without severe behavioral issues. I've actually tried the alpha roll and some of those techniques, and they failed miserably. But I definitely see a pecking order in the dogs I've owned and the dogs I've hung out with. However, I've bookmarked your book suggestion and plan to devour it and debunk anything you like in it, just as I've debunked you in the past. I will agree with your penultimate conclusion, however: Do what works for you.

I'm heartened to see how many people share my observation in this poll. I especially like Patti's situation. Your "alpha" (I will put that in quotes until I can debunk QS) doesn't like toys! To me, that would be the perfect world.

jadabug · 08-19-2011, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alaskayorkie

I ban you for not voting! But I'm jealous. I'm always on guard when toys are out.

I voted!!!!

alaskayorkie · 08-19-2011, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadabug

I voted!!!!

There were two votes BEFORE you commented and two votes AFTER you commented. And NEVER roll your eyes at me again!

Princess10 · 08-19-2011, 01:15 PM

It's going to killlll me to write this, but I think I agree with you, Mikey.

I only have one/my first pup & although she will listen she pretty much runs the roost here. She's just bossy about when she wants to do something now & I mostly accommodate her.

When we go to my parents they have 2 J.R.'s & a rat terrier. All three dogs dominate Princess 90% of the visit as far as making her basically bow to them...literally. It used to bother me but it doesn't bother Princess so it must be OK.

The dogs don't play with toys much but Princess digs them up & when Sapphire (J.R.) hears the squeak she's determined to break it, & will every single time.

If I throw it & she gets it first Princess just walks away, but Princess wont give it to her if she has possession first. They're not mean, Princess will bark to 'ask' for whatever but there's no aggression so I just leave them alone.

Part of me does want to agree with Kelly though, if you're the bosses then that should be it. Since Eddie recognizes you both as bosses then I think it's OK. So I don't know, I guess my final conclusion is as long as it's not causing 'violence' or Jillie to seriously fear Eddie all of the time it's OK for them to work out their issues themselves.

ladyjane · 08-19-2011, 01:22 PM

My Cookie is an alpha but does not have a thing for toys. She is just the motherly type.

Then, I have a foster, Sunny D, who believes that every toy in this house belongs to him. He is not an alpha at all. He is horrible about toys and does just what Eddie does. I pretty much do what you do, Mike. I have found it impossible to stop him and honestly I had other things with him that needed my attention. He used to be so high strung about food and would bite when taking treats out of hands. I have finally gotten him pretty ok with it but he still needs a reminder. The other pups in my home do not like Sunny and I totally get why. They do manage to keep toys away from him....but, often times he wins. I do what you do...just hand another toy to the one who got the toy snatched away. When they get fed up with him, they snip at him and he goes away for a bit. So...they do work it out. Is it the way I want it? NO.....I want them to share...but as you said they are not humans and it is hard to reason with them in such a manner.

I believe if they are not harming each other, it is best to let them work things out. When they get nasty with each other, I step in. I just don't get involved in little squabbles. I have 8 yorkies plus my fosters (sounds insane, I know

)and I have to say that I am very proud of the way they act together...and with new pups that come in. Friends of mine came over last night and brought their two pups...not an ounce of a problem. Guess you could say I am not much of a trainer....I really do stink at that...but, I do know (I think) how to help them live together well.

Teresa Ford · 08-19-2011, 01:28 PM

The Alpha is the alpha. The pack knows and we should respect that. Gracie a 2 yr old female, is the boss . Rubin is 8 yrs old and never challenges her. The two puppies do so we will see what happens.

Britster · 08-19-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Most, if not all scientific research in the past fifteen years has debunked the idea of alpha/beta/omega ranking in dogs. There's a great book that covers recent canine research:

Amazon.com: Dog Sense: How the New Science of Dog Behavior Can Make You A Better Friend to Your Pet (9780465019441): John Bradshaw: Books

One thing that "alpha-ness" doesn't address is that different resources may be more or less important to a given dog at any time. A non-confrontational dog may change his stripes when he's hungry. Or maybe one dog always gets human affection first, but doesn't care about toys particularly.

I have seen two contradicting arguments based on alpha theory on possessiveness. The first says that you should allow dogs to work it out among themselves, because dogs are happier when they know their place. The second says that you should not allow this kind of behavior, or even force the possessive dog into "last" place, because not intervening displaces you as the ultimate alpha.

Since there's no evidence for either side of the argument as far as I know, I vote for doing whatever you want. But of course, the wife is always right.

Up with four-kneed elephants!

This!

capt_noonie · 08-19-2011, 01:41 PM

This is interesting! I always thought I was "helping"! Katie was the alpha. She would steal all of Uni's squeaky toys and destroy them. Uni would never try to get the toys back herself, and would come to us and whine. So I'd take the toy from Katie (she let me take it easily) and I would give it to Uni. As soon as I gave it to Uni, Katie would come take it back.

DvlshAngel985 · 08-19-2011, 02:04 PM

LJ, I love your foster baby's name. Sunny D, how cute!

TxVicki · 08-19-2011, 03:34 PM

Well then I guess I have done it all wrong. LOL

In my house I am the Alpha and the Girl's know it.
I can honestly say I have no problems with them on toy's, food or anything.

yorkietalkjilly · 08-19-2011, 03:41 PM

I say let dogs be dogs and let them decide who is alpha, beta, etc. They are far happier that way! Years and years of observing all kinds of dogs teaches you that they know best how to deal with one another according to their mores. Trying to take a weaker dog and give it things first or preferentially upsets the whole pack. Dogs expect their alpha leader to go first and get his/her "due".

alaskayorkie · 08-19-2011, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britster

This!

Get a room, you two!

jencar98 · 08-19-2011, 04:39 PM

I voted for your side Mike, for all the good that will do you

You know the wife will win....give it up!

alaskayorkie · 08-19-2011, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jencar98

I voted for your side Mike, for all the good that will do you

You know the wife will win....give it up!

Yeah, I've pretty much already given up. She won, at least when she's home.

JMuedog · 08-19-2011, 07:35 PM

At my house Gwenni is the alpha dog when it comes to toys. My thoughts are if Finnigan really wanted to keep his toy he'd put up a better fight. If its a toy he really loves one heck of a tug of war game starts up, if not Finnigan lets Gwenni take it. I don't think intervening changes the outcome.

View Poll Results: Should an alpha male be allowed to take what he wants from other dogs?
1. No. It's unfair. Humans should decide who gets what.	18	38.30%
2. Yes. Dogs decide their own pecking order	24	51.06%
3. Other (explain)	5	10.64%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

08-19-2011, 01:15 PM	#19
Princess10 Banning Queen Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Home of the Kalamazoo Wings, MI. Posts: 3,122	It's going to killlll me to write this, but I think I agree with you, Mikey. I only have one/my first pup & although she will listen she pretty much runs the roost here. She's just bossy about when she wants to do something now & I mostly accommodate her. When we go to my parents they have 2 J.R.'s & a rat terrier. All three dogs dominate Princess 90% of the visit as far as making her basically bow to them...literally. It used to bother me but it doesn't bother Princess so it must be OK. The dogs don't play with toys much but Princess digs them up & when Sapphire (J.R.) hears the squeak she's determined to break it, & will every single time. If I throw it & she gets it first Princess just walks away, but Princess wont give it to her if she has possession first. They're not mean, Princess will bark to 'ask' for whatever but there's no aggression so I just leave them alone. Part of me does want to agree with Kelly though, if you're the bosses then that should be it. Since Eddie recognizes you both as bosses then I think it's OK. So I don't know, I guess my final conclusion is as long as it's not causing 'violence' or Jillie to seriously fear Eddie all of the time it's OK for them to work out their issues themselves. __________________ For The Night Is Dark & Full Of Terriers

08-19-2011, 01:22 PM	#20
ladyjane Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 27,490	My Cookie is an alpha but does not have a thing for toys. She is just the motherly type. Then, I have a foster, Sunny D, who believes that every toy in this house belongs to him. He is not an alpha at all. He is horrible about toys and does just what Eddie does. I pretty much do what you do, Mike. I have found it impossible to stop him and honestly I had other things with him that needed my attention. He used to be so high strung about food and would bite when taking treats out of hands. I have finally gotten him pretty ok with it but he still needs a reminder. The other pups in my home do not like Sunny and I totally get why. They do manage to keep toys away from him....but, often times he wins. I do what you do...just hand another toy to the one who got the toy snatched away. When they get fed up with him, they snip at him and he goes away for a bit. So...they do work it out. Is it the way I want it? NO.....I want them to share...but as you said they are not humans and it is hard to reason with them in such a manner. I believe if they are not harming each other, it is best to let them work things out. When they get nasty with each other, I step in. I just don't get involved in little squabbles. I have 8 yorkies plus my fosters (sounds insane, I know )and I have to say that I am very proud of the way they act together...and with new pups that come in. Friends of mine came over last night and brought their two pups...not an ounce of a problem. Guess you could say I am not much of a trainer....I really do stink at that...but, I do know (I think) how to help them live together well. __________________ CLOUD NINE BEDS--YORKIE HAVEN RESCUE MY ETSY SHOP

08-19-2011, 01:41 PM	#23
capt_noonie www.yorkierescue.com Donating Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Las Vegas & Orange County Posts: 17,408	This is interesting! I always thought I was "helping"! Katie was the alpha. She would steal all of Uni's squeaky toys and destroy them. Uni would never try to get the toys back herself, and would come to us and whine. So I'd take the toy from Katie (she let me take it easily) and I would give it to Uni. As soon as I gave it to Uni, Katie would come take it back. __________________ The T.U.B. Pack! Toto, Uni, & Bindi RIP Lord Scrappington Montgomery McLimpybottom aka El Lenguo the Handicapped Ninja 10-12-12

08-19-2011, 02:04 PM	#24
DvlshAngel985 Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA Posts: 12,693	LJ, I love your foster baby's name. Sunny D, how cute! __________________ Littlest JakJak We miss you Kaji

08-19-2011, 01:28 PM	#21
Teresa Ford Therapy Yorkies Work Donating Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Central, Florida Posts: 3,863	The Alpha is the alpha. The pack knows and we should respect that. Gracie a 2 yr old female, is the boss . Rubin is 8 yrs old and never challenges her. The two puppies do so we will see what happens.

08-19-2011, 03:34 PM	#25
TxVicki Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: At Home Posts: 8,386	Well then I guess I have done it all wrong. LOL In my house I am the Alpha and the Girl's know it. I can honestly say I have no problems with them on toy's, food or anything. __________________ [SIZE="3"VICKI & ALLIE[/SIZE]

08-19-2011, 03:41 PM	#26
yorkietalkjilly ♥ Love My Tibbe! ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: D/FW, Texas Posts: 22,140	I say let dogs be dogs and let them decide who is alpha, beta, etc. They are far happier that way! Years and years of observing all kinds of dogs teaches you that they know best how to deal with one another according to their mores. Trying to take a weaker dog and give it things first or preferentially upsets the whole pack. Dogs expect their alpha leader to go first and get his/her "due". __________________ Jeanie and Tibbe One must do the best one can. You may get some marks for a very imperfect answer: you will certainly get none for leaving the question alone. C. S. Lewis

08-19-2011, 04:39 PM	#28
jencar98 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 6,435 Blog Entries: 3	I voted for your side Mike, for all the good that will do you You know the wife will win....give it up! __________________ ~Ruby, Reno, Razz, & Jack~

08-19-2011, 07:35 PM	#30
JMuedog Love My Little Cuties Donating Member Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Charleston, IL Posts: 9,899	At my house Gwenni is the alpha dog when it comes to toys. My thoughts are if Finnigan really wanted to keep his toy he'd put up a better fight. If its a toy he really loves one heck of a tug of war game starts up, if not Finnigan lets Gwenni take it. I don't think intervening changes the outcome. __________________ Jenni Finnigan & Gwenndilyn Forever in my heart