Protecting lines

[SnowWa]

I have a lot of respect for those of you who are breeders and who work to maintain a wonderful respectable line of Yorkies. This is a lot of work, a lot of expense, and it takes years to do this well.

However - I read YT a lot - and there are a lot of other people (on this site) who breed their pets who aren't as careful about Yorkie standards. And, I am sure that many of these people aren't as knowledgeable about what they should be looking for in their own dog before they breed it. I know they love their pets and think they are wonderful and would love to see a million little duplicates of their wonderful little dogs --- but aren't a lot of people still breeding Yorkies (and other breeds) that shouldn't be bred?

To be more specific - I see very small dogs being bred - very large dogs being bred - Yorkies with short coats and nonstandard color coats being bred, etc. etc. etc.

The excuses I have seen for many of these breedings are: "My sister loves my dog, so I'm going to breed my dog so that she can have one of its pups." "I think it would be fun to have a litter of pups. It would be so educational for my children." "I just love my little Yorkie. I want her to have pups just like her." "My friend has a female and wants to borrow my male to breed."

If anyone ever writes the book about Yorkies that someone mentioned, we should have a chapter called "When is it appropriate to breed your Yorkie?"

I know that a lot of inappropriate breeding is going on - and often for the wrong reasons - and a lot of it is being done by our own members right here on YT.

Do you agree with my thinking that more than most breeds, it is especially important to be careful, knowledgeable, and experienced before you breed a little Yorkie. We certainly read about many heartbreaking results over and over again that should never have happened and could have been avoided.

Again - I have a great deal of respect for those of you who are familiar with the Yorkie breed standards, who breed good examples of this breed, and who
are experienced, knowledgeable, and know what you are doing.

Carol Jean

[BamaFan121s]

Uh-huh...you didn't mention all the "accidents."

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by SnowWa

I have a lot of respect for those of you who are breeders and who work to maintain a wonderful respectable line of Yorkies. This is a lot of work, a lot of expense, and it takes years to do this well.

However - I read YT a lot - and there are a lot of other people (on this site) who breed their pets who aren't as careful about Yorkie standards. And, I am sure that many of these people aren't as knowledgeable about what they should be looking for in their own dog before they breed it. I know they love their pets and think they are wonderful and would love to see a million little duplicates of their wonderful little dogs --- but aren't a lot of people still breeding Yorkies (and other breeds) that shouldn't be bred?

To be more specific - I see very small dogs being bred - very large dogs being bred - Yorkies with short coats and nonstandard color coats being bred, etc. etc. etc.

The excuses I have seen for many of these breedings are: "My sister loves my dog, so I'm going to breed my dog so that she can have one of its pups." "I think it would be fun to have a litter of pups. It would be so educational for my children." "I just love my little Yorkie. I want her to have pups just like her." "My friend has a female and wants to borrow my male to breed."

If anyone ever writes the book about Yorkies that someone mentioned, we should have a chapter called "When is it appropriate to breed your Yorkie?"

I know that a lot of inappropriate breeding is going on - and often for the wrong reasons - and a lot of it is being done by our own members right here on YT.

Do you agree with my thinking that more than most breeds, it is especially important to be careful, knowledgeable, and experienced before you breed a little Yorkie. We certainly read about many heartbreaking results over and over again that should never have happened and could have been avoided.

Again - I have a great deal of respect for those of you who are familiar with the Yorkie breed standards, who breed good examples of this breed, and who
are experienced, knowledgeable, and know what you are doing.

Carol Jean

I agree with you Carol Jean and i can give you some prospective not only from my point of view but also from what I have seen by experience.
First of all, any pups I sell for pet are just that, pet quality and if I don't want it bred that means I don't want the buyer to breed it. That is protecting my lines.
For breeders that show our dogs and hopefully have a good eye for a dog, we are also hopefully carrying those genes to the next generation. As I had said before, not all our pups are show quality and those are sold for pet and are usually pretty nice representatives of the breed and you get certain health guarantees or should. But as a pet quality Yorkie they are not going to contribute to the breed so don't want them bred.
So, let's say you haven't bought a yorkie from a show breeder because you don't like the contracts and want 'just one litter'. So you buy from someone who either registers or not, doesnt' know anything about the lines their dogs have come from and later on breeds it. If you bought a female and want to find a stud you aren't going to get a show breeder to breed your female because of protecting our lines. You go to someone else that bought a male under similar circumstances and the background including health issues are unknown.
Now you might have a litter of puppies from two pet quality parents. The result can go anywhere, where the puppies may be quite nice or end up not looking much like Yorkies at all. Always remember all puppies are cute but it is the adult you will have and the adult is what you have produced in your breeding efforts. Plus you don't know what might show up as a genetic problem. When you are breeding too small especially a female, you are risking her life. I don't use too small for a stud because I don't know if he might be small due to health problems that can come up later and I don't particularly want itty bitty anyway as they are too delicate and aren't what Yorkies are supposed to be. If you have the female, whelping is risky, you can lose your girl, whether she is big or little, puppies and all especially if you don't have the experience and have no mentor to help you.
I have a pet grooming client that bought her unregistered Yorkie from someone who bought a male here, female there. My grooming client loves her little dog dearly, a little female. She ran into a few problems with her at about 5 months and this little Yorkie was diagnosed as having a liver shunt. It isn't too too serious a shunt but this is something the owner will have to deal with for the rest of this Yorkies life. The breeder she got it from owns both the parents of this pup and I told this pet owner she has to tell the breeder about the shunt as these two dogs should not be used for breeding again. The result is that the breeder ignored the whole thing bred them again and produced a litter of 4 pups.
The breeder is sure none of these are going to exhibit shunt. BUt if the parents have produced a shunt puppy, they are carriers, there is a good chance any of these 4 pups and indeed any of the previous litter may carry shunt in their genetics. Now someone else comes along and these 4 puppies are sold for pet, unregistered. Maybe the new owner wants 'just one litter' finds a male and breeds the female or if one of these pups is a male, it is used for their sisters Yorkie to have pups. Guess what can happen? And on it goes
I also know of a small pup, Yorkie/maltese cross. Both breeds, Yorkie and Maltese have been known to have liver shunt. This little cross breed exhibited health problems at about 5 months, diagnosis - liver shunt. What about the rest of that litter and so much for hybrid vigour in crossbreeds.
Liver shunt is a serious genetic problem, there is also Legge perthes. If you are going to breed you darn well better know what these are and if there is any dogs anywhere in any pedigree for either parent that could be carriers of any genetic problem.
Large breed dogs have their problems too most especially hip displasia. Show breeders or at least the reputable ones, will have the parents xrayed and cleared OFA and CERF for hips, eyes, elbows so pups sold even for pet are less risk of having these genetic problems that can show up relatively young. The same argument I just presented in Yorkies also goes for large breeds just different genetic defects can occur and just as serious.

[yorluvr]

Originally Posted by SnowWa

I have a lot of respect for those of you who are breeders and who work to maintain a wonderful respectable line of Yorkies. This is a lot of work, a lot of expense, and it takes years to do this well.

However - I read YT a lot - and there are a lot of other people (on this site) who breed their pets who aren't as careful about Yorkie standards. And, I am sure that many of these people aren't as knowledgeable about what they should be looking for in their own dog before they breed it. I know they love their pets and think they are wonderful and would love to see a million little duplicates of their wonderful little dogs --- but aren't a lot of people still breeding Yorkies (and other breeds) that shouldn't be bred?

To be more specific - I see very small dogs being bred - very large dogs being bred - Yorkies with short coats and nonstandard color coats being bred, etc. etc. etc.

The excuses I have seen for many of these breedings are: "My sister loves my dog, so I'm going to breed my dog so that she can have one of its pups." "I think it would be fun to have a litter of pups. It would be so educational for my children." "I just love my little Yorkie. I want her to have pups just like her." "My friend has a female and wants to borrow my male to breed."

If anyone ever writes the book about Yorkies that someone mentioned, we should have a chapter called "When is it appropriate to breed your Yorkie?"

I know that a lot of inappropriate breeding is going on - and often for the wrong reasons - and a lot of it is being done by our own members right here on YT.

Do you agree with my thinking that more than most breeds, it is especially important to be careful, knowledgeable, and experienced before you breed a little Yorkie. We certainly read about many heartbreaking results over and over again that should never have happened and could have been avoided.

Again - I have a great deal of respect for those of you who are familiar with the Yorkie breed standards, who breed good examples of this breed, and who
are experienced, knowledgeable, and know what you are doing.

Carol Jean

I think Lorraine has covered my sentiments in her post. You are always going to have people who breed for money, or just becuase they can. My males are not at public stud for that very reason. I can stipulate in my contract that all pups must be spayed/neutered, but can I control it? No. Even if the breeder sells on spay/neuter contract, if the new buyer does not comply, there is nothing I can do. I don't ever want to see one of my dogs in rescue or a pet shop.

When an owner approaches me because they want to breed "so their children can witness birth", I do try to explain that their children can also witness death...of the puppies or their beloved yorkie. There are no guarantees that you will have a healthy litter, but the chances greatly improve with careful screening and research to choose the best sire for your bitch. I want to improve on her qualities and her faults, not make matters worse.

As far as small females, you are asking for trouble. Sure, there are small females who carry pups and do fine. Probably will not free whelp, but they carry a litter to term. Why do you think puppy mills keep large females? So they will have more pups and free whelp. Millers don't have time or even care to monitor a small female. Everytime I breed a bitch I put her life on the line. I can't guarantee something will not go wrong. I also tell that to pet owners who want to breed their female. Fortunately (and knock on wood), I have not lost a dam in whelp. But I know breeders who have. It is devastating to them. I'm anal when my bitches are due to whelp.

We will never be able to keep the back yard breeder from breeding Susie Q to Johnny Blue down the street if they really want to. At that point, I try to mentor to make sure the dam gets the proper nutrition and vet care, so that the pups have a chance to make a healthy entrance into the world. But I have no control on the genetic makeup of these puppies and if they will have a long and healthy life.
Just my thoughts.
Julie

[goldenray]

Originally Posted by yorluvr

When an owner approaches me because they want to breed "so their children can witness birth", I do try to explain that their children can also witness death...of the puppies or their beloved yorkie. There are no guarantees that you will have a healthy litter, but the chances greatly improve with careful screening and research to choose the best sire for your bitch. I want to improve on her qualities and her faults, not make matters worse.

As far as small females, you are asking for trouble. Sure, there are small females who carry pups and do fine. Probably will not free whelp, but they carry a litter to term. Why do you think puppy mills keep large females? So they will have more pups and free whelp. Millers don't have time or even care to monitor a small female. Everytime I breed a bitch I put her life on the line. I can't guarantee something will not go wrong. I also tell that to pet owners who want to breed their female. Fortunately (and knock on wood), I have not lost a dam in whelp. But I know breeders who have. It is devastating to them. I'm anal when my bitches are due to whelp.


Just my thoughts.
Julie

Almost every breeder I know has lost atleast one female because they bred her as we do literally take their lives in our hands. I NEVER would have allowed my son to watch a whelping, because too many things go wrong. Besides I remember his comment once when he came in where I was whelping "Oh gross what is that horrible smell" Delivering puppies does stink.

I always ask these wanna be breeders what all problems are in their girls lines. How many of it's litter mates died? How many of the parents littermates died? These are need to know questions. Personally I don't want to place a puppy with someone and have them call later hysterical because their beloved baby just died.

And as for small females, will NOT breed them. I know toooo many show exhibitors that have lost 5 pound females that their 8th week of pregnancy just laid down and died. I remember the one did an necropsy and it showed the puppies pushed up against the internal organs and shut them down because there were too many pups for her size. That was a litter of 4, decent size litter but sure not uncommon.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by goldenray

And as for small females, will NOT breed them. I know toooo many show exhibitors that have lost 5 pound females that their 8th week of pregnancy just laid down and died. I remember the one did an necropsy and it showed the puppies pushed up against the internal organs and shut them down because there were too many pups for her size. That was a litter of 4, decent size litter but sure not uncommon.

That is horrible! I just don't understand why anyone would risk breeding a female knowing what could very well happen. I mean, what are you trying to acomplish by doing that anyway?

[yorluvr]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

That is horrible! I just don't understand why anyone would risk breeding a female knowing what could very well happen. I mean, what are you trying to acomplish by doing that anyway?

You have puppy avatars. Where did they come from????? Either you or someone you know bred those puppies. None of us would have yorkies is someone did not breed them.

The fact of the matter is, whether you are breeding for show or for pets, the risk is there. But your responsible breeders are not going to breed [B]for tiny yorkies, or breed [B]their tiny yorkies. There are people who are not breeders but just want to have "one litter". They are usually clueless how to take care of the dam, let alone how to whelp a litter of puppies. And if they don't know the signs of when the dam is in trouble, chances are the pups and possibly the dam will die. I am an RN with 30 years experience in perioperative nursing. Yet, I still want help in whelping pups. Having an xtra set of hands can be invaluable and may mean the life or death in a difficult delivery.
You must know when the bitch is in trouble and a c-section is indicated. Even then, you are risking the bitch and pups with anesthesia, infection, and in first time moms, refusal of the pups since she has not gone through the delivery process.

That is why I do not allow the pets I place to be bred. That, along with if the yorkie is not good enough for me to breed, then no one else should breed her either.
Julie
Jo-Nel, Reg'd

[goldenray]

Originally Posted by yorluvr

You have puppy avatars. Where did they come from????? Either you or someone you know bred those puppies. None of us would have yorkies is someone did not breed them.

The fact of the matter is, whether you are breeding for show or for pets, the risk is there. But your responsible breeders are not going to breed [B]for tiny yorkies, or breed [B]their tiny yorkies. There are people who are not breeders but just want to have "one litter". They are usually clueless how to take care of the dam, let alone how to whelp a litter of puppies. And if they don't know the signs of when the dam is in trouble, chances are the pups and possibly the dam will die. I am an RN with 30 years experience in perioperative nursing. Yet, I still want help in whelping pups. Having an xtra set of hands can be invaluable and may mean the life or death in a difficult delivery.
You must know when the bitch is in trouble and a c-section is indicated. Even then, you are risking the bitch and pups with anesthesia, infection, and in first time moms, refusal of the pups since she has not gone through the delivery process.

That is why I do not allow the pets I place to be bred. That, along with if the yorkie is not good enough for me to breed, then no one else should breed her either.
Julie
Jo-Nel, Reg'd

Well said Julie. With experience we knock down the possibility of problems. As Julie said she still gets help from friends when whelping that know what they are doing also so she doubles her good chances. Plus big difference, we don't keep real small ones AND we look at other things. For instance, the structure we require for a show dog is important in whelping, as they need a proper rear to have a proper pelvis, etc.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by yorluvr

You have puppy avatars. Where did they come from????? Either you or someone you know bred those puppies. None of us would have yorkies is someone did not breed them.

I am sorry...I meant to say I don't know why anyone would breed very SMALL females...I left out the "small" which gave that statement a whole new meaning. Sorry!

And yes...the pups in the avatar are mine...as in, I bred them.

[red98vett]

This has been so interesting ...It's so good to see so many breeders on this site saying NO to breeding tinies....This is such an important message to send to those who really don't know the many risks that go along with this practice...There are so many people who may not post here ..but DO read... and I just want to say thank you to the breeders who are sharing their thoughts.

I learn so much from you all.

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I am sorry...I meant to say I don't know why anyone would breed very SMALL females...I left out the "small" which gave that statement a whole new meaning. Sorry!

And yes...the pups in the avatar are mine...as in, I bred them.

LOL Misty - I wondered if that was the case and thanks for clearing that statement up cause I KNOW I was scratchin my head too That omission of that one word DID give it a whole new meaning

[goldenray]

Originally Posted by red98vett

This has been so interesting ...It's so good to see so many breeders on this site saying NO to breeding tinies....This is such an important message to send to those who really don't know the many risks that go along with this practice...There are so many people who may not post here ..but DO read... and I just want to say thank you to the breeders who are sharing their thoughts.

I learn so much from you all.

I figure if we just help an occasional person, it is worth the time. We could see a lot of misinformation being given. I think people need to take responsibility for what they are doing and realize what might happen to their dogs also. Breeding is not to be taken lightly. Yes we all hear about the good situations, but rarely does anyone talk about the bad, because they don't want anyone to know.

Besides I have enjoyed meeting so many of you already.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by goldenray

I figure if we just help an occasional person, it is worth the time. We could see a lot of misinformation being given....
Besides I have enjoyed meeting so many of you already.

Who is "we?" What do you mean "we could see a lot of misinformation being given?"

Speaking for myself, I have enjoyed reading your posts too!

And yes, I totally agree w/ goldenray about reducing the possibility of problems by gaining experience and knowledge first. I know tradgedy can stike even the most seasoned breeder, but IMO, I think alot of the problems come from those who do not properly prepare themselves first. Yes there are risk and issues that arise, but if you are aware of the possibilities and signs and educate yourself on how to properly select complementing dams/sires, you greaty reduce this chance and are able to intervene quickly to stop a problem if and when it comes up.
I tried to make this point to others on several occasions when breeders here were questioned on their motives (as in, "it MUST be for profit") since losing the female is a risk. I don't think my point was ever understood by those questioning it.

[4yorks]

Hi every one. I am new here and I am happy that I was able to find this site. I truely believe that improving the breed is important and more importantly protecting the infants of such hard work and love.I am owned by two of my loving babies, Levi(3mo), and Hannah(9mo). I have always loved the breed and hope to become a breeder in the future. But right now I am enjoying the two blessings that I have and am working ever sooo hard to gain info. I am not very computer oriented,but am learning through my searches so please be gentle


christina.

[JCarlson2004]

Originally Posted by CC's

I'm not so much worried about protecting lines. Good lines need shared to keep the breed going strong.

I worry only about protecting my pup I let go. I don't want them living in some kennel only getting attention when its time for breeding, or being dumped when they aren't good breeders any longer. I want them to be valued family members that are loved every day for their entire lives.

Very well said. It's breeders like you that give me hope to ever purchase another puppy in the future.

My beautiful Maltese, Codie, had severe LP in his left rear leg. He's as good as new now thanks to an expensive operation. Also my precious Yorkie princess, Katie (who passed away - RIP my angel), was diagnosed with kidney disease.

My new Yorkie, Tee Tee Mouse, was sold to me with coccidia. I almost lost her that first night but thank god for nutrical, karo syrup and me and my hubby for staying up all night with her and constantly hydrating her. Tia (so far) doesn't have any medical problems. But we'll see what the future holds all in good time.

So from my 2 experiences, I will be extremely cautious (and probably paranoid) if I ever purchase another Yorkie (or Maltese) in the future.