Does this breeder seem like a good breeder?

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

Even veterinarians aren't too impressed with the so-called health clearances, so don't put too much weight on that. A breeder's reputation is a heck of a lot more telling. Health testing---dogs with great knees are still producing pups with luxating patellas, and vice versa. Knees can be great one year and bad the next. HIPS--Legge Perthes shows up out of parents with perfect hips. Since it's polygenic we don't know the mode of inheritance. EYES--How often are we supposed to repeat that test? How often does PRA show up in Yorkies anyway? What test predicts liver shunt?
If breeders really wanted to do the right thing, there would be a data bank where we could report and track health issues. I keep such a data base for my own breeding, and would galdly submit the information to a central place that could track these things across generations of pedigree.

If you go back in the lines of the dogs that have had puppies with LP or any other genetic illness I would think you would find a relative with it.

[Lovetodream88]

Most of what I read says most of umbilical hernias are genetic but there are a few that are not. I would think the breeder though would be there to see mom was being to rough and stop it but that's just my opinion. In the end it just comes down to what you are comfortable with. I imagine that truly 100% perfect breeders might not exist or if they do are very hard to find. Good luck with your decision.

[magicgenie]

I have them show up every once in a while here. They are easy to repair and I haven't noticed a pattern to when they appear, so not convinced they are genetic. Frankly, I've been inclined to think they were more related to how the cord was severed and/or tied off at birth. I have no medical knowledge other than what I've acquired through breeding, so am open to the hows and whys umbilical hernias appear. I wouldn't fault a breeder for one.

As for the health testing, I'm very open to information about that and don't wish to argue for or against. As previously stated, I'm examining the advantages. Certainly there are no disadvantantages other than cost. It may be mroe accurate for me to say I'm still weighing cost vs benefit. I consider myself quite a good, responsible breeder trying to improve the breed without having to price puppies out of the reach of all but the wealthiest 1%.

It's turning out to be quite a mild day here, in the Great North Woods of NH where we're preparing for the long isolation of winter.

[thelittleyorkie]

Regarding the conditions that are usually checked for by the health clearances (hip, knees, etc.,): what are they, and what age do they usually start to appear?

[gemy]

Originally Posted by thelittleyorkie

Regarding the conditions that are usually checked for by the health clearances (hip, knees, etc.,): what are they, and what age do they usually start to appear?

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/die...p-10-list.html


This link to the Stickey in the Health library should answer a lot of your questions.


Timing is variable per condition and the severity of the condition:


Leggs Perthes 7+-12 months old


HD - if mild can go undecteted for years. More severe grades of HD will probably start to show themselves at 1yr+


ED - same as above


LP - you can tell as early as eight wks old, if the patella clicks. Some pups as they mature can right themselves from what is called loose knees - but by 3mths old you can tell more.


PRA and or cataracts - can be evidenced as early as 6mths to a year, and some not until 5-6 yrs old.


LS - Bat testing can give you an idea of the health of their liver - do at 16 wks old and repeat at 6mths old. In severe cases onset of symptoms can be as early as 4mths old or as late as 4-5 yrs old in very mild cases.


AAI - is pretty variable. Depends on the severity. Often times can go un-diagnosed for several years.


Please note there are no Genetic tests for these diseases. Health screenings prior to breeding is the most a breeder can do. \\

[thelittleyorkie]

I went back in her Breeder's FB page history and I saw that she first started to mate her male with two of her females sort of young....the male was 15 months and the two females were 12 months and 11 months (this was back at around mid-October 2013). I think this is pretty young so I now have more reservations....
If I'm doing my calculations correct, the male should be 27 months old now (2 years 3 months) and both females should be about 24 months old now (2 years). From looking at what gemy posted, it looks like Leggs Perthes and LP should have shown up by now but it's not a guarantee.
So so far, both females have had litters in Dec 2013 and July 2014.

The price she was asking for the pup was $800, which is pretty reasonable, but money shouldn't be the deciding factor. The pup's health is all that I care about...

[thelittleyorkie]

Here is what I found regarding the male's pedigree posted on pedigreedatabase.com----https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/yorkshire_terrier/dog.html?id=1993711-charlie-browns-lil-patch-o-punkin

Do these seem like good lines? I see some are registered with ACA/APRI which isn't that reliable...

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by thelittleyorkie

Here is what I found regarding the male's pedigree posted on pedigreedatabase.com----https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/yorkshire_terrier/dog.html?id=1993711-charlie-browns-lil-patch-o-punkin

Do these seem like good lines? I see some are registered with ACA/APRI which isn't that reliable...

It really doesn't matter if the pup has someone, usually a grandpa, from good lines, it matters who that dog is bred with and so on and so on. A breeder needs to know how to breed out faults, but most byb's breed in faults. You are correct, APRI and ACA are very bad, and were started because many commercial breeders got kicked out of the AKC. Dogs registered with them have puppymills in their background.

[thelittleyorkie]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

It really doesn't matter if the pup has someone, usually a grandpa, from good lines, it matters who that dog is bred with and so on and so on. A breeder needs to know how to breed out faults, but most byb's breed in faults. You are correct, APRI and ACA are very bad, and were started because many commercial breeders got kicked out of the AKC. Dogs registered with them have puppymills in their background.

True, true. I think I may just have to stay away and avoid this breeder.

Thanks for all the opinions, ladies! It really helped a LOT.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by thelittleyorkie

I went back in her Breeder's FB page history and I saw that she first started to mate her male with two of her females sort of young....the male was 15 months and the two females were 12 months and 11 months (this was back at around mid-October 2013). I think this is pretty young so I now have more reservations....
If I'm doing my calculations correct, the male should be 27 months old now (2 years 3 months) and both females should be about 24 months old now (2 years). From looking at what gemy posted, it looks like Leggs Perthes and LP should have shown up by now but it's not a guarantee.
So so far, both females have had litters in Dec 2013 and July 2014.

The price she was asking for the pup was $800, which is pretty reasonable, but money shouldn't be the deciding factor. The pup's health is all that I care about...

The age is a little disappointing. If bred at one year the female was to young and I guessing it was probably her first heat which is also a big no no. The parents can be free of LP but say the grandparents had it then the pup could end up with it to.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by thelittleyorkie

Here is what I found regarding the male's pedigree posted on pedigreedatabase.com----https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/yorkshire_terrier/dog.html?id=1993711-charlie-browns-lil-patch-o-punkin

Do these seem like good lines? I see some are registered with ACA/APRI which isn't that reliable...

That would make me walk away right there because even a coffee table can be registered as a dog with those registrys. I know the AKC has it's issues but most of the time your going to get a pure breed with that registry and with the others more then likely your not.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by thelittleyorkie

I went back in her Breeder's FB page history and I saw that she first started to mate her male with two of her females sort of young....the male was 15 months and the two females were 12 months and 11 months (this was back at around mid-October 2013). I think this is pretty young so I now have more reservations....
If I'm doing my calculations correct, the male should be 27 months old now (2 years 3 months) and both females should be about 24 months old now (2 years). From looking at what gemy posted, it looks like Leggs Perthes and LP should have shown up by now but it's not a guarantee.
So so far, both females have had litters in Dec 2013 and July 2014.

The price she was asking for the pup was $800, which is pretty reasonable, but money shouldn't be the deciding factor. The pup's health is all that I care about...

Well she has stated she does not health test, so you can't check to see what the results are through the health databases.


Mating a female that young well it is definitely frowned about by most responsible breeders be they members of a National Club or not.


Mating a male at 15months old of course is a tad different, how-ever again you can not do the complete health screenings at 15mths old.


I don't know the pricing of pure-bred AKC Yorkies where you live, but $800 is certainly not cheap for a pup, from parents that are not health tested, nor championed, whose lineage seems to reflect poor registries.


In my two clubs, we don't allow our females to be bred until the second heat or 18months old which-ever is longer. She stated she studied up on more than just the basics of breeding, then why did she breed her two females so young. That is a rhetorical question as I see that you have decided to pass on this puppy from this breeder.


It is certainly the decision I would make as well.

[thelittleyorkie]

Originally Posted by gemy

She stated she studied up on more than just the basics of breeding, then why did she breed her two females so young. That is a rhetorical question as I see that you have decided to pass on this puppy from this breeder.


It is certainly the decision I would make as well.

Yes--as soon as I saw how young the females were, I did some digging through some old YT threads and realized that it was extremely young. I also thought it was kind of odd that since she did so much research, she did not want to health clearance her yorkies. On top of that, her yorkies come from not so great lines.

I would rather be safe than sorry, so that is why I have decided to pass on this breeder.

[magicgenie]

Originally Posted by thelittleyorkie

Yes--as soon as I saw how young the females were, I did some digging through some old YT threads and realized that it was extremely young. I also thought it was kind of odd that since she did so much research, she did not want to health clearance her yorkies. On top of that, her yorkies come from not so great lines.

I would rather be safe than sorry, so that is why I have decided to pass on this breeder.

Now you've found the red flags. The girls were bred much too young and APRI and CKC (Continental Kennel Club) are nothing to brag about on a pedigree.

[thelittleyorkie]

I am now 100% sure I made the right call in deciding not to purchase a pup from her... Apparently the breeder was not happy with me asking too many questions and apparently contacting one of her FB friends who stated publicly that they had long-time babies from her (I friended them and they accepted so I thought it was f) without her "permission". One of them didn't have a problem with it and was 100% fine with it, but I guess the other one did not and decided to contact her. The one that was not fine with it did not give me any indication that she was not comfortable with the situation and decided to contact her (the breeder) instead of me about the situation. I contacted the few people that I asked questions to and formally apologized and they all said that it was fine and that I needed to ask those questions and that they understood me asking them.

The next thing that happens is that the breeder posts publicly on her Facebook page accusing me of being rude and judgmental and telling everyone to block me. This was before she contacted me so she was assuming all of these things. She then confronts me via FB Messages about the situation, calling me rude and judgmental, etc., so I went ahead and copy pasted all the conversations that I had with with the references that she gave me. I also told her my doubts about her and the red flags that I saw and she continued to defend herself multiple times with "not-so-great comebacks". It got tiring so I blocked both her and her FB page.

Needless to say she was not very professional. I am not including her name in here to avoid any future lawsuits in case she stumbles upon this thread so she will remain "Anonymous" but this is the first time I have encountered such a disappointing and unprofessional breeder of this caliber.

Thank you for taking the time to read this short little rant. I think I'll stick with breeders highly recommended by YTers or YTCA yorkie breeders from now on. I need to take a break from the computer and simmer for a little while. :/