Why Breed?

[Tashasmom]

oh and your welcome for the compliment.

[yorkieK9trainer]

So, we agree to disagree?

I didn't mean to offend you, I thought I was doing quite the opposite honestly. I just know that there are very many novice people that pass by this forum and look at one or two things and move on thinking they are educated. I didn't want this to be read and have the words on it be god w/o both sides being stated.

So, shake?

[elegntorchid]

You may be producing quality pups...just not quality Yorkies.

- if you call yourself a breeder and an ethical one that is producing not just quality pups, but quality Yorkies, you should be able to make it to a ring-any ring (that's why they were created) at least once or twice to say truly that you are producing QUALITY YORKIES. If not, then all you are most likely producing are just like you said, "quality pups".



This kind of statement is why people who breed without showing feel that those who show think that their dogs are the only "good" or quality dogs. Many don't even try to go to a ring, I like the life my yorkie has, she has run of the house, she sleeps on my bed, she plays with my children, she gives me hugs and kisses, she even rolls in the grass if she wants. At the end of the day she is just happy. I think she is a beautiful yorkie with a wonderful personality and more love then she is big. With all that, does that make her not a quality yorkie, I don't think so.....
At least if I choose to breed my yorkie and let her beautiful, healthy puppies move on to new homes it is because I love who she is and want to pass that on, not because she didn't stack up in a ring. Those puppies are born being scrutinized and sent on their way if they don't measure up. And funny but these yorkies still cost an armload of money for dogs that didn't have enough quality to make it in the ring, and sold under no breeding contracts.
Am I saying that showing or striving for a dog that can show is wrong, by no means. What I am saying is that just because someone else is not running for a ring and chooses to give their yorkie a different kind of life, does not mean that yorkie is not of quality.
That would be like some saying your daughter (don't know if you have one) wasn't a model, so she must not be pretty enough so she should stop while she is ahead. And maybe in her quiet beauty she never even thought or tried to be a model....................

[Tashasmom]

Originally Posted by yorkieK9trainer

So, we agree to disagree?

I didn't mean to offend you, I thought I was doing quite the opposite honestly. I just know that there are very many novice people that pass by this forum and look at one or two things and move on thinking they are educated. I didn't want this to be read and have the words on it be god w/o both sides being stated.

So, shake?

I am happy to shake. I didn't mean to offend you either or anyone. I guess I get so worked up because I have put SO much time into this. I even took some classes for vet assistant. I have over two years of reading, learning, talking to other breeders and I've just now got my first litter on the ground. I didn't rush into this. I didn't wake up one day and say "i want to make money so I'll breed". It's been my whole life dream to breed, to help animals, to just be with animals. I have put my all in to this. And I KNOW I have so much more to learn.
This may sound stupid and corny..but my whole life I have always felt comfortable around animals. I"m not always comfortable around people. Large groups of people do make me nervous. I admit I don't always feel confident. But when it comes to animals..i totally feel confident. I guess cause i don't feel like i'm being judged.
I dont' know I hope i didn't make myself sound like a blooming recluse idiot lol..
either way..i'm glad that this is settled..

[yorkieK9trainer]

Tashasmom- No, actually you didn't sound like an idiot at all. And no need to tell me your qualifications or be on the defense. It's OBVIOUS you are well off on the learning tip and do indeed know quite a bit and know that you still have more to learn! We all do and those that can admit that they don't know everything are the ones that are first to help one another! You sound wonderful and like I said remember that my threads weren't directed directly at you, you just happened to be an example in a bigger lesson.
I'd love to hear more about your fur babies! If you do decide to breed, again please let us know how it goes! I wish you the best.


Elgntorchid- please DO NOT confuse a "show yorkie" as a conformation yorkie! There are MANY other AKC/UKC/CKC (pick any number of kennel clubs!) show events that Yorkshire Terriers compete in! When I stated before that you should put your Yorkie in the ring (any ring) under multiple judges to help you deligate whether or not you have a good eye to promote the breed by what you present and that you would most likely (as far as match making and genetics go it's best to find a mentor for that-the judge is just your start.) be producing good quality Yorkies and not just good quality dogs. Many people produce good quality dogs! I dare say that you could go to any number of puppy mills and find a Yorkie puppy that passes (even into maturity) a number of health inspections (good on x-rays, good eyes, nice bite...). I guarantee it! I've had many clients of mine come through who had felt that they needed to "rescue" a yorkie (or any breed) from " " puppy mill and only one out of those many turned up w/ health problems. They got lucky. But good dogs were produced from a puppy mill of all things! I DON'T PROMOTE PUPPY MILLS! (fyi)
So, to promote this breed and continue w/ these dogs that we love so very much, I do think it's important to be "inspected" by a few organizational judges. Me personally? I choose AKC Obedience. Look up my latest Yorkie: Little Nemo the Black Gigas, you can find his obedience scores and such. He's got his CD and CDX (he actually belongs to my parents back in Illinois, I just "stole" him for a week here and a week there until I decided to title him-now I'm getting my own little girl from Hungary in four weeks! *yay*) and that's enough for me. I know he doesn't have the best coat (out of standard) but he has EVERYTHING else going for him! He's proven he can work, he's of sound structure and temperment and not only do I know it, but the spectators (perspective puppy buyers-if we decided to breed him) the judges look forward to seeing more of him and that word spreads, more fond happy memories to cherish outside of the home-it's just really nice to see that such a little dog can work. That it's not just a dog in the Toy group!
Even though we probably won't breed hip, he's been x-rayed (hips/knees/elbows) his eyes have been checked, his hearing has been checked, and his heart. We've put him on the DNA books...that's a bit extreme, but I still think that breeding is extreme and you should have a proven dog to go through w/ it.

-Breeding better dogs vs. breeding better Yorkies-

[elegntorchid]

Did I come across as if I had dislike for dog shows? I watch animal planet all the time, and the dog shows that air on it.
Again I have nothing against show dogs or owners/breeders placing dogs in any show. Just as I have nothing against those who do not. I think most of the people who are on this site come here for the purpose of learning more about the breed, be it because they have an interest in breeding or just want the information to better raise the puppy that they have. But I have noticed that many times someone posts any interest in breeding or the fact that they are breeding some people come in teeth showing. I don't think that is right. Why can someone not just say "before I began to breed, I did this or that" and not come across as if they are standing over them wagging a finger saying shame shame. Maybe that is really what they are looking for, information on if they should or should not venture into breeding and what comes with that choice. Those who have decided to breed (not saying they should or should not have), are not here to be scolded, just to continue to obtain information. There is always something more to learn. All I am saying is just because someone has not actually placed a dog in a show does not mean the yorkie is less than. And many don't mind if they have a yorkie that is not up to standard, they just love the one they have. And that is a blessing.....

[SnowWa]

TashasMom - You're right also - this is silly! So happy we agree!!

My sister came over this evening - and had to put up with my two dogs and me -- she said she had fun - I hope so!!!!

Carol Jean

[yorkieK9trainer]

elegntorchid (I think I keep butchering your name, if so I promise to get it right the next time!)

That's sorta how puppy mills begin.
"I think I have a fabulous dog! I think I should breed him/her! (puppies come) Wow, how lovely! I think I should keep one for a playmate! A year later (repeat of process above)." - and no, I'm not calling everyone here that fits the above description a overseer of a puppy mill!

Of course we all love our Yorkies and think that every household should have one just like him/her! I know I do! lol, but I also know that I want this breed to still be around when my great grand kids have their kids and I want those dogs to be every bit like my current Yorkies in body, mind and health- the very reasons we love them as much as we do and then some! To ensure that that's going to be the case, we've got to be responsible about this and do our research. Showing is not the only means in which perspective breeders can do this, it's just readily available to most and is a great start!

And I am all about new breeders getting their name out there if they think they truely have something special! That world has loads of people in it and their ranks are highly guarded (understandably so), and I think it's a shame that more breeders - who presumably aren't in it for the money (since there's no real money to be made!) - don't offer MORE advice versus critisism to those who are trying their best to establish a well thought out and organized breeding program. Even if all you intend to breed is one female and one male!

[elegntorchid]

don't worry about the name, I am not.
So see after all of that we actually did agree....

[YorkieRose]

If you check out breeders, the most expensive pets come from NON-show breeders. I have yet to hear of any of my fellow club members ask $5000 for a pet..let alone $10,000.

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

If you check out breeders, the most expensive pets come from NON-show breeders. I have yet to hear of any of my fellow club members ask $5000 for a pet..let alone $10,000.

You are so right...anyone wondering how true this is only has to go see Jeff Dane's awful yorkie website....

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by sylvan

Just things to consider...

"Up to 10 million healthy animals are killed in U.S. pounds and shelters every year. The killing could easily be prevented by spaying and neutering.
Euthanasia is the single largest cause of death for dogs in the U.S. Each year 27 million of the animals are born. Five to ten million we classify as "surplus" and kill. That's about one million per month. These numbers do not include the millions of dead dogs whose bodies we scrape off the streets, or the hundreds of thousands of abandoned, severely neglected or abused ones who never make it to our shelters to be counted and killed. The five to ten million figure represents those we "must" kill because they are unwanted.
Most of these animals are young and healthy; in fact, it is estimated that a majority are less than one year of age. The problem is simple: we have too many dogs. Too many for the too few homes available. The solution we have opted for is to kill the extras. This solution has been considered acceptable by default, as though there were no other way to control the crisis. And we spend over $1 billion every year destroying "man's best friend."
Why is this happening in the United States today? The number one biggest contributor to the problem is the backyard breeder not the puppy mills.
This is a name that has become unpopular and no one wants to admit they are a backyard breeder. Many people do not even realize they are part of the problem. This is what I need to address in this post. The only way to stop the needless killing of dogs is to stop the needless breeding of them.
Every breed of dog recognized by the AKC has a written standard, a blueprint of what the dog should look like and act like. These standards were written so that all would know what a quality example of the breed is and strive to produce dogs that meet or exceed the standard in health, temperament and appearance. To be sure you are breeding dogs that meet these standards, your dogs must be judged by people who have a lifetime of experience among the breed."

Stacy - Your post hit the nail on the head and with the popularity of the Yorkie moving to 3rd place soon more of them will be on death row. Supply and Demand. Some people think very few Yorkies come through rescue but that is just not true and if you look at what happened to the Golden's, Lab's, Cockers, Poodles (the list could go on) and how many of them ended up in the pounds when their popularity ranking went up. The Yorkie will be no different I have always felt that if a breeder had to have a warranty like a car manufacturer does and a buy back option you would see the number of dogs being breed go down and the quality go up. The public demands through laws that a car manufacturer is held accountable for an average of 3 years but they do not demand something that is a living creature (a few states have puppy lemon laws) so we are moving in that direction. The manufacturer has to pay to have the car fixed or buy it back and fix it themselves before they can sell it as a used car. Because of these laws cars have gotten better and better with less costs going into warranty and more costs going into research and development for a better car in the long run. Once we held manufacturers feet to the fire and they realized it was costing them millions of dollars they started to produce cars that were safer, more reliable and better fuel mileage just to name a few of the improvements. I think top notch breeders are already doing this. How many BYB even offer a 1 year guarantee or even a 3 month guarantee? What about defective parts on a dog? I am sure you can see where I am going with this and most people would say, but then the cost of the dogs will go up and I can't afford to pay for a better quality pet. Well what most people don't understand is they are already paying over 1 billion dollars a year to hide our pet over populations problem in taxes at the shelters. Well, you know the old saying, you can pay me now or you can pay me later but we are all paying for it one way or another. It would also be interesting to see how much $$$ is spent by all the rescue organizations (public and private) in this country and add this to the 1 billion dollar tab. It really is interesting that tax payers have to pick up the tab for this business. What if the breeders were responsible from start to finish or at least a certain amount of time and had to foot the bill. Most business's today have some responsibility when their products are bought by the public and are defective, even if it is a $1.00 toy.

These comments are just food for thought on a Sunday morning.

[Tashasmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

If you check out breeders, the most expensive pets come from NON-show breeders. I have yet to hear of any of my fellow club members ask $5000 for a pet..let alone $10,000.

If I paid that much for an animal she better know how to do some dishes lol..

[lksdolls]

Originally Posted by yorkieK9trainer

"We could go back and forth all day long on this. I agree with some of what you are saying and some I do not. I respect you for backing up what you beleive in just as I ask for respect for backing up what I beleive.
I'm not going to be so close minded to say you will never change my mind about showing..cause I could. I just know that it is of no importance to me what a Judge thinks of my dogs. What is important to me is that I know I am producing quality pups..and it's important to me that the people that purchase pups from me feel the same.
I have nothing more to say on this matter. I come here to learn and to help those that need it. I hope to make a few friends along the way.."

I hope you aren't talking to me? If so, my only arguement would be (and I do respect your opinions, I just don't need to like it. And because of that, I should probably keep my mouth shut! ...will do.)
Closing words:
You may be producing quality pups...just not quality Yorkies.

- if you call yourself a breeder and an ethical one that is producing not just quality pups, but quality Yorkies, you should be able to make it to a ring-any ring (that's why they were created) at least once or twice to say truely that you are producing QUALITY YORKIES. If not, then all you are most likely producing are just like you said, "quality pups".

Well, my open mouth-insert foot disease is kicking in again. A better statement would be Show Quality Yorkies. Quality is in the eyes of the beholder. I produce (manufacture) dolls, I raise Yorkies, not by a politically reviewed Judges standard in a beauty contest, but rather by temperament, social skills, playful, loving and healthy, true characteristics and allowing them to be real dogs, not caged animals. Yorkies were originally breed to be ratters. It's in their nature but show me when a "ring judge" has ever considered that. The show ring is nothing more than a social standing beauty contest, period, and a political one at that. Rings were created for bragging rights by rich folk so they can charge more for "what they produce." And just because "they produce" offspring from a Show Quality Yorkie, does not mean that you will get a Show Quality Yorkie Pup, or even a quality pup, if that's what you want. I'm sure there are some who purchase a Yorkie that they think would make it in any ring even if they have no intensions of showing because they can afford it and can brag about how much it cost them. I'm not trying to offend anyone but I'm getting the impression from several posts that there is a definite social standing superiority among us. JMO

[CC's]

I have refrained from adding my 2 pennies for quite a while, so I guess I'll risk getting sent to the corner now..........

Those that think a show dog is just a beauty queen should look closer.

The purpose of showing is to judge the best, healthy, most to the standard breeding animals.

A good judge feels the dog from nose to tail. They check for shape and structure of the chest, proper angles to the legs and shoulders, check the eyes, bite, spine and muscle quality and coat condition. All of these things can tell health.

The dogs go around the ring and up and down in front of the judge for a reason. A bad structure will not move correctly. They can see bad fronts and even LP just by watching movement going to and from.

Unsocialized, unhappy dogs don't show well. Judges look for the alert happy, confident temperament of the yorkie.

This notion that show dogs are just caged, unhappy, mistreated dogs is just wrong. They may not sleep in bed with owners while growing coat (they get satin pillows instead) and maybe they don't get to do the rub a dub on carpet after their bath. They are however pampered, exercised, socialized, and well cared for.
Also show breeders charge no more and probably less than many, many pet breeders.

To keep implying show dogs are almost abused is IMO just an attack on something someone doesn't do or doesn't understand.

Show breeders are the ones mainly keeping the Yorkie looking like a yorkie. Its also them that do the work and pay the dues for all the adds seen selling "CH lines" 3 generations ago.

The show world isn't perfect either, but what is?

IMO show breeders are the ones being bashed here often, not the other way around.