In talking privately with some of the Biewer breeders, I believe they are serious about promoting the Biewer as its own breed. I agree that Yorkshire should be dropped from the name. Cher, you spoke on another post on breed type. Type is what distinguishes a yorkie from another breed of dog. The yorkie and the biewer do not resemble each other at all.

The Biewer is here, and I can't deny I would love one as a pet. I think they are adorable. But they are not the yorkie as we know it. That said, I would be more than happy to help the serious biewer breeders in their quest to establish the biewer as a breed in the US. The problem I see are those "breeders" who are out to make a fast buck buy mixing the breeds and not trying to establish a legitimate stud book.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think their are serious breeders and those breeding tri-colors, but telling the unsuspecting buyer they are yorkies and can be shown in AKC. I know this because a breeder in CA sold some tri-color/biewer "yorkies" and told the buyers they could be shown in AKC competition. When they were entered at an AKC Sanctioned Match, a yorkie breeder/judge refused to judge them on lack of merit and not meeting the breed standard. The exhibitors were angry at the judge, but should have been angry at the breeder.

I think you will find there are more serious yorkie breeders willing to help the serious Biewer Terrier breeders establish their own breed, rather than trying to make it a variety of the Yorkshire Terrier.
Julie
Jo-Nel, Reg'd. Yorkies

[QUOTE=Stormy]
You're in NY?! Where?? I need to squeeze these little pups! If you're close enough, we need to get a yorkie/biewer meet-up planned! Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous!

I am wondering something.. What if a pic of a Biewer were in say, a coloring book. The Yorkie colors were colored in..Then, same pic and Biewer colors put in. Wonder how different they would look? I have thought about that for a long time!! Boy, tells you how scientific my brain is, huh?? Or, even, a parti thrown into the mix...That is another consideration..

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question...?

When we hear a statement that a Biewer looks nothing like a Yorkie I am wondering if that in part is because it is not easy to look at black, white and tan and imagine the exact same animal in black and tan or blue and gold..
My question is..is it possible our eyes are deceiving us because of the coloration???
Like a birthday party where every single food is the wrong color-green mashed potatoes, black ice cream and so on. Would the potatoes still look like potatoes or some other green veggie all mashed up...Gawsh, that certainly was a scientific example, huh? But, that actually was a study done years ago..

An Outsiders Opinion
 

OK, as an outsider to this ‘situation,’ let me offer some advice-take it or leave it.
I’m not a Biewer owner/breeder/expert. I don’t know jack squat about them except that they’re beautiful and what I’ve read here. But anyone can see what’s happening here:

NO ONE on this board can possibly know EVERYTHING about this breed. It’s a new breed, not from here, not officially recognized by any U.S. associations, from what I have gathered. EVERYONE here is still very much in the learning process regarding these little guys-- that being said, no one person here holds all the answers to the breed. From what I can tell, because of it’s “newness” here, how they should be handled from a Biewer breeder’s perspective has been left wide open for interpretation—because no standards or anything else have been set in stone here. There seem to be various opinions of those learning about the breed and it’s origin/background that are conflicting. EVER breeder, regardless of breed, should feel they are doing the best job possible with their dogs and everyone is not going agree 100% of the time. It seems like what has happened here is some believe so strongly either in what they do or against what others do, a lot of criticism of others’ practices have risen-- feelings have gotten hurt and people have been offended. IMO, at this point in the breed’s history here in this country, no one person should be looking at another and condemning what they are doing, but instead they should be learning from each other since Biewer breeders are so few and far between as it currently stands.

Again, if it isn’t the AKC standards-set Yorkshire Terrier, don’t ask me. I don’t know if they are Yorkies, Biewers, mixes WHATEVER! I think that learning more about them is something that interests us all but not if it is going to come in the form of “You’re wrong, I’m right” and no “this states this so you’re wrong, I’m right.” Let me ask you this, if they are no way WHATSOEVER related to Yorkies (and again, I have NO CLUE) why are they even being discussed in such detail on this forum…isn’t this YORKIEtalk?

I’m not trying to offend anyone or step on any toes, but it is sickening to see so many breeders with so much experience and such great knowledge to put down and questioned by other good breeders. This can be said for all sides. PLEASE give it a rest and be civil!

By the way, this is the grossest birthday party I've ever heard of! ;)

In a coloring book, perhaps you could not tell. But in reality there apprears to be a difference in coat texture besides the obvious coloring. I have not seen a Biewer with a straight coat, to the ground, with full face furnishings. Most of the pictures I have seen have coats 3/4 of the way to the floor. It is not the smooth silk texture that the yorkie is noted for. The heads are similar, but it is not the head that makes a yorkie a yorkie. You can have a black wooly yorkie, but that does not make it correct to the standard. It is the feel of coolness when you touch a yorkie with correct texture that separates it from a soft coated yorkie. Hard to discribe unless you have actually felt the difference. It's just not all in the colors.
Julie
Jo-Nel, Reg'd

OK..now I understand. We have to look beyond color. Color is a general perception, Type is what we should look at. Like it was mentioned earlier reference post#11, explains Type and how important that is over color; not only in Biewers and the Standard (b/g) Yorkie but also with the Tri Colored Yorkies that are registered with the AKC. If I understood post #11 correctly, Breeds are developed by breeding 'Type to Type'. Color not being the only focus.

When a True Biewer is in full show coat, is the coat oiled and wrapped like the Yorkies? Just curious as I have never seen one in wrappers. If not, is it possible that the reason their coat is not the long flowing silk that we see on True Yorkies?

As a new owner of a pet Biewer directly in from Germany.....I agree with this post. Lots to be discussed, but can it be done in a friendly pleasant manner ? :confused: :confused: :confused:

From my experience I have not had to wrap any coats yet. They are growing nicely I have 1 out of my 5 girls that I'd says coat is NOT correct. Texture is off, and there is some wave. Out of the 6 I have Dice is the one with the hard silk which is heavier lays straight, doesn't mat, white and blue shine feels most like human hair. The other 4 girls (full sisters) have silky coats, white and blue shine, yet finer strands, occasional mats that comb out easily.

Here is the thread with more pics. "Hope" is the one on the far left is the one that has the least desired coat IMO. She and her sister will be my first breeding Dice to sire both litters (if he is 1yr by the time of their 2nd heat which is in April).

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...hlight=Biewers

If you look you can see the there is a 'Type' to the Biewer. Now I've seen Tri Yorkies only in pics, and IMO in comparing to 2 pics. The overall types are completely different. Meaning we can't assume based on comparing pic of each. We have to take a group of each for comparison. That shows the 'Type' is established, it's more than random markings/coloring. Owning both breeds, I can vouch, personalities are extremely different.

Boy my head is spinning! I don't even know which thread this is. I have been reading all these posts over the last few days about Biewers, coat color, texture, size, similarites, breeding practices etc. and no one can agree. This is why it is so important to keep these two great breeds apart. By now after 20 odd years, they are not the same breed. There still is very many variables that all the breeders have to work out, that will come in time, as long as we are all on the same page. I do not know if I will ever breed but I have been typing my little fingers off trying to get some hard info on what is acceptable and what is not. I have gotten a few good answers. I will not go into them here. Let's just say, like should be bred to like and leave it at that. I have 2 right now and they are wonderful dogs. I have just gotten my female a few weeks ago. Her coat is somewhat differnt than my male but not that much so I'm thinking that they will have very similar coats which are silky and smooth. I do not let my boys hair grow all the way down, it's messy for a male. I do not wrap, no need, not showing but I do know that it has the ability to hit the floor. It's my choice to keep trimmed. We will in time see how my females will grow. They're body type is a little different too, she's totally square, he's a little longer. He's bigger boned than she is. So this is where the inconsistancy lies with breeders. We should take the best from each and try to devleope something that will knock your socks off! Here's two views of my Archie, ya gotta love that tail!...

WOW Theresa, they are gorgeous....and double wow on that tail !!!! :cool: :cool:

Theresa! Thank you so much! My head is spinning too! So many questions so much to think about. Archie is just beautiful!

Thanks I think I got it...or at least close to it....
I am not sure but I think others here have biewer also- which should be nice for all of you--

They are sooo beautiful! Next on my list! Hummm, and magnolia isn't far from here!

I think that Biewer Terriers look like nice little dogs. They tend to be a little bigger than a Yorkie. I hope someday they do get AKC recognized. I hope breeders breed for level toplines and the Tri-colors. When I was a child my mom and I had a pet Yorkie and my step sister who was older than myself had a Maltese. When she went on vacation my mom watched her Maltese. Well not knowing much about heat cycles and such as our yorkie was only 1 1/yrs. old. She came into heat at some point while the Maltese was visiting and low and behold she started getting bigger! My mom being worried ran her to the vet only to find out she was PG and due anyday! The puppies were adroable. One was all Black with 4 white feet and white tipped tail, the chest hair was brown and the body coat was black. Not like a puppy Yorkie as it stayed that way but more like a nice maltese coat only black. One looked exactly like a yorkie, and the other one was brown, black and white all over. All 3 boys and of course my mom gave them to friends and relatives. I saw all 3 as adults and they pretty much stayed the same coloring as they were when they left our home except the one that looked like a Yorkie his head turned all gold with maturity. The two who did not look like a yorkie had a coat that matted easier than the Yokire silk coat does, and required more grooming time simialr to the Maltese coats. Having had this expericne I am positive that Beiwers came down from at least these two breeds. It amazed me how two of them looked just like what is now called Beiwers. Oh and all the ears stood up and we never did anything to make them stand, and my mom never did dock the tails on the two who looked like Bewiers only on the one who looked like the Yorkie. But the Beiwer looking ones were bigger in size than our Yorkie standard, and the Yorkie looking one was 5 lbs.
I also do not think they should have the name Yorkshire in the naming of this new breed, it should have it's own name like Bewier terriers that some have mentioned. This way they will have ther eown merrit and pride of there seperate breed!

Well Gigi, I can't let your statement go about The Biewers being a mix. If you are calling Mr. Biewer a liar than so be it. His history on this dog was that he produced puppies, from two yorkies, with the white gene being predominate, so he further developed it into what is now known as The Biewer with specific colors at specific points. I was not there at his breeding so I can only stand behind what he has said as have all the other German breeders to this date. It is like any other nomally, if you pursue it, you can eventually get what you are looking for. The trick is to get the whole package, not just looks. So I am sure that there will be controversy over The Biewer for many years but the true fanciers and breeders will not let it fade out. We will keep it clean with good lines, and educating the public on the true history...

Germany, like the US, has good registries and bad registries. The only Code of Ethics Biewer breeders should follow is the IBC. The IBC does have a stud book. Finding that there is a paper trail, helps answer some fo the questions I had as well.

I cannot imagine the cussin and discussin the Yorkie when it was initially being developed. Can you, in your wildest dreams, imagine how it would have been if they had had puters?? Mercy me! We might still be trying to decide on the name..LOL

LOL !! You have a point and a funny one at that :)

Villette, I can just see (you know the dogs painted on velvet smoking cigars and playing cards) the breeders sitting around like that and trying to come up with a name. What if they tried to use a few letters from the name of each breed used?? Bet it would look like cuss words..That is why I posted my last message..

It might look like a poorly bred Yorkie, but as I stated on another thread, there is more to a dog that distisguishes type. That is what show exhibitors do is breed for the very best based on the standard. The color/texture is our most important feature. If you look at a Silky, it could be interpreted as a Yorkie. In fact any show exhibitor here will tell you the question we are asked most at shows is "Is that a Yorkie or Silky" but the only thing I would be asked about a Biewer is "If that is a Yorkie, didn't know you had mismarked ones!" As I stated in another thread, there was a puff Chinese Crested excused out of the ring once for looking to much like a Yorkie.

I use to have Brussels Griffon with many champions in the breed to my credit, but saw one at the vet recently that one of the employess showed me and I had to ask if it was a Griff or an Affenpincher. It was a Griff, but it looked like an Affen because it was nosy. So as a former breeder/exhibitor it was hard to tell because this dog was not well bred and did not look like it's breed, which meant it had lost type.

Now if coloring in this book and the Biewer was colored Yorkie colors, what I would say in all honesty is that it was either a Silky or a poorly bred Yorkie.

Well Gigi if you new then what you know now! You apparently created the 1st Biewer's. We could be calling them the GIGI Terrier instead.

If one buys a true Biewer from Germany, the research is done. The dogs have a pedigree that go as far back as a yorkie. As far as I am concerned, the changes in the color are a lack of pigment (a genetic marker or defect, as you will). I do not think they should be judged as Yorkshire Terriers, in fact it would be impossible. However, I did buy mine looking at her top line, her ear set, her weight etc. I think it is not a problem to have two different "breeds" of dogs. There is no indications that the ORIGINAL Biewers from Germany are in reality a mixed breed. Should Mr.Biewer have neutered/spayed that original genetic defect? (Well, that is too late to answer). They are here to stay! Just My Humble Opinion. :confused:

It doesn't matter if Germany keeps a stud book, that is not a recognized registry, even in Germany. The US needs to form it's own club and maintain it's own stud book. They would become part temporarily of the Rare Breeds Club and look forward to being a recognized breed of it's own. So I think we are in accordance here as I also think they should have their own status. I am talking with some Biewer people now and have offered my help in getting this all off the ground.

I am in no way knocking the Biewer as it's own breed. There are some real cute pictures posted here and think they deserve recognition as a breed.

I like that visual. I have Yorkies and I want to measure my progress with teh AKC. If I keep my Biewer as a 'Yorkie' in the eyes of the AKC judge. Then I am not able to measure my Biewer program and improve. Ah ha!! Light bulb just went on.

Irene...I think the Biewer will get a great deal of support as a new breed. It will take time, but with dedicated breeders as we have here on YT, I think it is certainly possible.

I can talk about things I have seen..not much on talking about things I have heard..that can mislead people. As to "non-standard" color puppies, they have been around the Yorkie world forever. I have had the priviledge of being friends with some well respected breeders. I have never missed the opportunity to learn all possible from them.

About 20 yrs ago a show breeder friend of mine went to PA for stud service, two pups resulted. Let me say my friend had no other dogs but Yorkies, no poodles or Maltese in the stud owners home or my friends. The bitch was bred to a well-known champion. The bitch was of the same bloodline, having been bought from the PA breeder.
When the litter of 2 were born..(I lived down the street) I saw them, they were very white.. black on the saddle, but the legs, tips of tails, neck and shoulders were white. Faces were gold and white..and up into the head area.

At 12 weeks my friend invited another club member to see them. She was told the general thinking in this area was to "put down" any pups of non-standard color at birth to avoid these problems. My friend was upset as these pups were normal in health. They were taken to a fun match. There was much discussion and most came to the conclusion the color genes had diluted too much...they should be placed and not bred..which was done. Up until this litter I have seen Yorkie color dilute very light as they mature, but never at birth.
They were small in size, tail docked of course, so the white tip was gone, tiny ears and fiesty Yorkie temperment..infact I groomed them for a few years. Coats were very silky and they had lovely green eye flash.
I do not have photo's of these pups..but they certainly had as much white as many Biewers and Parti's I see photo's of now.
If this occured today I am sure my friend would have requested a DNA test.

To say these pups were not purebred is to say these fine show breeders are careless with stud services or their pedigrees are not accquire..or these pups were a mutation.