serious biting from my little guy causing serious issues!

[Bhikku]

Bhikku said that Cesar Milan's dogs are not afraid of him. Actually the dogs on the show that he trains do show major stress signals. They obey him because they fear him or fear the consequences. I prefer training that helps my dog to trust me, not fear me.

I've seen dogs that he is working on for someone else fear him, but his own dogs do not act fearful to me, and I've worked with a lot of fearful dogs. Of course a problem dog which is being taken up for acting out is going to be stressed - the expectations for his behavior are changing. But I think that the stress sometimes displayed by the dogs he works with is a temporary transition. My dog shows major stress signals when he's being isolated or crated away from me, and right now he's afraid I'll leave him when I go away, but that doesn't mean he'll always be afraid I'll leave him.

Also this subject of dominance is taken out of context. A dog is not submissive or dominant. A dog can be confident or not confidence, however submission & dominance are fluid.

I understand that. What I mean by dominant is that the dog (seems to be) acting dominant with her family. A submissive dog, in my experience, will not "charge" anyone. A submissive dog will practice avoidance and attack only if restrained or cornered. I don't know all the details of this situation, so I don't know what the brother's actual trigger is. Without knowing that, I can't know whether it's dominant or submissive behavior. I can only guess based on what the OP said.

Dogs also know that we are not dogs and while they can see us as leaders and look to us for cues, they do not see us as "alpha" anything.

Being alpha is being the leader. If your dog is giving behavioral cues that he considers you his leader and is subordinate to you, congrats, you're alpha! (According to the theory, anyway.) When someone lets their dog snarl over the food bowl and attack incoming vistors and bark at strangers on the street, they are exhibiting alpha behaviors. It's up to the master/trainer to correct. Otherwise your dog will not take your cues and will make up his own rules and you won't like it.

Dog body language is complicated and difficult to understand. Dogs understand other dogs. We can understand them if we practice enough and read enough and train enough.

I guess I have just been working with dangerous/fearful/aggressive dogs so long it seems like a second language at this point. It is probably harder for people with less experience. Since the OP is bewildered about the dog's violent outbursts, I'm sure she doesn't know enough to pick up the signals prior to his attacks.

What methods? Though positive reinforcement (which I suggest the OP find a trainer to help with specific methods) you can train the dog that the child is a good thing - that being in the room with the child and being calm means they get treats. It's called conditioning. Only a trainer can look at the situation and say "OK the dog bites when the child shrieks" - then you desensitize the dog to that noise.

She said the dog isn't just biting the kid, he's biting everyone else in her family too.

The only problem I have with positive conditioning (and you have to consider that positive conditioning is the training I use primarily with my dogs whenever possible) is that for very intelligent dogs, it's an easy way to manipulate the system. So, say, you condition the dog that he gets treats whenever he doesn't bite people. And initially, it works.

Eventually the master/trainer will begin to phase out those treats, and the dog thinks, "Hey, I used to get rewarded constantly for being good!" So he relapses and shows aggression. The master/trainer goes back to square one, thinking he/she moved too quickly. The treats come back. Amazing! "Hey, I can use negative behavior to regulate my rewards!" And for some dogs, it becomes a perpetuating cycle.

I had a particularly sharp Siberian Husky in college that did this for months. Finally, I had to take up a different tactical approach - isolation training. It was amazing how much more quickly she responded to the loss of attention versus the introduction of food rewards.

It sounds like the OP has a dog that has no confidence and doesn't know what to do about the situation so he bites. I would be willing to bet there are some warning signals first before he bites, but without training the OP won't be clued into what they are.

Like I said, I wouldn't be able to tell if it was a dominant or fearful aggression unless I saw the dog in action. I just made a suggestion based on what the OP said. I would really like more details about the situation, personally. The original post didn't give much information. What constitutes "making a commotion"? Where on the boy does the dog bite? Who else has been bitten? There are a lot of unexplained variables here.

Very few dogs are actually "dominant aggressive" And they aren't like this dog who obviously has triggers that set him off, which to me says fear.

I have personally seen a lot of dominant aggressive dogs. There are a lot more fearful aggressive, definitely, but if I had to venture a guess, the ratio would probably be 3 dominant to 7 fearful in the dogs that I've worked with and trained.

This sounds like one specific behavior with a specific trigger. If she had said the dog was biting over food, over resources like the couch, whenever people pet him, etc. that is different. A dominant aggressive dog would not be "so sweet otherwise" Something is setting him off. She has to figure out what that is.

Agreed.

To the OP: I'm sorry this has gotten out of hand. We only want what is best for your dog. Please seek out a trainer who can come to your home and address this immediately. Some steps can be taken right away and others will need to be done on a daily basis for months, but there is hope.

Ditto. But I don't think the discussion has gotten out of hand (off-topic, maybe ) we just have different training philosophies. Not surprising, considering there's thousands of people in this forum and all of them raise/train their dogs differently.

In short, I agree with Erin and YorkieMother. Seek a behavioral specialist. I'm sure it will help. Whatever training methods you choose, be consistent!!

[YorkieMother]

[QUOTE=Erin;2339942]JL - I made that number up. The point I was trying to make is that when people give me anecdotal stories about how they alpha rolled their dog and it was fine, their dog is the exception - or possibly they just don't recognize the signs.

QUOTE]
Erin
I know that and I know you know that I know that and I also understand what you were up to. we are all together on the same page.
I know full well why you said it... I just not in a soft petal mood today so I saying it all very clearly advesrives are wrong and so are alpha rolls no way do they not affect a realationship.

Bhikku
Ceser dogs are in full shut down and do not think anything but what that man puts in thier heads and that is a fact. There is no joy ,no exprestions and no love and no lights on in any of those dogs they just are a piece of fluff that is soulless.

As for the dog biting everyone and just who and were and how was it been taught or shown not to and the rules for laying on of teeth and by what methods.
What are the triggers, are there any ? what is the look of the dog when it happens is it plyy mode or not?
You can teach it to chew things other then you by being nice to it and just cause it chewing on someone does not mean it is aggression. Aggression is an attack it not just rough play and I not sure the poster or you would know the differnts.
As for working with dogs that are aggressive that be ME and Erin to.
I be the one trained and read up on it to do so everyone of those autors I posted in the previous post work aggresion and there is still never any need to work from rough with an aggressive dog as it only teaches them to be more rough.
As for phasing out treats that can and is done by ramdom reinforcement with other then food and food and rather soon after the establishing of the behaviour you want to see happen so that on randomd it becomes a firm behaviour as it never knows when or if a treat comes and it works harder longer and better for it.
You have not really looked into the proper use of reinforcement work and are again saying folk tails and wrong sceince. Have a look again at the list of autrs an the ones by Karen pryor and Melissa or pat millar will set you straight on the right way to use reinforcerers

JL

[YorkieMother]

Biscuits, not rolls: why you should never use the "alpha roll" (01-JUL-06) Whole Dog Journal

Biscuits, not rolls: why you should never use the "alpha roll" (and what to do instead).(TRAINING)
Source: Whole Dog Journal
Publication Date: 01-JUL-06

Teddy's owners were distraught as they explained to me on the phone why they had called. Their veterinarian had told them that their nine-week-old Golden Retriever puppy was "dominant aggressive" because he was biting their hands. He had advised them to alpha-roll the pup every time he tried to bite or otherwise challenge their authority. They'd been following the vet's instructions for a week, and Teddy's aggression was getting seriously worse. They feared they would have to euthanize their pup. We made an emergency same-day appointment for a behavior consultation.

I found Teddy to be a somewhat assertive puppy, who enjoyed actively exploring the world with his mouth, as normal puppies do. Like many assertive, excitable pups, Teddy also got increasingly aroused when his owners protested his needle-sharp-toothed explorations on their skin. The more they protested, the more excited (and mouthier) he got. Hence the veterinarian's all-too-common misdiagnosis of "dominance aggression" and his woefully inappropriate prescription of alpha-rolling the pup to put him in his place.

Rolling the dice

The alpha-roll consists of physically rolling a dog onto his side or back and holding him there until he stops resisting or struggling, supposedly submitting to your superior authority.

Popularized by the monks of New Skete in their dog-training books (such as How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend) in the 1980s, the technique is a truly unfortunate and dangerous interpretation of a normal canine social behavior. When approached by a higher-status dog, a lower-ranking member of the pack may first avert and lower his head and shoulders, then voluntarily lie down on the ground and perhaps roll onto his side or back as an appeasement or deference gesture. Typically, when an appeasement gesture is used, the higher-ranking canine has no need to assert himself by forcibly flattening the lower-ranking dog to the ground; the subordinate is already there!

Job Michael Evans, one of the New Skete monks responsible for writing How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend, later left the order, and subsequently stated he regretted including the now-controversial technique in the book. While he didn't go as far as to say the alpha roll was ineffective or inappropriate, he did say he felt it wasn't safe for use by the general public.

Modern behavior professionals who are well-educated in the science of behavior and learning go much further, denouncing the risky technique along with other methods based in faulty dominance theory.

The most obvious negative consequence of techniques that encourage owners to physically overpower and intimidate their canine companions is the possibility of scaring or coercing the dog into defending himself. He reacts aggressively in return, angering or frightening his owner, who often responds by escalating his own level of violence. Before you know it, the relationship between the two is seriously, sometimes irreparably, damaged.

Despite compelling evidence that physical intimidation does more harm than good, some trainers today (indeed, some very high-profile ones) are stubbornly attached to the forced roll-over, cloaking it in new age terms and turning a blind eye to the damage done to relationships between dogs and their humans in the process.

Questions of appropriateness aside, it takes someone skilled in handling dogs to be able to alpha-roll a dog without significant risk to human safety--which is at least in part why one television show where the technique is frequently used includes a "Don't try this at home"-style disclaimer. It's also why trainers who employ methods such as the alpha roll talk about being bitten as "part of the job," while those who use more appropriate, non-confrontational approaches are more likely to keep their skins intact.

[YorkieMother]

Canine as a second language

Again, the alpha roll is supposed to mimic the behavior of the "top dog" in a pack, and send the message, "I'm the boss of you!" But one huge error in alpha-roll logic is the belief that we can successfully pretend to be dogs in our interactions with our canine companions. Dogs know we're not dogs, and any attempt on our part to mimic their language is doomed to failure.

Dogs are masters at speaking and reading canine body language. Their communications to each other are often subtle and nuanced, a furry ballet designed to keep peace in the pack. Our efforts to use canine body communications are oafish in comparison - and I imagine that our dogs are alternately amused, confused, nonplussed, and terrified by our clumsy attempts to speak their language.

Violence occurs between dogs within established social groups when the communication system breaks down; it's a sign of an unhealthy pack relationship. Ethology studies from the 1970s and 1980s suggest that canine social structure holds together because appeasement behaviors are offered by subordinate members, not because higher-ranking members aggressively demand subservience. Instead, successful pack leaders were observed to calmly control the good stuff--an approach frequently suggested by today's modern, positive trainers as a much safer, more appropriate, and effective method for creating a harmonious mixed-species social group.

In her book, Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals, Dr. Karen Overall agrees, stating, "The behavior of the lower status individuals, not the higher ranking one, is what determines the relative hierarchical rank. Truly high-ranking animals are tolerant of lower-ranking ones."

Methods that encourage dogs to offer deference behaviors, and then reward them for it, are a much closer approximation of actual pack behavior--and easier for us to emulate successfully--than any application of force. Use biscuits (training treats), not (alpha) rolls!

Establishing leadership

The Monks, and others like them, didn't have it all wrong. It is important that your dog perceive his humans as higher-ranking member of your collective multi-species social group. It is far better, safer, and ultimately more effective, however, to accomplish this through offered deference rather than forced dominance.

In his text, Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training, Volume Two: Etiology and Assessment of Behavior Problems, Steven R. Lindsay, a dog behavior consultant in Philadelphia, says, "A wise lupine leader avoids unnecessary dominance contests and assertions of authority."

Lindsay also cites a 1988 study (E. Fonberg, "Dominance and Aggression"), noting that dominance that is established without resorting to aggression appears to be more stable than dominance that is maintained by constant vigilance and displays of strength.

There is a multitude of ways to establish appropriate social hierarchy without resorting to aggression. No, you don't have to go through all doorways first, nor do you have to eat before your dog does. You can simply wait for and/or encourage your dog to offer deference behaviors in order to make good stuff happen, while at the same time you make sure that pushy behavior doesn't result in him getting good stuff.

Your dog's driving ambition in life is to get good stuff. Some owners and trainers express concern that teaching the dog that he can get you to click! and give him a treat by offering certain behaviors elevates his status because he's controlling you. In reality, a dog's psychological response to deference behaviors appears to so hardwired that if a dog repeatedly performs them, he becomes deferent. It's not just a role he's playing, like an actor. If he does deference, he is deferent. He can't help it.

Deference behaviors you can use to your relationship advantage include:

* Wait at the door. Dog sits and waits to go through a door, even a wide open one, until you give him permission to move forward (good stuff = go out and have fun).

* Wait for your dinner. Dog sits and waits to eat his meal until you give him permission to eat (good stuff = eat food!).

* Wait to get in car. Dogs sits and waits outside car while door is opened, hatchback is lifted, or tailgate lowered, until you give him permission to jump in (good stuff = go somewhere in the car and have fun).

* Wait to get out of the car. Dog sits and waits in vehicle while car door is opened, hatchback is lifted, or tailgate lowered, until you give him permission to jump out (good stuff = get out of car and have fun).

* Wait to get out of kennel, crate, or exercise pen. (Good stuff = get out of kennel, crate, or pen and get attention and have fun.)

* Sit for your leash. Dog sits calmly to go out for a walk while leash is attached to collar (good stuff = go for walk).

* Ask to be petted. Dog sits and waits politely at your feet to be petted rather than jumping up, pawing, or nudging you for attention (good stuff = petting and attention).

* Ask for permission to jump on sofa or bed. Dog sits and waits to be invited onto furniture instead of jumping up uninvited (good stuff = lying on soft, comfortable surface and getting attention).

In each case, the dog learns to offer deference behavior in order to get the desired "good stuff" result. Appropriate (deference) behavior moves him closer to his goal; inappropriate behavior makes the good stuff go away (see "Oops, You Lose!" below).

Happy endings

That phone call from Teddy's owners came almost 10 years ago, early in my career as a professional behavior consultant. Although I had handled many aggressive dogs during the 20 years I worked at the Marin Humane Society, I had not yet worked with a lot of aggression-modification cases professionally. I agreed to see Teddy, with the understanding that I would refer him to someone more experienced if I felt I wasn't capable of handling his case.

He turned out to be one of the simplest aggression cases I've ever worked with. He just needed his people to stop frightening him with their unpredictable eruptions of violence so he could stop having to defend himself.

We began training with clicks and treats. Teddy loved the clicker game, and caught on very quickly to the concept that a "click!" equals "treat"--and even better, that he could make the click! happen by offering one of a growing list of desirable behaviors. We used a tether to restrain Teddy during training so if he did do inappropriate mouthing we could simply say "Oops!" and step out of reach of his nasty-sharp baby teeth.

In the very first session his arousal and biting lessened noticeably. By the time I returned for the second, the mouthing problem was 95 percent resolved, Teddy's owners were tearfully grateful, and we happily moved on with his basic training.

Since Teddy, I've lost count of the number of "aggression" cases I've handled where the alpha roll was the clear and present cause of a dog's increasing aggression. A frightening number of puppy/dog owners are still counseled by their veterinarians, trainers, other animal professionals, and well-intentioned friends to alpha roll their uncooperative canines.

It's always better to get your dog to voluntarily buy into your desired behaviors than to try to force him. That's the challenge, the joy, and the excitement of positive training. As the supposedly more intelligent species, we should be able to figure out how to get dogs to want to do what we want, including being deferent to us, without the use of force. Biscuits, not rolls!

Pat Miller, CPDT, is WDJ's Training Editor. Miller lives in Hagerstown, Maryland, site of her Peaceable Paws training center. For book purchasing or contact information, see "Resources," page 24.

[YorkieMother]

WHAT YOU CAN DO ...

* Watch dogs who are interacting so you can analyze any "belly up" behavior you might see. Confirm for yourself that it's usually either offered by the more subordinate dog or performed as part of mutually agreeable play, and if one dog forces another to the ground it's likely accompanied by strong conflict and tension.

* Ask your dog to practice deference behaviors as part of your daily routine together.

* Share this article with friends, acquaintances, and animal care professionals who suggest to you that the alpha roll is an appropriate behavior modification tool for your--or any--dog.

Oops, You Lose!

Just as a "click!" marks the behavior that earned a reward, a marker such as "Oops!" can tell your dog which behavior lost him the opportunity for a reward. Often called a "no reward marker" (NRM), "Oops!" means "Too bad! That behavior didn't earn a reward; try something else!"

In fact, it might be more appropriately (and sometimes is) called a "punishment marker." When we say, "Oops!" and remove the treat from view, we're using negative punishment, one of the four principles of operant conditioning. Negative punishment is a relatively benign form of punishment--no physical force or harsh corrections--in which the dog's behavior makes the good stuff go away.

Because dogs want good stuff to happen, they tend to avoid doing behaviors that consistently make good stuff go away. Many, if not most, positive trainers use negative punishment as a gentle way to let dogs known when a behavior causes a negative consequence -when the dog has made a "wrong" behavior choice.

When using "Oops," remember that it's simply a cue, intended to give the dog information, not intimidate him into stopping the behavior. I use "Oops!" because it's a difficult word to say in an angry tone--it always comes out cheerful and a little silly. Here's an example of how I might use it:

I'm teaching a dog to "Wait!" until I give him permission to eat his dinner (a good deference behavior!). The dog is on my left side, food bowl is in my right hand. I lower the bowl a few inches, and if he doesn't get up, I click!, raise the bowl back up, and feed a treat. I just communicated to him that he will be rewarded if he remains in the sit position as his bowl moves closer to the floor.

I lower the bowl again, a few inches more than last time. If he remains sitting, I click!, raise the bowl, and give him a treat. If he gets up, I say "Oops!" the instant his doggie rear leaves the ground, and lift up the bowl. I just communicated to him that getting up from the sit position makes the good stuff go away.

I continue this until I can set the bowl on the floor without him moving. After he's done that several times, I will tell him he can eat, and encourage him to get up and get the good stuff. As the benevolent high-ranking member, I control the good stuff, and out of the goodness of my heart I'll be happy to share it with appropriately deferent members of my social group.

Last three posts are an article in its whole wrote by Pat miller and is found on line free from Whole dog journal. All of the methods she suggested will help a dog that bites either in play or just cause no one taught it not to and it uses it teeth to talk and play like any normal dog.It also works on just genral training as well.

JL

[Bhikku]

Ceser dogs are in full shut down and do not think anything but what that man puts in thier heads and that is a fact. There is no joy ,no exprestions and no love and no lights on in any of those dogs they just are a piece of fluff that is soulless.

I have not seen any dog he's worked with that looked like a soulless piece of fluff.

You can teach it to chew things other then you by being nice to it and just cause it chewing on someone does not mean it is aggression. Aggression is an attack it not just rough play and I not sure the poster or you would know the differnts.

I take offense to that. I've worked with dogs for half of my life and I most certainly do know the difference between mouthing and an aggressive attack.

As for working with dogs that are aggressive that be ME and Erin to.
I be the one trained and read up on it to do so everyone of those autors I posted in the previous post work aggresion and there is still never any need to work from rough with an aggressive dog as it only teaches them to be more rough.

If I wanted to, I could roll out a whole list of research that I've done into the subject as well, I just prefer to rely on extensive personal experience with training large, "difficult" breeds of dog.

As for phasing out treats that can and is done by ramdom reinforcement with other then food and food and rather soon after the establishing of the behaviour you want to see happen so that on randomd it becomes a firm behaviour as it never knows when or if a treat comes and it works harder longer and better for it.

Or give up and stop working for it at all.

You have not really looked into the proper use of reinforcement work and are again saying folk tails and wrong sceince.

To be blunt, you honestly don't know anything about me, and if you had read my posts thoroughly, you'd realize that I use positive reinforcement for the bulk of my training. There are just some individual dogs who call for a different approach in certain circumstances. I don't go around beating or alpha-rolling my dogs. I just don't think the alpha dog theory is bunk, and I don't think soft training always works. We just have a difference of opinion.

Have a look again at the list of autrs an the ones by Karen pryor and Melissa or pat millar will set you straight on the right way to use reinforcerers

I have an extensive list of my own authors and I think I'd prefer to continue training my dogs in my own way, but thanks. Perhaps I'll look into them at some point.

[pebstheyorkie]

My little girl was a biter all her 15 years. As a pup it was cute teething, but it never stopped. It does't seem very common with Yorkies, but Pebbles was a biter.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by pebstheyorkie

My little girl was a biter all her 15 years. As a pup it was cute teething, but it never stopped. It does't seem very common with Yorkies, but Pebbles was a biter.

Now this needs a little clearification.

Biter as in how... mine bits in play on my hand. It more a nibble and gentle but she can also bite as in get in my face and I wil nail you.

So need more on biter. It the how, whys, when, what she looks like.

Play looks differnt that honest I kill you and I have seen that.
Sounds does not really come into play unless it is the I will kill you bark.

Sometimes play can become out of hand and turn way to rough.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Bhikku

I have an extensive list of my own authors and I think I'd prefer to continue training my dogs in my own way, but thanks. Perhaps I'll look into them at some point.

I be intrested in your list and I even share my seminar and schooling stuff... opps nope can not share that but I can tell you where I went.
My actually list is tons longer but I short formed it here.

JL

[Erin]

Being alpha is being the leader. If your dog is giving behavioral cues that he considers you his leader and is subordinate to you, congrats, you're alpha! (According to the theory, anyway.) When someone lets their dog snarl over the food bowl and attack incoming vistors and bark at strangers on the street, they are exhibiting alpha behaviors. It's up to the master/trainer to correct. Otherwise your dog will not take your cues and will make up his own rules and you won't like it.

But being a leader is not dominating your dog. And again, dogs know we are not dogs.

Also, the alpha dog would not exhibit any of those behaviors. My neighbor's lab is a great example of an alpha dog. He rarely if ever barks. He is gentle, loving, obedient. If another dog barks at him he either turns and walks away or he sets his paw ever so gently on their back, as if to say "enough from you" He has the confidence of 10 dogs. That is a true "alpha" dog.

What I try to do is build confidence through training. You WANT your dog to be confident. You also want them to look to you to set the rules, I agree with that, but I disagree about how to get there. I want my dog to respect and trust me, to obey because he wants to not just because I say so. That is the difference with positive training.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Erin

Being alpha is being the leader. If your dog is giving behavioral cues that he considers you his leader and is subordinate to you, congrats, you're alpha! (According to the theory, anyway.) When someone lets their dog snarl over the food bowl and attack incoming vistors and bark at strangers on the street, they are exhibiting alpha behaviors. It's up to the master/trainer to correct. Otherwise your dog will not take your cues and will make up his own rules and you won't like it.

But being a leader is not dominating your dog. And again, dogs know we are not dogs.

Also, the alpha dog would not exhibit any of those behaviors. My neighbor's lab is a great example of an alpha dog. He rarely if ever barks. He is gentle, loving, obedient. If another dog barks at him he either turns and walks away or he sets his paw ever so gently on their back, as if to say "enough from you" He has the confidence of 10 dogs. That is a true "alpha" dog.

What I try to do is build confidence through training. You WANT your dog to be confident. You also want them to look to you to set the rules, I agree with that, but I disagree about how to get there. I want my dog to respect and trust me, to obey because he wants to not just because I say so. That is the difference with positive training.

Well said... Erin... Well said.
Alpha or what many think are alphas are fearful dogs being fearful and true alphas have nothing to prove and are calm confident and very respectful of everyone and everything. They have no need to bully, grr or be nasty they rule from calm.

JL