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Old 10-05-2014, 10:26 AM   #1
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Default Does this breeder seem like a good breeder?

Pardon me if I don't disclose the name of the breeder--she only has one little pup left so I'm being a teensy bit selfish :P

PROS:
-She posts lots of pictures of the pups
-She posts tons of videos of the pups.
-For her breeding, she has two females and one male. It looks like she breeds each female once a year. She has a couple other females/males, but she retired them. She currently has a younger female and put down a deposit for a male for her "next generation" of breeding.
-She provided me references--I contacted about 3 people and they all had nice things to say about her. Reference A had a 12 week old pup from her, Reference B had a now 4 year old and 1 year old from her, and Reference C had a now 2 year old pup from her. All three references were very pleased with their pups.

-All three references told me that when they saw the pup that the pup appeared very clean and healthy and happy.
-She was very honest and upfront.
-She does aptitude testing.
-She follows up on pups after being adopted and hosts an annual "get-together" event.
-She does vaccinations. No coronavirus/lepto.
-On some old pictures on her FB page she did post pictures of the dam and sire of the pup I'm looking at's AKC registration certificate. It looks completely legitimate.
-She told me in detail about each pup in the litter's personalities. Very informative.
-She requires all potential adopters to fill out an adoption application.
-She posts tons of tips/advice on her FB page about deworming, etc.,
-Reference A said that she reached out to the breeder and that the breeder gave her lots of advice and support about her pup since the time of adoption.
-All adopters were required to sign a contract at the time of adoption. The contract stated that if the adopter was not able to take care of the pup at any time during the pup's life that they would return the pup back to the breeder.

CONS:
-She used to breed lhasa-apsos. However all the lhasa-apsos are now retired. Her boyfriend/fiance/now husband breeds pugs. It seems like she focuses on her yorkie pups/parents and her husband focuses on the pugs/parents.
-Reference A told me that since the breeder lives in an area where hawks/eagles are very common, she didn't let the pups outside much, so the pup that Reference A had was confused with grass the first couple of days, but later got over it.
-Reference C told me that her pup had an umbilical hernia that was fixed at the time of spaying/neutering, and that the breeder took the cost for the surgery off of the purchase price. Reference C told me that she was pretty sure that the umbilical hernia was developed from the mom being too rough with the pup. The mom of her pup is now retired, however.
-The pups DID get sick about a month ago, but she was very honest to me about the situation. She stated that the puppies drank from a black plumber's hose from the water well and that the hose got super warm and probably had some bacteria in it. Her husband also had gotten sick from that. The puppies had diarrhea but she gave them medication and gave them Coccidia and Giardia medicine just in case and their stools went back to normal. She said that they responded very well to the Corid. She said that the pups weren't lethargic while being sick and it didn't affect their playing or eating or drinking and that they had no fever, and that they are now completely healthy and checked out by her vet.
-She did admit to me that she doesn't do any health clearance testing. She said that she would like to but just haven't yet. She told me that so far there haven't been any genetic or health issues with her pups/parents and that the only thing that she can guarantee is that her pups are healthy when they leave her house and that there are no genetic issues that she is aware of. She did invite me to post on her Facebook page to ask if any of her previous buyers have had any genetic or health clearance issues. She mentioned to me that one of her past buyer's pups had been hit by a car (after being adopted) and that the pup needed surgery and that she offered to help raise the funds. Another pup needed hernia surgery and they helped pay for half. She said that if anything happened to the pup she would do her best she could to help with the funds, and that if something happened to the pup she would offer a replacement pup or a refund.

NOT SURE ABOUT/QUESTIONS:
-The sire's lines on pedigreedatabase.com have lines from Koedam's, Ju-Lyn's, and Schroeder's.
-The dam is 7 pounds and the sire is 4 pounds.
-Predicted weight for their pups ranged from 4-5 pounds though on average.
-Pups are AKC Conditional only.
-Parents/pups are fed Royal Canin.
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Old 10-05-2014, 10:54 AM   #2
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Umblical hernias are genetic and inherited - so yes she has a genetic defect in the line(s) she breeds. I am not sure where the pet owner got the idea the Mom was too rough with the puppy?


How-ever baring that and the above comment was from a pet owner, she seems to be doing a whole lot of things right.
But not how-ever health testing. And that quite simply I don't agree with.


It is up to you to determine how important it is to you health testing is.
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Old 10-05-2014, 11:23 AM   #3
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She sounds like a lovely person, but as a breeder, there is not enough information. Why is she breeding, just to provide more pets? We have so many pets available, and in my opinion, the only reason to be breeding is because you want to better the breed. You think you have something to offer the breed, and you think you have the knowledge to breed a better and healthier dog. In order to do this, you must be super aware of breed standard, and only breed those dogs that conform to that. The best way to find out if they conform is to belong to breed clubs and be involved in showing. At the very least a breeder should be thoroughly educated in all Yorkie illnesses and have her breeding dogs checked thoroughly for genetic problems. My guess is shes breeding her pets, and this is a big no no. Good breeders love their breeding dogs, but understand why its important to treat them more like working dogs and not pets, it could mean the difference between life and death, when its time to whelp. I believe every buyer should try to find the best breeder they can find and one whose doing it for the right reason, not to make a little extra money, nor simply to provide pets.

I do think some of the cons are pros, for example, she doesn't let her dogs play outside because they have hawks, most pups you'll have to train to like grass, at first they don't like the feel of it. I also don't think just because she use to breed lhasa-apsos that that would be a bad thing. Many breeders started with one breed and fell in love with another, but if she's switched just because Yorkies are easier to sell, then that would be a bad reason. Two of the Pros aren't really pros, they are probably done by many to persuade people that they are indeed a good breeder, but they are meaningless. For example these two:

She requires all potential adopters to fill out an adoption application.
-She posts tons of tips/advice on her FB page about deworming, etc..


I do like that she's willing to take the pup back if you can't take care of it, I wonder if she's ever taken any back. Also, as far as the questions that you were uncertain of, "AKC Conditional only" I think that means limited registration and that means she won't be selling breeding rights. This is definitely a sign about someone who might care for the breed, however, some say that but if you offer them more money, they will sell the breeding rights. A good breeder doesn't sell breeding rights.

Do you live close enough to her to check out the breeding conditions of the dogs, if not, look elsewhere please.
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Old 10-05-2014, 02:12 PM   #4
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Without using a name it's very hard for people to give you a full or true review. There are some people who could know or have heard things from past owners or are just extremely good at doing research. There are also certain words or wording that could set off some read flags when looking at her page. No health testing would make me walk away. Her saying there is not genetic issues having known about the umbilical hernia would also make me walk away because one she either dosent know enough about it to know it's genetic and all good breeders should know that or two she just brushed it off as no big deal which she could possibly do with any other thing small or large or third she could have just lied but who knows. Either way I would not be comfortable buying from her.
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:51 PM   #5
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Sounds like a good, responsible breeder to me, provided "conditional" AKC registration means "limited" AKC registration with spay/neuter contract. Many of us are still trying to figure out just how helpful some of these so-called health clearances are and opt to work closely with trusted veterinarians and knowledge of our lines to make sound breeding decisions. Some of us also are very interested in improving the breed but are realistic enough to know we need to sell puppies to pay for the process.
Yes, I do have show champions of my own breeding, one finished just 2 weeks ago.
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Old 10-05-2014, 06:10 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by magicgenie View Post
Sounds like a good, responsible breeder to me, provided "conditional" AKC registration means "limited" AKC registration with spay/neuter contract. Many of us are still trying to figure out just how helpful some of these so-called health clearances are and opt to work closely with trusted veterinarians and knowledge of our lines to make sound breeding decisions. Some of us also are very interested in improving the breed but are realistic enough to know we need to sell puppies to pay for the process.
Yes, I do have show champions of my own breeding, one finished just 2 weeks ago.
Hi magicgenie--since you a breeder yourself, do you find any red flags in the Cons section of my original post that are particularly worrisome/should be concerned about?
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Old 10-05-2014, 06:13 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Nancy1999 View Post
She sounds like a lovely person, but as a breeder, there is not enough information. Why is she breeding, just to provide more pets? We have so many pets available, and in my opinion, the only reason to be breeding is because you want to better the breed. You think you have something to offer the breed, and you think you have the knowledge to breed a better and healthier dog. In order to do this, you must be super aware of breed standard, and only breed those dogs that conform to that. The best way to find out if they conform is to belong to breed clubs and be involved in showing. At the very least a breeder should be thoroughly educated in all Yorkie illnesses and have her breeding dogs checked thoroughly for genetic problems. My guess is shes breeding her pets, and this is a big no no. Good breeders love their breeding dogs, but understand why its important to treat them more like working dogs and not pets, it could mean the difference between life and death, when its time to whelp. I believe every buyer should try to find the best breeder they can find and one whose doing it for the right reason, not to make a little extra money, nor simply to provide pets.

I do think some of the cons are pros, for example, she doesn't let her dogs play outside because they have hawks, most pups you'll have to train to like grass, at first they don't like the feel of it. I also don't think just because she use to breed lhasa-apsos that that would be a bad thing. Many breeders started with one breed and fell in love with another, but if she's switched just because Yorkies are easier to sell, then that would be a bad reason. Two of the Pros aren't really pros, they are probably done by many to persuade people that they are indeed a good breeder, but they are meaningless. For example these two:

She requires all potential adopters to fill out an adoption application.
-She posts tons of tips/advice on her FB page about deworming, etc..


I do like that she's willing to take the pup back if you can't take care of it, I wonder if she's ever taken any back. Also, as far as the questions that you were uncertain of, "AKC Conditional only" I think that means limited registration and that means she won't be selling breeding rights. This is definitely a sign about someone who might care for the breed, however, some say that but if you offer them more money, they will sell the breeding rights. A good breeder doesn't sell breeding rights.

Do you live close enough to her to check out the breeding conditions of the dogs, if not, look elsewhere please.
Thanks for providing me some excellent input, Nancy. I emailed her additional questions about her breeding program, why she breeds, etc.,

On her website, she states that her prices are firm as she believes that pups are not gardening tools that can be bid over. She also states that her pups do not NEED to be sold and that she is happy keeping them if they do not get sold.
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Old 10-05-2014, 06:14 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 View Post
Without using a name it's very hard for people to give you a full or true review. There are some people who could know or have heard things from past owners or are just extremely good at doing research. There are also certain words or wording that could set off some read flags when looking at her page. No health testing would make me walk away. Her saying there is not genetic issues having known about the umbilical hernia would also make me walk away because one she either dosent know enough about it to know it's genetic and all good breeders should know that or two she just brushed it off as no big deal which she could possibly do with any other thing small or large or third she could have just lied but who knows. Either way I would not be comfortable buying from her.
Thanks for the input. I emailed her asking about the umbilical hernia. She's been extremely honest and upfront with me so far so hopefully she gives me a very honest answer. I will let you know what she says!
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Old 10-05-2014, 06:16 PM   #9
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Umblical hernias are genetic and inherited - so yes she has a genetic defect in the line(s) she breeds. I am not sure where the pet owner got the idea the Mom was too rough with the puppy?


How-ever baring that and the above comment was from a pet owner, she seems to be doing a whole lot of things right.
But not how-ever health testing. And that quite simply I don't agree with.


It is up to you to determine how important it is to you health testing is.
I asked her (the pet owner/reference) if her vet said that the umbilical hernia was genetic or developed and she said: "It is caused by the mother being too rough. I'm pretty sure." , so I emailed her for more information regarding that.

I think that if I do end up purchasing from her I will be 100% buying pet insurance just in case anything comes up.
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Old 10-05-2014, 06:19 PM   #10
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I asked her (the pet owner/reference) if her vet said that the umbilical hernia was genetic or developed and she said: "It is caused by the mother being too rough. I'm pretty sure." , so I emailed her for more information regarding that.

I think that if I do end up purchasing from her I will be 100% buying pet insurance just in case anything comes up.
Pet insurance is great for money but watching a dog suffer from a serious genetic illness or defect and or suffering from the surgery from a genetic illness or defect can be pretty horrible.
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Old 10-05-2014, 06:21 PM   #11
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Pet insurance is great for money but watching a dog suffer from a serious genetic illness or defect and or suffering from the surgery from a genetic illness or defect can be pretty horrible.
Yeah, I understand what you mean. I will wait for the breeder's reply and the reference people's replies and see what they say--then make my best judgment. The main worry for me is is no health testing/health clearance issue. But so far I like the breeder, the parents, and the pup so it's sort of a hard decision.
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Old 10-06-2014, 08:17 AM   #12
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Hi magicgenie--since you a breeder yourself, do you find any red flags in the Cons section of my original post that are particularly worrisome/should be concerned about?
I see no red flags at all. I believe she gave you references that checked out OK. If an internet search on her name comes up clean you can't do much more to verify her credibility. Good luck.
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Old 10-06-2014, 08:32 AM   #13
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Yeah, I understand what you mean. I will wait for the breeder's reply and the reference people's replies and see what they say--then make my best judgment. The main worry for me is is no health testing/health clearance issue. But so far I like the breeder, the parents, and the pup so it's sort of a hard decision.
Even veterinarians aren't too impressed with the so-called health clearances, so don't put too much weight on that. A breeder's reputation is a heck of a lot more telling. Health testing---dogs with great knees are still producing pups with luxating patellas, and vice versa. Knees can be great one year and bad the next. HIPS--Legge Perthes shows up out of parents with perfect hips. Since it's polygenic we don't know the mode of inheritance. EYES--How often are we supposed to repeat that test? How often does PRA show up in Yorkies anyway? What test predicts liver shunt?
If breeders really wanted to do the right thing, there would be a data bank where we could report and track health issues. I keep such a data base for my own breeding, and would galdly submit the information to a central place that could track these things across generations of pedigree.
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Old 10-06-2014, 09:21 AM   #14
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For the umbilical hernia:

The breeder said that it was caused by mom pulling too much on the cord at birth. She says she knows that a pup will have the hernia if she notices that mom getting to close to the pup's belly. She stated that if the pup had a hernia than she tells the prospective buyer ahead of time and lets them know. She doesn't like to do the surgery prior to adoption since the pups are so young and that she would like them to get bigger before the surgery. She said that for the pup that had the hernia, she called the local vets in the buyer's area to get an overall price estimate and took that amount off of the cost of the pup.

For the reasons to breed part:

She said that she and her husband have always loved dogs. Her mother-in-law was a breeder so her husband was used to being in the proximity. She said that before she did not have much knowledge about dogs and mating except for her experiences as a kid and her yorkie and her husband's pug ended up mating. She then said that after she found out, she started doing tons of research, reading articles and books, watching videos, and learning about whelping to get ready for the pups. After the pups were whelped, she told me that she liked being a breeder, the pups, doing all the research, how the AKC worked and then decided to become a breeder full-time and studied and learned everything she possibly could about breeding. She says that she is still continuing to take classes and just completed her General Veterinary class and that she is hoping to take a Fecal Flotation class in the future. She says that she hopes to become a vet one day and that currently she is studying/reading vet tech books and researching on coat and color genetics. She also says that she has a friend that is a vet tech and that they often get together to swap knowledge and talk about yorkies.

For the registration:

She said that it was Conditional and Limited and that the pups would be pet only. No breeding.
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Old 10-06-2014, 09:53 AM   #15
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Even veterinarians aren't too impressed with the so-called health clearances, so don't put too much weight on that. A breeder's reputation is a heck of a lot more telling. Health testing---dogs with great knees are still producing pups with luxating patellas, and vice versa. Knees can be great one year and bad the next. HIPS--Legge Perthes shows up out of parents with perfect hips. Since it's polygenic we don't know the mode of inheritance. EYES--How often are we supposed to repeat that test? How often does PRA show up in Yorkies anyway? What test predicts liver shunt?
If breeders really wanted to do the right thing, there would be a data bank where we could report and track health issues. I keep such a data base for my own breeding, and would galdly submit the information to a central place that could track these things across generations of pedigree.

Eyes the answer can be found on CERF - they recommend annually. if I am breeding that year I do, if not I do every 2 years. I do the first one at one year old. Don't know the rate as many breeders are not sending in the results to CHIC


Leggs Perthes often shows up anywhere from 7-12 months old - Again not mainly are doing PennHip and or OFFA. So again the database for Yorkies is very small.


In my mind the strongest argument for health screenings is to create a whole database of knowledge, knowledge that we are losing, as more and more long time oldies are retiring, and some are dying way before their time. Not much longer can we rely on word of mouth about this line or that line having this or that disease in it. The knowledge even 20yrs ago was spotty at best; for truly how many breeders actively pursue their puppy buyers for annual or even every two year health updates on their puppies? Some do yes - but it is not a requirement to be in good standing with the YTCA and or the CYTC.


And yes we all desperately need the actual genetic tests for LS, HD, LP, ED, Pra for Yorkies etc.


And I too have heard frequently about how usefull are these anyhow? Oh it is just a scam for vets and lab companies to make more money.


I was so glad that I insisted on the one genetic test we have for BRT;s before I commited to my show gal; I had the two show females tested, one came back clear, and one Affected!!! And I was reassured that both sire and dam were clear. There is no way through this mating could result in an affected pup if both were clear..... As I could not find the genetic test results for both parents listed, I insisted and did pay for the test on both gals. Can you imagine importing a gal from Russia only to find out later she was affected???......


So that genetic test was worth to me way more than the $150 I paid for it to be done.


We have databanks for many things already. HD ED PRA Cataracts Thyroid Heart Hearing.


The other thing is, we do need to be carefull and screen what our puppy buyers tell us about the health of their dogs. If they say their dog has a heart murmur, well has the specialist ddx it, and if so what is the grade and type of heart murmur? Allergeries how was it ddx'd - allergeric to what? Their hips are bad.... again a specialist needs to ddx HD or Leggs Perthes not a general vet. And the examples go on and on and on.
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