Early Spay/Neuter

[Sherry Lynn]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I agreed to never breed Ava or Chai but one of the reasons I felt as comfortable as I did with both their breeders is that they BOTH advised against spaying either of them due to their size and the risks of the surgery not outweighing the benefits. This to me shows that they truly cared about the dogs and not protecting their lines at all costs.

I believe that many of the breeders on here would be able to trust their customers in this respect as well. Most yorkie owners are extremely responsible and can do what it takes to "prevent accidents". It is not that hard. Certainly worth the effort to avoid the pain, risk and expense of this major surgery.

In my opinion that sounds irresponsible...

Cancer or an unexpected pregnancy less risky than a thoughtfully planned spay or neuter by a competent vet???? At any age!

As I read post after post of accidental breedings and breedings by irresponsible owners here on YT, I can't imagine a responsible breeder feeling that way!!

Perhaps you should tell your breeders about YT so they can see for themselves some of these unfortunate incidents and the associated pain, risk and expense.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Cindy~

Please know that I share and understand your passion about the poor animals that are rescued each year and those that are abused and not rescued, those sitting in shelters. I do not question your sense of social responsibility and would politely ask that you not question mine.

I spend countless hours at my local Humane Society and I donate time and money to anti puppymill and animal rights associations. I am a strong animal rights activist and have devoted many hours of pro bono legal work fighting for the rights of abused animals of all kinds. My 18 year old daughter is a vegan and won't even wear shoes with leather in them because she is so concerned about the treatment of ALL animals in our society. She got this way because of growing up being taught about the plight of animals in our country.

Are you as concerned about the treatment of farm animals (pigs who never see the light of day for example) or other animnals that we eat that are "farmed" everyday as you are about the dogs in our society? There is a lot of animal mistreatment and you would never question my sense of social responsibility if you knew me and my work in this regard.

I do not feel that the issue of dog over population gives us the right to hide the truth and leave out important risks when discussing the health of our beloved furbabies. I also do not feel that we should outlaw ALL breeding until the problem is under control. I think we have to exercise common sense and good judgment and educate people with the truth and not with social pressure and falsehoods.

There are many ways to combat pet over population but routine neutering w/o considering the risks and the needs of the individual dog is just wrong imo. The fact is that many people in our society do not value the health and lives of our dogs even 50% as much as they value human life. I am not saying that my dogs' health is as important as my family's but it comes very close. This is not the case with the average American citizen, the average vet or the top veterinary schools. Therefore, their evaluation of the risk vs benefit will naturally be different from mine and from anyone who cares as strongly as I do about my pets.

I place the risks on a higher value scale than they do. This is not wrong and I will not apologize or be made to feel guilty if I have helped educate the members here about the fact that there are two sides to the story and they can make the best decisions when they have all of the facts, not just the politically correct ones.

The fact and has always been that I am not opposed to neutering...I am opposed to vets and others who lie, misrepresent, and tell half truths about the risks and side effect of neutering in the name of their pocketbooks and/or the pet over population problem.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

:....I know that there have been times I've been ready to have your head on a platter when I thought you were too deep into mine...

An actual admission.....we're making headway tonight....

YT Therapy or True Confessions???

Just kidding Misty.. ..if I have ever asked personal questions of you it was related to your breeding program and philosophies, right?

I apologize if you felt my questions were too personal...I was not aware that you felt that way and I am sorry.

[red98vett]

Wow was THIS long...I didn't bother reading the very long posts but I just want to say we see accidental breedings HERE all the time. I don't understand all this debate at ALL.

When peoples opinions are offered...it sure seems like they get questioned over and over on this site.

I personally didn't bother posting here because I didn't want to see anything I said turned into a debate ..I just don't have the energy for all that.

This thread had some good information and it got buried ....it seems that one person is controlling everything said here and I just don't understand why people can't just post their feelings and move on ....letting OTHERS express theirs without questioning every little thing.

sorry...I just had to say that because normally I enjoy hearing from people with experience in these subjects but I couldn't even locate their posts it got so off subject.

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by red98vett

Wow was THIS long...I didn't bother reading the very long posts but I just want to say we see accidental breedings HERE all the time. I don't understand all this debate at ALL.

When peoples opinions are offered...it sure seems like they get questioned over and over on this site.

I personally didn't bother posting here because I didn't want to see anything I said turned into a debate ..I just don't have the energy for all that.

This thread had some good information and it got buried ....it seems that one person is controlling everything said here and I just don't understand why people can't just post their feelings and move on ....letting OTHERS express theirs without questioning every little thing.

sorry...I just had to say that because normally I enjoy hearing from people with experience in these subjects but I couldn't even locate their posts it got so off subject.

I have to agree with Villette.

I'm afraid your point is burried in all the other posts. Like Misty said, accidents happen all the time. As a breeder who puts her heart and soul in every little being I raise there is nothing you can do or say to change my mind. I will s/n all my puppies. As for those reading this post that maybe are unsure, this lengthy conversation is enough to make some end up just as confused when they started. Sometimes you have to let things go. Your point was made when you posted this thread. I personally can't read anymore because it's just too much, I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way.

This is kind of like my post about Biewers. I stated facts. I went off on my own little tangent..learn from my mistake..lololol..just drop it.

[BamaFan121s]

Kim~ I wouldn't classify it as an "admission," I thought it would have been obvious all along...lol.

[rrosenberry]

I agree.. way too long. when I see these, I usually read the first page, skip to the last, to see how off topic things have gotten,and then I miss anything in between that might have been good to know,, But since i saw it was 5+ pages, I avoid it... Make your point,,and state your opinion and let it go..
That's my point and my opinion and now I'm moving on.....

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by rrosenberry

I agree.. way too long. when I see these, I usually read the first page, skip to the last, to see how off topic things have gotten,and then I miss anything in between that might have been good to know,, But since i saw it was 5+ pages, I avoid it... Make your point,,and state your opinion and let it go..
That's my point and my opinion and now I'm moving on.....

LOL...I SO agree

[Sherry Lynn]

Originally Posted by rrosenberry

Make your point,,and state your opinion and let it go..
That's my point and my opinion and now I'm moving on.....

Also, I want to note that I come to this section not because I want to breed, but because I find it facinating to hear from the breeders here. Particularly the ones with years and years of valuable experience and interesting stories to tell about their experiences.

I think we can all agree that you can find ANYTHING you're looking for on the Internet - from pictures of kittens in jars to the harms of using Swifters on you floors. For me it's a no-brainer to trust someone I 'know' who has years of experience over a random biased quote from the Internet.

Please insert my standard disclaimer here.

[luvdorkyyorkies]

Its very clear to me that early s/n has its benefits. I really respect the views on this.
I also understand owners not wanting to do it because its scarey for them to have their babies have the surgery whether early or later. They feel different about the whole thing.
Then theres the s/n contracts, its not a guarantee of no puppies because accidents do happen. I would like to think most people are responsible, I know its not always the case, but I think most people have the very best intentions in regards to their babies.
Im trying to say I see valid points to all your points, research, experience, reasons. This thread is really one to help me make good decisions on what I feel is right and Im sure it does for others too.
Sorry to lengthen this thread with one more post.........but all your posts and views are all valid to me and each and every one of them are respected.
You all love your dogs.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by luvdorkyyorkies

Its very clear to me that early s/n has its benefits. I really respect the views on this.
I also understand owners not wanting to do it because its scarey for them to have their babies have the surgery whether early or later. They feel different about the whole thing.
Then theres the s/n contracts, its not a guarantee of no puppies because accidents do happen. I would like to think most people are responsible, I know its not always the case, but I think most people have the very best intentions in regards to their babies.
Im trying to say I see valid points to all your points, research, experience, reasons. This thread is really one to help me make good decisions on what I feel is right and Im sure it does for others too.
Sorry to lengthen this thread with one more post.........but all your posts and views are all valid to me and each and every one of them are respected.
You all love your dogs.

Kelly~

Thank you! You brought the thread back on topic this morning after so many off topic posts and I appreciate that greatly.

To answer you Villette and Irene, I keep posting BECAUSE I keep learning and some posters ask questions....I asked the breeders two questions and I think only one breeder responded so far. I hope this "discussion" continues. If some people do not feel it is worth their time to read it then that is their choice and they should leave the thread alone. Rhonda has chosen this alternative and I respect her for it. It is her choice. Sherry Lynn only wants to hear what breeders have to say and that is her choice too so she is free to just read breeder's posts. I respect that as well.

I am still researching this subject and just learned after all of these days from a member yesterday that there is an increased risk of parvo in an ESN puppy!! That is huge to me.


I really don't understand the need some members seem to have to take threads off topic with useless posts about whether it is too long or not a worthy issue or whatever!! No one should be able to control this board or even a thread except admin and the mods....we are all free to "move on" whenever we feel the need.

It seems to me that everyone who has posted something negative about this thread is someone who is in favor of ESN and always has been. It SOUNDS like they are simply uncomfortable with hearing that there are some negative pieces to the puzzle. That is unfortunate.

It is obviously of interest to people or it wouldn't have become so lengthy. I would respectfully ask that you not post anymore to this thread if you cannot stay on topic and talk about the pros and cons of ESN.

Thank you.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

The fact and has always been that I am not opposed to neutering...I am opposed to vets and others who lie, misrepresent, and tell half truths about the risks and side effect of neutering in the name of their pocketbooks and/or the pet over population problem.

Kim, I was tired last night so forgive my passion but I am thrilled to read that you are not opposed to neutering.

You are right, I am also against anyone who lies, misrepresents, and tells half truths about anything. I would also agree with you that many vets are in the business for the $$$ but then many doctors are also and each of us must make the final decision on what is right for our animals and ourselves.

Sorry everyone but the following 2 comments are off thread but felt I needed to say them. I am not opposed to breeding if people do their research and do what is right for the dog and the breed and not jump into it.

Yes, since I was spayed at 32 years of age, I am now 56 (Hormonal Replacement Prempro-Pregnant Mare’s urine and what they consider by-product (foals) and my choice of not taking something to make me feel better while killing foals. I am fully aware of many issues of animals beyond dogs and am very active with financial support to these organizations and the legislation that needs to be changed to protect all animals on this planet.

Sorry everyone for being tired last night and changing the course of the thread. and also for adding one more comment.

[Sherry Lynn]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

No one should be able to control this board or even a thread except admin and the mods....

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Cindy~

No problem.....did you ever consider the bio identical hormones??? There are no animal products and compounding pharmacies put together your prescription with the help of your doctor.

I thought I would repost part of my post from #5 since this has been lengthy and I think Dr. Johnson's points were valid and skipped over by many. It also partially answers the question Sherry Lynn raised in post #63 "Why would anyone not want to s/n their dog?" There are a lot of reasons that this thread has pointed out.:In his quote Dr. Jonson was describing how a dog who is spayed prepubecently is different from a dog who is spayed after reaching puperty:

The difference: Well, the overall difference is a completely different dog in terms of bone mass, size, structure, relatively increased resistance to post-spay weight gain, and more complete psychological development which includes elements of loyalty, maternal-instinct-to-protect, feelings of territory and vigilance, etc.. Things that have not "occurred" to puppies at four to five months BUT which occur as an important part of a nesting (post-adolescent) instinct which dogs spayed young never get.

Does this concern anyone?

Also, the statistics show the majority of the problem with pet over population is in rural areas so should our view of ESN be different in suburban or city environments?

[JCarlson2004]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

The question I have to ask is where is your social responsibility. How can anyone sleep at night knowing 5 MILLION dogs and cats are euthanized every year. I have been in the room with dogs piled high in garbage bins, DEAD because of the over population. This includes small dogs which will only get worse because of the popularity of small dogs. I really wish you would go to the pound day after day and see the results of people not neutering their animals and you would understand the passion I feel along with many people in rescue and yes most vets because they understand the real harm of not spaying and neutering and it is an early DEATH.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. I volunteer at an animal shelter and I've seen the horrors of pet over population. I've come home from the shelter MANY time and just sat on the floor in my bedroom and cried my eyes out because of poor innocent dogs being euthanized. It breaks my heart, it truly does.