That one is for you Graven....I forgot to click the quick reply.....ooops

Goood Nite....thanks for the link! cant wait to see........

oh that is Abigail she is 5 weeks old well almost :D She likes to help fold socks ;)

She's a sweetie pie! Is she from a litter you had?? a doll baby!
It was good to meet ya......I am now done with my shift.....yeahhhhh!
I cant wait to hear more about miss abigail!....nite :aimeeyork

Oh now you get to go home... have a good night :) it is very good to meet you ;)

Yes she is one of my babies :D

This thread has really gotten big in a couple days.

So what she is saying is that in Germany they can never keep their Biewers purebred, because they have so many health problems occurring? She is also saying that when they are mostly Biewer breeding, when they live most are still dying at 7-8 years?

I am not that bright, and I think she was saying that...is...That they got Biewers from Black and Tan yorkies who threw the pie bald gene, once this happened and they figured that they could get this colored pup from 2 black and tan ones they mated them again. So, after a time of breeding the now known Biewer pups for so long, they realized that their was a flaw in the continuous breeding of the 2 dogs with this pie bald gene, so they "the people in which started and proved" Biewers, went back to the drawing board and figured out that if we threw in a black and tan yorkie every once in a whole, they will live longer and have little to no health problems...Now that was the way I interpreted that whole conversation..Like, I said I was a little slow, don't know a darn thing about birfing no yorkies...So you might be right!!! :confused:

I am waiting confirmation from my breeder who only breeds Biewer to Biewer, but it is my understanding that he has 5 lines of direct Biewer descendants, he does not mix with standard yorkshires and he does not have puppies that die at 7-8 years. New breeds are created from changes (ie mutations) from old breeds. In fact, the Yorkie itself is descended that way, something to ponder, hmmmmmmmm?????

This has all been very interesting AND Confusing! (I've not heard of a biewer before YT)

questions: If Biewers are originally from yorkies, why are they not still considered Yorkies?? or why don't some want them classified as yorkies?

What is the difference between a biewer and a tri-color yorkie? Does anyone have a pic of a Tri?

If a TRUE Biewers is mated w/ a Standard Yorkie, isn't it still TRUE since a biewer IS from 2 standard yorkies originally???????

:confused: :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes: :confused: :confused:

I think this is what all the confusion is about....
Originally the Biewers were a genetic mistake or defect, Mr.Biewer decided he loved them and wanted to see if he could recreate it. He did. Usually when there is a genetic mistake, the dog would be spayed/neutered to avoid them passing the mistake on. All yorkies are descended from other terriers...if the breed stayed the same regardless how many differences happened, no new breeds would ever be formed and it would be impossible to have conformation shows (dogs shown to a standard). IMHO, a Biewer is descended from standard Yorkies but is it's own entity.

Thanks! That makes a bit more sense to me. Is there an 'official' name being applied for them now? Something like...'Biewer Terrier'...

They are gorgeous dogs. :)

Yes, this is what she is saying... When you are line breeding you have to bring in new lines and since their are not that many lines if you continue to line breed as in any breed you are going to start having problems... Someday this breed will hopefully be able to stand on it's own but you have to remember what all is involved in line breeding. ( I know you have the this knowledge... :D) Sit back and reflect on line breeding and this will all make sense. This is such a young breed... :p She states that in the 3rd to 5th generation is when they have seen the problems start to develop if a new line isn't started. I can't pretend to know all that is involved here. That is one of the reason's of traveling to Germany this Oct. But until then I have every intention to follow the German's lead on breeding this lovely little dog.

Good for you Sue, you seem very knowlegable and your Biewers are gorgous!

I wish I could say I read every post but I didnt. I got tired around page 6.
I would like to say something though.
When I first became interested in yorkies, I did quite a bit of research. Maybe didnt concentrate on the right stuff but I did :) There is alot to know and one will never know it all. Im convinced of that.

I came across the most intriguing dogs called Biewers from Germany.......tri colored, all symetrical, so pretty and sooooooo expensive too. I started looking at them and trying to find info. I almost purchased a breeding pair from Germany, imported from a lady in Canada, who I must say was very nice.
But in my research I found a website, a club, who in the US were breeding into the Biewer with YORKIES with puppies up for purchase.......calling them........Foundation 1.........Foundation 2.....etc........based on their genetics, whether they produced tri color or not the first breeding.
After much consideration I decided against these beautiful dogs because of the information I found.
WHY?
I had started raising yorkshire terriers. I found I wasnt real fond of breeds being intermingled/mixed breeds so I decided to stick with what I was beginning to know. I raise some CKC yorkies but dont like the fact CKC register mix breed dogs. Biewers are not yorkies and I felt with the language barrier and what I found out in research I just couldnt feel confident.
Yorkshire terriers have party yorkies, chocolates etc......all which are mutations, some call them, but they are from a breed I was beginning to know.
So I felt if I wanted to do something like this I could do it with the yorkie breed I could easily research and had a bit of understanding of them.
Not saying anyone here would decieve me but I just plain didnt understand it all, and decided to say with my beloved American Yorkshire terriers and if I wanted to get some experimental coloring in the future I could do it all the same with my babies.
Biewers are just beautiful and I can understand the fuss about them.
Congrats on you all that have the real thing.......your babies are sure to be a success!

I have to ask again. Can you or anyone name a new breed that was started strickly from a fault in the standard of it's original breed? New breeds are usually intentionally created mixing breeds aren't they?

The English Bulldog is a genetic mutation...the original
Elizebethan Bulldog with achondroplastic dwarfism

The real point is the Biewers are here. In order to gain AKC recognition, it must be decided by the "powers that be" whether to allow them to be shown and recognized as Yorkies or as their own breed. If they are to be judged as Yorkies, then it will not matter whether they are Biewer/Biewer or Biewer/Yorkie. If they are to be judged in their own "breed" then it will. I may have my opinion but surely no one making the decision cares what I think....lol.

Hi Lori. Actually there is numerous breeds in the makeup of the Yorkie way back in the beginning.

True, I stand corrected. The genetic mutations were in breeding them down to yorkie current size.

That is so true. I reread 'The Complete Yorkshire Terrier Book' last night to refresh my memory about the History. The history of the Yorkie was never agreed upon, there are several theories. It mentioned Maltese being back there too :eek: .

History is not agreed upon. Possible Maltese was thrown out by someone, not Wildweir but another to account for possible coat texture. It is kind of a guess like we guess on the Biewer. This could be a possibility, although a proper Yorkie is a much better coat, but who knows for sure. It would account for the tri, since Maltese carry the piebald gene, but if Maltese was in our breed that far back, all of us would be seeing some tri. Or maybe not since I do not ever breed soft coats. Didn't realize until Sue's post that Biewers were created from 2 black soft coats anyway. Once again this is why there is a standard.

The English Bulldog was bred with a working purpose and it was long before the AKC was founded. It's not the same as trying to establish or create a new breed out of the faulty color that is already designated against the standard. It would be the same thing if someone named Smith wanted to breed for white German Shephards and call them Smiths or Smith Shephards.

If the Yorkie didn't already come in the same Tri Colors that disqualify it from the standard this whole new breed thing might be more acceptable. I would think YTCA would have lots to say about this.

ARe there any other breeds that were created by traits that make it disqualified in it's original AKC breed?

In my gallery and avatar, you will see a pic of an adult black, white and tan dog with a topknot. That is Remi, my AKC reg. parti marked male. There might be other pics of him but if not, e-mail me and I will send more than you could even want from 6 weeks til now..He looks like the Biewers IMO with his markings, etc. He has sired a gorgeous litter with my Biewer female and there is a male in that litter that will knock your sox off. The little female is 3'7" and is the spitting image of her Biewer mom. The male is just like his daddy.
I have not checked my gallery-there are 3 pages- so there might be more pics of him....

HERE is REMI that gorgeous boy :love:...and a Parti at 10 weeks....

I have a folder of Rini's Gang...so I'm posting this for her

So, Sue, would that make my Remi partis and Chrystel's Biewers a valuable tool in introducing another blood line? I mean, they wouldn't have to worry about a splitter cause the puppies are already marked properly. That is an interesting concept and one I had nt considered..Do you think Nancy might know the nitty-gritty of this??

I am curious, how did you get AKC to register a parti since that is not an acceptable color by AKC or YTCA?
Julie

Julie, I really had no problem at all. I sent 4 pics, mom and dad's pedigrees, and his application, and left the colors and markings boxes vacant. The color committee considered the info and he was registered. I had a friend who does peds do a 5 gen one for him with his pic on it..I LOVE it!!!
Parti is not considered a color but markings..it means his coat is basically white with readily visibly other color(S). His colors are black and tan with parti as the markings..

And, Villette yes that puppy is Remi...Isn't he sweet?

YES HE is :rose: I thought it was him as a baby... but didn't want to say it unless I was completely sure and it's one of my FAVORITE Pictures of your kids Rini....He is a total doll ...I mean ...LOOK at that face on him !

Thanks for the response. So, mom and dad were correctly marked/colored AKC yorkies? Has there been any other tri-color puppies born in the pedigree that you know of? Wouldn't both parents have to be carrying the white gene for your puppy to be marked this way? Remi is cute, BTW.
Julie

I just love the colors and they are such pretty pups. I can't wait to see them in the show rings down here.