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Old 07-12-2010, 09:47 AM   #1
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Default Training without treats?

My 11 month old morkie, Kimchee, has some behavioral problems
My girlfriend and I have taken her to puppy class that used positive reinforcement with treats and praise. She did well but unfortunately we weren't really consistent with the training afterwards. I work full time and she is in school and working part time so it's been hard.

Anyway, my girlfriend took Kimchee to the vet last week. Kimchee became very aggressive and tried to bite the vet when she was trying to look in her ear. So the vet took Kimchee to the back room where she couldn't see my girlfriend. It turns out that once my girlfriend was out of sight, Kimchee became calm. The vet recommend that we do 1 on 1 training and referred us to this Day care/Boarding/Training place.

We checked the place out a couple of days ago. The girl that we spoke to explained to us that they don't use food to train. They say they teach the dogs to respect the owners. They show the dogs who the alpha is. I explained to them that we tried one puppy class before and they wanted us to use choke chains. We did not want to do anything like that. The girl told us they don't train through fear but through gaining respect. She did not give any examples on how they teach the dogs respect without treats.

What do you guys think of this trainer? Everything that I've read on yorkietalk about training has to do with positive reinforcement with treats. I want to correct Kimchee's behavior but I want to do it the right way. Any suggestions?
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:39 PM   #2
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You are right to question this trainer. Do not hire anyone who is not willing to explain her/his methods in detail. A good trainer should be willing to do demonstrations and allow you to sit in on a class (assuming that most trainers have classes in addition to doing one-on-one training).

Training is possible without food rewards. One of the exhibitors here who also competes in agility advised me to designate a special toy, one that you reserve only for training sessions. That works if your dog is toy motivated.

I have encountered too many trainers and dog owners who advise me to do things that will cause my Yorkies physical harm, including using a variety of collars.

Keep looking for a better trainer. I would insist on being present during training sessions.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:51 PM   #3
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I agree. When I saw this thread's title, I thought it was going to be a question about training with praise or toys.

No trainer is going to tell you, "yes, we train through fear and physical force." They are going to say, "respect". Not that this trainer is guaranteed to be bad, just that "respect" is a really broad term, and she should be willing to be more transparent with you.



Also... I think you have your answer when you say that she did well in a positive training class, but you weren't consistent afterwards. So you already have a method that you know will be successful with her. NO training method will work if it's not practiced consistently.

If you were happy with her puppy class, maybe you can contact them and ask for a referral.

Also, many pets are more amenable to being handled when their owners aren't there. Trying to bite the vet is a little over the top, but it's not shocking or anything.

Also -- I'm really glad that you are checking this trainer out, and making sure you do the right thing for your girl.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 07-12-2010 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 07-12-2010, 01:01 PM   #4
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In terms of your specific issue with the vet, you should be able to train her to accept handling without treats.

All you need to do is wait until she is relaxed during a belly rub, and slowly start touching her everywhere. Touch her paw, praise her, rub her belly. Touch her ears, praise her, rub her belly. Go slow - the key is to teach her that touching is not scary. Touch her everywhere on her body - open her mouth, tug her ears, hold her paws, move her tail, etc. Practice this every day for a few months, and you should see a huge transformation.

If you want to get really sophisticated with it, you can teach her the names of her body parts, and then when you take her to the vet, you can tell her what's coming next. I haven't gone this far, but it's supposed to help animals by making the examination feel less like random poking and prodding.
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Old 07-12-2010, 01:30 PM   #5
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Great advice Quicksilver.

I forgot about the all important praise.
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:50 PM   #6
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Thank you all for the advice. I will definitely look for a different trainer.

As for Kimchee, she is definitely food motivated. The problem is... the only time she'll listen is when I have food! She will do "sit" and "down" without food. But anything else... such as come when called... she only does if I have food. Potty training wise she is great. I don't think the toy motivation will work on her. She tires of her toys very quickly.

My girlfriend and I can touch her anywhere and she doesn't care. Her ears, mouth, paws... but when it's a different person then that's another story. She gets aggressive with my parents when they try to pick her up. And she spends a lot of time with them too! I know she knows them by now.

Another annoying problem with her is she runs away a lot of times when I try to pick her up. For example, if we have to leave the house I try to pick her up to put her in the car. She'll run away from me as if we're playing a game. She won't listen to me at all. Any ideas on how to solve this?

Honestly, I think she's very smart but in a conniving kind of a way haha
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:38 PM   #7
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I think a good trainer can definitely help you with these things.

Different dogs have different levels of desire to please. Your dog may not be very "biddable". Thor is also all about the food, and has absolutely no interest in earning my respect.

A rule of thumb on training is that while you are teaching, you reliably give one treat every time she successfully performs, or maybe a whole bunch if she does exceptionally well. Once she knows the command cold, start treating her randomly. It is quite difficult to learn how to move from structured to random - I'm still struggling myself - but pretty much all training literature says that a random reinforcement schedule is much more effective for maintaining a desired behavior.

At some point, obeying you will become a habit, and you won't have to treat at all. Expect to wait a long time for this stage.

On training to Come: there are a lot of threads on this. First, absolutely do NOT chase her, as you are teaching her that it's fun to run away from you. Since Come is such an important command, it's absolutely fine to use food to train it. She should think Coming to you is the most fabulous thing ever. You and your bf can train her to Come together, it's quite easy. Both of you grab some treats, and take turns calling her. Every time she runs to you, she gets a treat! Come will be her favorite command.

If you need her for something unpleasant like a bath, don't call her. Just go pick her up.

If she IS running away from you, again, don't chase her. You can try lying on the floor. This should provoke her curiosity and prompt her to approach you. You can also turn and run in the other direction, so again, she learns that running after you is fun, rather than the other way around.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 07-12-2010 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:01 PM   #8
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I think a good trainer can definitely help you with these things.

Different dogs have different levels of desire to please. Your dog may not be very "biddable". Thor is also all about the food, and has absolutely no interest in earning my respect.

A rule of thumb on training is that while you are teaching, you reliably give one treat every time she successfully performs, or maybe a whole bunch if she does exceptionally well. Once she knows the command cold, start treating her randomly. It is quite difficult to learn how to move from structured to random - I'm still struggling myself - but pretty much all training literature says that a random reinforcement schedule is much more effective for maintaining a desired behavior.

At some point, obeying you will become a habit, and you won't have to treat at all. Expect to wait a long time for this stage.

On training to Come: there are a lot of threads on this. First, absolutely do NOT chase her, as you are teaching her that it's fun to run away from you. Since Come is such an important command, it's absolutely fine to use food to train it. She should think Coming to you is the most fabulous thing ever. You and your bf can train her to Come together, it's quite easy. Both of you grab some treats, and take turns calling her. Every time she runs to you, she gets a treat! Come will be her favorite command.

If you need her for something unpleasant like a bath, don't call her. Just go pick her up.

If she IS running away from you, again, don't chase her. You can try lying on the floor. This should provoke her curiosity and prompt her to approach you. You can also turn and run in the other direction, so again, she learns that running after you is fun, rather than the other way around.
I'm at a loss for creativity, and teaching Kaji new tricks, but I definitely review what he knows as many times as I can.
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:36 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by komutanon View Post
My girlfriend and I can touch her anywhere and she doesn't care. Her ears, mouth, paws... but when it's a different person then that's another story. She gets aggressive with my parents when they try to pick her up. And she spends a lot of time with them too! I know she knows them by now.
There are many possible explanations and solutions for this problem. How do your parents approach her and pick her up? What do they do with her once they pick her up?

Your girl may be trying to say she doesn't want to be picked up and restrained because she wants to sniff and check out your parents and/or their home first (although she knows them and their home well). Every visit requires new inspection of both the people and place.

My older boy knows my brothers, but he would not be happy if they walked in the door and immediately tried to pick him up. Max also has a problem with people wanting to rub the top of his head, pinch his cheeks, bounce him like a baby, and basically get in his face. He tolerates it when we are in a crowd, but he will get squirmy if he doesn't feel outnumbered.

Do your parents doggy sit your girl? Maybe she is aggressive toward your parents because she fears you leaving.

Have your parents allow your girl to approach them and have them give her small treats, play a little fetch with her or whatever she likes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by komutanon View Post
Another annoying problem with her is she runs away a lot of times when I try to pick her up. For example, if we have to leave the house I try to pick her up to put her in the car. She'll run away from me as if we're playing a game. She won't listen to me at all. Any ideas on how to solve this?

Honestly, I think she's very smart but in a conniving kind of a way haha
Quicksilver offered great advice above for teaching your dog to come on command. One more idea -- when you teach the command, turn away from your dog and move in the direction that you want your dog to go.

Don't ever show your frustration or anxiety to your dog. Max likes to play hard to get too. He will come to me and right when I reach to pick him up, he will turn and strut away. I have to work hard to suppress my laughter or screams, depending on what mood I'm in, and I look at the wall or my fingernails like I've got all the time in the world. That is when he comes to me and sits to be picked up.
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:30 PM   #10
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Just a couple quick notes- I use treats to train, but i am also very firm about being the alpha.

All humans are alpha. If Bailey turns away from my adult daughter who is just trying to give attention - then I demand that my daughter correct the situation. At no time is Bailey to have the upper hand.


When Bailey was younger, she also ran away when i tried to pick her up. To fix his , I would randomly bend over to pet her. I wanted her to know that she wasn't going to get picked up everytime I bent over. If she started to trot away, then I said "stop!" - which worked from the first time - and proceed to pet her. Then, once in a while I would sneak a treat in my hand and bend over to pick her up - then I gave her a treat. She learned that being picked up was a good thing.

Good luck!!
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:45 AM   #11
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Just a couple quick notes- I use treats to train, but i am also very firm about being the alpha.

All humans are alpha. If Bailey turns away from my adult daughter who is just trying to give attention - then I demand that my daughter correct the situation. At no time is Bailey to have the upper hand.


When Bailey was younger, she also ran away when i tried to pick her up. To fix his , I would randomly bend over to pet her. I wanted her to know that she wasn't going to get picked up everytime I bent over. If she started to trot away, then I said "stop!" - which worked from the first time - and proceed to pet her. Then, once in a while I would sneak a treat in my hand and bend over to pick her up - then I gave her a treat. She learned that being picked up was a good thing.

Good luck!!

That's a good idea! I'm going to try that.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:20 PM   #12
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I'm gonna try those tips on "come when called" and "picking her up" tonight! Sounds like great advice.

Regarding my parents, yes they do dog sit. But Kimchee doesn't really show much separation anxiety any more unless we lock her in her kennel.

I think the main problem there is they let her do whatever she wants
This probably plays a big part in hindering her training.

I guess we'll just have to work a little harder on training Kimchee and my parents!
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:55 PM   #13
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I'm gonna try those tips on "come when called" and "picking her up" tonight! Sounds like great advice.

Regarding my parents, yes they do dog sit. But Kimchee doesn't really show much separation anxiety any more unless we lock her in her kennel.

I think the main problem there is they let her do whatever she wants
This probably plays a big part in hindering her training.

I guess we'll just have to work a little harder on training Kimchee and my parents!
Dogs do not genrealize so train at your parents home and with your parents around so she understands that the rules are the rules.

Or do what I do give my dog a break and let them have time off from nothing in life is free and fun time at grandmas or in our case aunties.

Again dogs do not genralize so getting good stuff one place should not unless you break the rules when with the parents should not effect anything.

My girls hang out and run wild and are safe as tehy are not set up to fail they get tucked away if guest come and do not understand that one is special needs when at Aunties house.

The down time is wonderful and gives them a vacation and freshens their want to learn and gives me a break too.


Karrie treat and train does not mean being permissive so your are not being alpha you are being a good parent and leader if sometimes you stand your ground and say no you can not eat that gopher even f you really really want to and if you come away I will find you something as good as I can to replace it. Alpha would be get off that gopher or I will drag you kicking screaming and foaming at the mouth cause I am choking you on the choke chain as in the fellow on TV.

There is a usual mistake made that positive means we let our dogs do as they please when they please and or always for a treat. My guys rarely see a clicker or treat now as they are all trained and on radom reinforcement which is a goal of any good clicker trainer to get away from bribing thier dog.
I do drag it out to shape something new or in times when I want to freshen something or just for fun for all.

JL
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Old 07-14-2010, 11:53 PM   #14
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Oh, I did want to say: I remember reading a post here where a yorkie bit the vet, and even though the vet said it was no big deal, she got a letter in the mail later from a goverment agency notifying her that her dog had been put on a "biters" list and that after x many bites the dog could be confiscated, etc.

Not saying this to be a total downer, just now that you know she might bite the vet, you should be careful to avoid a situation where she may fail. You may want to practice putting a soft muzzle on her for vet visits, or contact your vet and ask what they would do if she did bite someone. You may also want to consider her behavior at groomers, etc.
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:39 PM   #15
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Oh, I did want to say: I remember reading a post here where a yorkie bit the vet, and even though the vet said it was no big deal, she got a letter in the mail later from a goverment agency notifying her that her dog had been put on a "biters" list and that after x many bites the dog could be confiscated, etc.

Not saying this to be a total downer, just now that you know she might bite the vet, you should be careful to avoid a situation where she may fail. You may want to practice putting a soft muzzle on her for vet visits, or contact your vet and ask what they would do if she did bite someone. You may also want to consider her behavior at groomers, etc.
You would think a Vet would understand fear biters and take it as part of her or his job that it could happen and learn to handle a dog of this kind with better respect and understanding.

Rather sad on that vets part.

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