intense behaviour needs intence responce
 

while little yorkies may not need firmer training .what happens if you have a 10 stone rotty who is very dominant and aggressive and would hurt somebody ,do you think this owner has the time to do the slowly slowly approach or would cesars method work quicker and be just what the dog needs and wants to be balanced and know its true place

Trigger not on a gun is a clinical term for what sets a dog off and we do not know why.. if only they spoke words.

JL

How about a 130 pound guard breed. bent on biting someone. Yes we did and yes we do and yes he is doing better. Slow is best rammy can get you bit. Quick is wrong on a dog with is not wired right or chemically imbalacne and you do not know until it is to late. Better slow and watch for indicators.
Yes not breed specific yet again not needed a big dog is a big dog and breed prejudice need not be a part of this conversation. Works for all breeds for chis to pits to airdales to saints

JL

Actually I KNOW what a trigger is and I know what a bridge is :)

I am curious, how old was this dog when you acquired her?

A 130 lb. guard dog bent on biting someone is a prime example of a irresponsible dog owner. That situation is what gives certain breeds of dogs bad reputations.

She came to me after one owner and with in the time it takes to rewire a brain so under three. She was still a puppy.
So you know dogs mature physically at one socially at two and mentally at three but when wiring is broke it broke. Oh and we had a relapse right at three that crushed the brain ok mad mush out of it mentally, so we rewired into four.
Bridge is that which you use to prolong a behavior so a keep going you got it right until the end and reward.

JL

NO there lays the biggest problem in all of this. It is too easy to slap the owners with the blame..
Ok hang on...yup you bet the owners need to soicalize and train and all the good things for dogs but what if it is gene pool.... I know you do not like me talking science but there is a study I am watching on tests being done that follow gentic fear marks and most aggression is fear in sevearl purebreed dogs lines..yes I offer my girl.
Lines of dogs have these markers running through them and if you do not know you can not do an end run around it until it is to late. So just like LP or LS or hip dysplaxi ok that is not splet right and spell check does not like it either. You have to breed it out...No way am I blaming breeders for that which is just starting to be understood. This is why understanding the science is so important. I also know you hate it when I say it but CM is old science he does not get the genetics or the chemical end he blames it on the owners...easy out.
It is far from easy.
JL

Please speak in plain English and in specifics. Exactly what happened to this dog before she came to you and what happened to to her that made her relapse.

If her brain was crushed and was mad mush, she'd be a dead doggie. Can you please just explain what happened to the dog and what Cesar Milan had to do with it?

You STILL haven't answered one direct question.

You are couldn't be more wrong. Owners ARE to blame. They are solely responsible for their dogs. If they can't handle them then the dog deserves someone who can. Plain and simple -- owners are 100% responsible for their dogs and the actions of their dogs.

The thread has gotten way off topic. Back to Cesar Milan and your dog. Exactly what did Cesar Milan do to affect this dog? Did he train the dog prior to you owning her? Did the owner mis-use some of his methods out of ignorance? Please let's stay right on topic -- which is Cesar.....

OK I do not know what happend to her before she came to me.....If only.
What happened to her she crashed so eyes rolled back in head brain shuts down fear takes over she loose any idea of where she is at. brain is mush.. gone she not home........ You tell me why. If we had it all figured out we be singing but it is over simply to blame me as a lazy owner or her as dominate when she and I are neither nor ever have been although she and I have been labeled both and proven many wrong.
This girl will drop at full run at a trigger on a down on a good day and it happened with practice not an alpha roll... you roll her she will fight till one of us is dead....

Now last part CM trains from rough. He slices and dices and wham bam thank you zap aloha roll make brains mush all done.
But if he tries that on a dog with a brain not wired right you get....dead.
He does not take time to consider is that what he does can and does cause harm...hello he was been cited.....He does not understand genetics or aggression or chemical aggression nor do you and advising anyone to use his method is only going to get someone bit and he has. When working with a dog that can and does bit you do not allow them the chance to rehearse that behavior you do everything possible to have it not happen.

He uses flooding..ohh I have tried that ...no a brain that does not run right should not be flooded...yuck....thing is you can not tell if a brain runs right until you try it so best bet is just not too. When we can do it different by desensitization.

I tried it for three heart beats in a seminar that was to help my girl...that did not last long as I stopped it. I say we paid the fall out was all that night....ever seen a dog in a night mare panic attack.. or joy oh bliss...not.She wakes up and does not clue in where she is you get bit.

JL

You CANNOT make a brain mushy -- I thought we were supposed to be scientific. So it sounds like you used the alpha roll in an inappropriate manner and your dog reacted negatively. You are unjustly blaming Cesar Milan and his methods. It sounds like you made a bad judgement call in training this dog and Cesar is a scape goat.

No we as owners are not always at fault for our dogs action if it is the way they came out of the womb and the fact that you and Ceser do not understand this is why he is so dangerous.
This is bang on topic. just not what you want which is over simple wrongly applied science. You want an easy out Behaviour in animals is just as messed up as that in humans.
There are dogs that are bi polar just like humans it is the humans parents fault.. nope it genetics.


JL

She had a mental break down just like a human one. All we know is we had a triggering event what caused it is still not nor every will be fully understood. The pieces of the puzzle are smoke, alcohol and loud sound... after that we do not know. And no I do not drink or smoke so do not blame me.
Ceser is not a scape goat his methods are faulty and he did not invent them he just uses bad science and wrongly applies them.
No alpha roll ever happened in my house.

JL

Ok, I am beginning to understand where you are coming from. You tried an alpha roll on a dog and it didn't work. You tried other ideas gleaned from Cesar and they didn't work for this particular dog.

That doesn't make all of his methods wrong for all dogs. It simply means that his methods didn't work for this particular dog.

One of the most valuable pieces of training information I gleaned was once again from a horse trainer who told me..... If it doesn't work try something else :D Don't keep doing the same thing.

I don't understand the above quote if alpha rolls never happened.

Cesar's methods may not work for you, but many of them do work for a multitude of dog owners. It is just as inappropriate for you to say that ALL of Cesar's methods are wrong as it would be for me to say that all Pitt Bulls are vicious. I had a recent experience with two pitt bulls trying to attack my horses, but I blame stupid owners, not the dogs.

Yup got it.. SO trigger she see, she runs to it I can say down and she will drop to a down. now it is out of contexted.

Ok there is a differnts from that which is an out of control dog and yes what happened to you is out of control and that is owner based...oh I never use breeds cause you see put you see bad breed bad dog...why I am not using breed.

Now when you are dealing with what is truly a red zone dog...it not a out of control dog those the I can get her to stop on a down on good days. A true red zone one if we must use that term is one who is like my girl wiring gone and you do not know what will pop out. It takes great managment skills to not set her up ti fail.

Oh multi dog family here....and we use Pat McConnells stuff..
Prime example...Two breeding females.... Cm says let them figt it out...owner lets dog fight it out ..we now have two very big very expenive show dogs fighting it out about to wreak show careers...yeah.... I do not think it should have happened but you know CM said CM is right.. One dog close to loosing eye and stitches,,yeah way smart....

Me one dog in one dog out if in the same are you there you split you teach good dog speak skills.

JL

Ok I need to pee and I need four hours ofd sleep got13 mouths to handle inthe morning. Wait it is.

JL

Joy, there are many very knowledgeable people here at YorkieTalk that have handled many breeds and many problems. You aren't the only one who has dealt with serious dog issues. But you still haven't given any first hand and/or personal reasons that you are so determined to defame Cesar Milan. All you have been willing to do is to site why others don't like him.

If you would treat your fellow YTers with courtesy and respect you would be treated in kind. Accept the fact that many of us (me included) think that Cesar has some good ideas --I don't care if he invented them or not, he is presenting them in an entertaining and understandable way.


I can't speak for his television show because I have never ever seen an entire episode. I don't watch TV -- don't own one. I do understand that if what he presented wasn't interesting people wouldn't watch. I don't deny the man his right to make a living, any more than I would deny you that same right.

Have you read Cesar's Way? If you haven't, then you should, with an open mind. That doesn't mean that you have to agree with him, but perhaps you would have a better understanding of where he is coming from.

Don't blame Cesar for the "letting them fight it out" 'cause that is a common idiotic idea. I've been there, done that with two breeding bitches who are now kept separated 24/7. This was before I had ever heard of Cesar Milan so I can't blame him. I blame myself for my ignorance and I violated my own training rules because all three of us got hurt and the girls were NOT relaxed after I was able to break up the fight.

It is a common idiotic belief promoted by CM and it was quoted by the owner as such that makes it his fault. He teaches it .It makes him resposible for the fall out. No wait he off makeing money no fall out...get it. If people use what he says he is reposible...teach gentle no one get hurt.
That is my bug bare right there why teach rough when gentle works and no dogs get hurt....casue it not as fast or as splash no does it sell.
Wrong science again wrongly appiled hurts as long as it a dog it ok.. I am saying no it is not. If it breaths and lives and thinks why is it ok to hurt it mentally or phsycally to train it.
And profitting from it makes him no better then a puppymiller.

JL

I did not through this as best I could not take it personal where others did.
If my mind was not open as of right now we be looking at I say three dead dogs. You have asumed that whaat I have learned is soully from my current dogs but those in the past taught me too.
When someone goes out and does a half baked job on studing dogs in a garbage dump when it been done and right.. I am not following that.
Dogs are not in the true wild, pack animals there is not enough food to go around .What he saw is resource gaurding that is not pack behaviour.
Why would I spend money on something that I feel is abusive and feed someone. Again that be like going to a puppy store and buying a puppy and not getting the mom and dad out tooo. I have not doubt that there are oters here that have dogs and work with them and get awy with some of his stuff.

What I am saying is we do not know until it is to late, why go there at all.
When there are viable human options not using adversives.
Epecailly when he does not even use the adversives in the right manner and the most effective way.
I like science as I like reality and I rather train with than fancy.

JL

Your theory is just as wrong as me saying that the Jack Daniels Distillery is responsible for alcoholics. We all make choices, live with them and then we need to be accountable for the results of those decisions. Playing the blame game isn't acceptable when we are dealing with living beings. Right, Wrong or Indifferent. Cesar didn't force the previous owner to do something stupid. The owner did that on his own.

If we would all just quit trying to blame someone else for our problems and spend that effort on trying to find a solution a lot more problems could be solved. You cannot, do not, and will never know how many dogs are helped and/or hurt by Cesar or ANY trainer. Any training method can be harmful. I cannot imagine not disciplining a dog, horse, child, etc., for improper behavior -- especially behavior that is dangerous. That is blatant abuse - I have seen the results of indifference working in an elementary school. It is heart breaking.

What exactly do you mean by science? You talk of mushy brains and zoning out. Those aren't particularly scientific terms. You can't have it both ways, either you are one of us regular folk, or you use some mystery science. I have never ever heard of a scientist who couldn't be specific and give details. So please explain what you mean by science. Specifically as in...
1)
2)
3)

CM does not allow the AHA in to his site.
Every other show using animals allows them.
Why does he not?
If he has not a thing to hide, if he thinks he is so great, why is he hiding and what is he afraid of?
Goes both ways you want me to tell all but you let him hide.
Now do you get why I not telling all.
He wants to hide and cover up.
Let him actually lay it all and I mean all if it on the table.(I already have it here posted from a long time ago.)
Also all the cutting room floor stuff too.
All of it in the right order it happened.
Those owners not allowed to talk do to gag orders if his metod failed.
Let AHA in to watch and other papered trainers.

He can not. He is afraid and fear is not a place to live.

JL

Ok I have in other threads and you get upset with me for quoting but for me to pull out them darn big words and spell them right is not easy.
Again it be easy to do it by phone and explain.
What part of chemiaclly imbalacne and bi polar is not scince.
Dogs are not wolf nor are they pack animals...science
Using advesrives increases the likley hood of aggressive acts back.
Flooding is not inticated in the use of dogs with fear aggression.
Most aggression is fear based. not dominace based
need more. Karen overall , dodson stuff, coppinger stuff, dunbar stuff, pryor, skinner.
Science
He does not use correct science at all or it is wrongly applied. fantasy

JL

Cesar Milan is NOT a member of YT and he is NOT defaming you or your training methods. You have yet to give any specifics only generalities. You have no idea about what is on his cutting room floor or the right order or any of the things that you allude to. This is nothing more than rumors and heresay. What PERSONAL first hand knowledge do you have of him and his operations?

You are talking in circles again. I can handle big words :) and if I don't know a definition, I can use a dictionary if you can spell the words correctly. Dogs ARE pack animals -- if you have more than one and observe their interactions you will clearly see that there is an alpha and subordinates. Prove your statement -- most aggression is fear based..... if you take every single aggressive dog in the world can you prove that most of the aggression is fear based? There is a very real problem in being credible when you throw out opinion as fact.

You still don't get it -- what needs to happen is that you refrain from starting threads with the specific purpose of defaming specific individuals.

It is not defaming when it is public knowledge. That it is not your knowledge is not my fault. Go read what I have posted and the link at the start of this thread. AHA is public so are the rulings against him.

There is no alluding. it right there, all there you just do not want to see it.
Just like people for the longest time would not see millers.

What personal first hand knowledge do you have that he does not?
Have you ever trained with him?
Do you know anyone that was?
Do you know anyone that works with the dogs now he has?
Have you heard first hand accounts of events around his training?

JL

Defaming who... him...again public knowledge. go look.

There you go I can not spell then.
And dogs are not pack animals -coppinger... I going to say red you are going to say blue and you are not going to look past what you think you already know
There is a fliud system at work in dogs and in most human intreaction. I have posted this before. I posted the science behind it and get told that I need to not quote..how would you like me to prove it. cause it works like you do for ceser.... it does not always work.. the other way does.
And I am accused of not having an open mind.

JL