Loosing puppies

[auntielaurie]

Honest answers please...
I would like to know how many breeders have lost puppies? I really wanted to be a breeder. My husband and I talked about it for years before we decided to move to an area that would allow people to have more than 3 animals. We had a kennel built with an outside covered area for the comfort of our yorkies. It is real nice. the inside is all heated. The yorkies go out side when it's nice and also have access to a fully fenced play area in the grass. We have never skimped on our yorkies. We take them to the vet for even a broken nail.
We have had a mentor for at least 5 years and I have read books on breeding as well as watched you tube on how to do tail docking, dew claws, really you tube is great.
I learned how to tube feed for my little runt.
I am so upset though I slowly introduced my little runt to another nursing mama that had to puppies, one of which died earlier in the week (see earlier post). My little runt wasn't gaining much weight so I tried to see if the other mama would nurse her. The first few times she acted scared so I would try again in a few days. On the third time my little runt was able to nurse on her. I was so beyond happy. I watched them for a long time making sure all was going well. She took the little runt and treated it like her own. Then when I checked on them yesterday morning she picked up the runt in her mouth and it was dead.I feel so bad for my little puppy. I was so in love with her. I have no idea why she died. She was fine a couple hours earlier when mu husband checked on her. So to make a long post a little shorter..is it normal to loose puppies when you breed? It's not like we havn't done everything to make sure we have healthy breeding stock and we also have spent thousands of dollars trying to save a puppy. We are just wanting to know do we go forward with our dream or if it just isn't meant to be.Like I said truthful answers please. BTW we are still fairly new to this. We have had only 5 breedings in the last 4 years. We have 5 females and 2 studs..one of which is not old enough to use..he has alot of champion blood lines and was excited to get him but now I don't know what to do.

[bjh]

I am sorry your lost your little runt. Unfortunately things like that do happen occasionally. I have been breeding yorkies for 16 years and over the years I have lost some puppies. Just about everyone I know that raises yorkies has lost puppies on occasion. No matter how careful a breeder can try to be there are many things that can happen that our beyond our control. Breeding yorkies is a huge responsibility and it can be very rewarding but it can also be very heartbreaking.

[Lovetodream88]

It sounds like you have a separate building for your yorkies if you breed and that is just not good. Yorkies are the kind of dogs that have to be around people. Mine actually gets sick if she does not spend enough human time. Also the moms need to be watched very very well when they are going to whelp because one thing could go wrong and the female could die or the puppies could die or both. Puppies should also be raised around people so they know people and are not afraid of them. An outbuilding is just not right for this kind of dog or any probably. To make sure your able to offer individual attention to each litter you really don't want to have more then one due at the same time. I personally would never ever buy from a breeder who did not raise the puppies in the house as well as the parents. Breeding is a lot of work you can't breed the female every heat, you can't breed a female under 5 pounds, you need to do genetic and health testing on the dogs you want to breed, you need to know the lines you are breeding to make sure there is no Luxating Patella or other problems in them, you have to be prepared to really not make any money and maybe even lose money, be prepared for emergency c-sections, care for mom and pups, keep the pups until 12 weeks, dock the tails, only breed dogs that fit the standard, know any signs that could mean your female needs vet help, I hear stud dogs mark every where, you need to have a mentor who has done this before, make sure you have a good health guarantee, you need to make sure you are using the AKC, you should also look at the yorkie parent club which is The Yorkshire Terrier Club of America and be following all there rules and you might lose pups but you also have to remember you might lose the mother too. Pregnancy has its risks with humans and animals.

[auntielaurie]

Yes we have a very nice out building....NO they don't live in it!!! They live in our home, sleep in our bedroom. Whelp on our bed in a whelping box. We have spent thousands of dollars on genetic testing, Dna, c-sections, vet bills.My yorkies are part of our family...raised in our home, they play inside and outside. The kennel is for there safety.A place for them to go get fresh air and if we are out for the day they can be in the kennel and safe. if they are outside playing we have to be there with them,we have birds of pray that could snatch up a yorkie..that's why we built the kennel.
Why do you people always asume other breeders are in it for the money and don't have a clue what they are doing?? I don't make any money...the kennel alone was $30,000. So I'm pretty dang sure I won't ever get that back.I love the breed and that's why I wanted to be a breeder, and do it right.
Please I know what it cost...Not making money on breeding. I have put a ton of my time learning about breeding, have a mentor,totally changed my life to do this..so don't judge me and think I'm in it for the money...it's always so nagitive...what about someone answering the question that I ask.
I'm so heart broken over loosing two puppies, you have no idea...

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by auntielaurie

Yes we have a very nice out building....NO they don't live in it!!! They live in our home, sleep in our bedroom. Whelp on our bed in a whelping box. We have spent thousands of dollars on genetic testing, Dna, c-sections, vet bills.My yorkies are part of our family...raised in our home, they play inside and outside. The kennel is for there safety.A place for them to go get fresh air and if we are out for the day they can be in the kennel and safe. if they are outside playing we have to be there with them,we have birds of pray that could snatch up a yorkie..that's why we built the kennel.
Why do you people always asume other breeders are in it for the money and don't have a clue what they are doing?? I don't make any money...the kennel alone was $30,000. So I'm pretty dang sure I won't ever get that back.I love the breed and that's why I wanted to be a breeder, and do it right.
Please I know what it cost...Not making money on breeding. I have put a ton of my time learning about breeding, have a mentor,totally changed my life to do this..so don't judge me and think I'm in it for the money...it's always so nagitive...what about someone answering the question that I ask.
I'm so heart broken over loosing two puppies, you have no idea...

I am very sorry for the loss of your pup and I am very sorry you thought I was judging you because I was not. The majority of people who breed don't do the right things so I think it's awesome you do. It sounded like you just wanted to start breeding and hadn't started already.

[nanahas3]

I am not a breeder but wanted to say I am so sorry for your loss. When I was a child my dad was a breeder of larger dogs and it was not unusual for a mama to kill one if it was not hers. He quit trying to get them to adopt puppies not their own because of this. I hope things go better for you with the rest of your litter I know it must be heartbreaking to lose them.

[Yorkiemom1]

I just attended a webinar on "Caring for the Puppies"....which was #4 in a 4 part series about Managing your Breeding Program, Managing your Brood Bitch, Managing Your Stud, and lastly, Caring for the Puppies. Dr Marti Greer is a wonderful reproductive vet with much credability and experience..."expert in the field" would not be too strong a term.
She stresses that it is NOT normal or to be expected or accepted to loose puppies. Puppies are lost the majority of the time because there was something that was not addressed by the breeder. ALL deceased puppies should be autopsied....you have to know WHY your baby did not survive. If the tapes are offered for this webinar, I would strongly advise you to purchase them if this is a path you are going to take. Bringing puppies into the world should demand an enormous amount of research of both parents, in order to avoid genetic issues....one can always jump up and bite you in the butt, but you must do all you can to be knowledgable about your pedigrees and lines. You must be able to resusitate a puppy without hesitation, with confidence and determination. Any interference you have to provide, in order to help that baby survive, you must do. Immediate response to situations that you are closely monitoring, will keep you from finding yourself playing catch up, trying to jerk that baby from the jaws of death....you act immediately, go straight to the problem, address the problem, and continue to monitor the results. Time can not be spent or wasted, trying to let momma or a surrogate think about if they may want to take care of this sick baby.....YOU step in and do whatever is necessary to solve the problem, IMMEDIATELY and quickly. This requires MUCH dedication and devotion and a committment to spend whatever time is needed to help that baby fight for its life. There are things as a breeder you can do that PREVENT issues...like not allowing mom to cut her puppys cord....that avoids the possibility of mom disemboweling the baby by chewing and pulling on the cord....YOU tie and cut the cord and do the cord care twice a day...lots of babies die from massive sepsis due to poor cord care....this MUST BE DONE WITH TINCTURE OF IODINE!!...not soap and water, alcohol, hand sanitizer, betadine, surgical soap,etc.... but done correctly, bacteria enter the open wound and set up massive infection in the peritoneal cavity. I could go on and on....this is NOT a cake walk. I will answer your question....I USED to loose puppies more frequently, then I learned to to prevent 98% of the losses, and it has not happened to me in over 6 years. I have NEVER found a baby dead in with mom...I am closely monitoring my babies and I pick up on subtle signs that indicate there may be an issue brewing, and I address that immediately. I never leave a sick puppy alone...I NEVER operate on a "wait and see" pace......I eat up vacation days, and when I have no vacation time left, they go to work in my bra.....I carry sick babies around in my bra. Our YT member, "Gemy" (Gail) also attends these webinars and she will post a link where you can buy tapes of the webinar, if it is offered to people that did not attend the class. If it is offered, it will be the best money you will spend this month.

[auntielaurie]

I would love to be able to purchase the videos if they become available. I'm wondering is he talking through the whole thing or are there clips of actual whelpings of puppies in trouble that he teaches what to do to insure the health of the puppy and mom.I'm also unsure if every puppy should live. What about puppies that you keep alive and the financial cost to keep them alive..don't get me wrong I have spent over $3,500 on vet bills for a puppy that I paid $1,200 on. I had the puppy 2 days when I took it to the vet.because it was very ill.The breeder would not give me a refund. She said she would need an atopies report for a replacement puppy. The puppy survived and she finally decided to replace the puppy after we spent all the money we had. Is there a limit to how much money you spend on vet bills when is enough enough?
What do you do when you have already spent amost $5,000 on one puppy?? I don't think many would even do that, I'd really like to know.Most people don't have an unlimited suppy of money. Does that mean we shouldn't breed?I always make sure that I have money for a c-section and some for whatever comes up but my funds are limited..

[Yorkiemom1]

The tapes are not videos, they are recordings of the webinar remote class. As far as if every puppy should live, Dr.Greer's phylosophy is every baby deserves the chance to live. If the puppy has obvious deformaties, that are not going to allow that puppy to live, then she certainly does not believe in prolonging the inevietable....end the puppys suffering with euthanasia. But as a breeder, you have a moral and ethical responsibility to do what you can to save the puppy. The breeder you bought that sick puppy from, that wanted an autopsy to prove what was responsible for the death of the puppy, is not unreasonable. That is why you always need to do autopsies on dead puppies so you KNOW why that baby died...was it genetics? was it infection? was it malformation? I had a litter of 6 puppies come down with parvo, brought into my house on their clothes/shoes by people, out "looking at puppies".......Saving that litter, and all the associated expenses of shutting down breeding for almost 2 years, having my entire home and property treated with antivirals....cost me well over $35,000.00....over $25,000.00 of that was in vet bills alone. We saved the puppies, except one. How much you are willing to spend to save a puppy is a moral and ethical decision only YOU can answer. There are breeders that will toss a baby that is not progressing right on target, because they are working on a limited budget and do not have the money, time or desire to spend trying to save sick puppies. If I loose a baby, that baby could NOT have survived under any circumstances. I have the medical knowledge and the equipment necessary to do everything that can be done to keep that puppy alive. My efforts would stop if it becomes evident there are malformations or deformaties that can not be surmounted. But just because a puppy is tiny, or weaker than the rest of the litter, or not strong enough to nurse....all those issues are fixable with making sure the baby is fed.....and I step in immediately and feed that baby. As a breeder, that is the very loeast you can do for that puppy.....feed the baby, and if it can not absorm nutrients, then perhaps you can not do anything else for that baby, but you must at least feed a struggling baby....if that is all that is wrong with the puppy, it is savable and you need to be doing that. You must know how to tube feed a puppy, and you must do it. That is such a simple thing to do and you can save weak babies with effort and time and attention....puppies do not swallow the tube, you learn how to gently insert the tube and you feed the baby.....YOU control the situation, not the 1 oz puppy! I personally would NOT be doing this if I was not able to provide medical care to sick puppies. I do not make money doing this....I MAY break even, because I bank every cent made off a puppy, to cover the possible cost of sick puppies and my business supplies/expenses. This is NOTHING but a labor of love and the desire to produce healthy, beautiful, correct to breed standard, babies. You MUST have healthy, correct breeding stock....the very best you can get your hands on. That ensures your babies have at least a 50/50 chance of being healthy, genetically. But you have to know pedigrees so you know whuich ones have predispositions to certain issues. THIS is just a start....

[gemy]

Originally Posted by auntielaurie

I would love to be able to purchase the videos if they become available. I'm wondering is he talking through the whole thing or are there clips of actual whelpings of puppies in trouble that he teaches what to do to insure the health of the puppy and mom.I'm also unsure if every puppy should live. What about puppies that you keep alive and the financial cost to keep them alive..don't get me wrong I have spent over $3,500 on vet bills for a puppy that I paid $1,200 on. I had the puppy 2 days when I took it to the vet.because it was very ill.The breeder would not give me a refund. She said she would need an atopies report for a replacement puppy. The puppy survived and she finally decided to replace the puppy after we spent all the money we had. Is there a limit to how much money you spend on vet bills when is enough enough?
What do you do when you have already spent amost $5,000 on one puppy?? I don't think many would even do that, I'd really like to know.Most people don't have an unlimited suppy of money. Does that mean we shouldn't breed?I always make sure that I have money for a c-section and some for whatever comes up but my funds are limited..

It sounds like you have done many of the right things prior to breeding..

These questions you ask are so heartfelt - and can truly only be decided by you. When is enough enough What is not talked about enough, is the financial kitty one needs prior to going into breeding - and how to financially plan for the future. It is not just about losing a puppy, or the medical bills when in your home, but what happens if one of your puppies you place gets deathly ill... What is your health guarantee - what does it state - and also what is your moral and ethical obligation to support the owners of this puppy beyond what-ever the guarantee states. Again answers only you and your husband can come to.

I agree with YorkieMom1 - everything she said to you. It is very true. If you can, have a necropsy done on that puppy.

Breeders do lose puppies - not all the time but it does happen.

I will post under the breeders section when the links are available for the webinars from Dr Greer.

I do highly encourage on-going education - we can never know too much!

Also beyond your mentor is their a breeders group you could belong to

That also is very helpful to share ideas information and knowledge.

I think that at best, if you continue to do all the right things in the way of breeding, the best you can hope for financially, is to break-even (not including of course the capital cost of your building).

One day I hope to break even

[Yorkiemom1]

[QUOTE=gemy;4195652]It sounds like you have done many of the right things prior to breeding..

These questions you ask are so heartfelt - and can truly only be decided by you. When is enough enough What is not talked about enough, is the financial kitty one needs prior to going into breeding - and how to financially plan for the future. It is not just about losing a puppy, or the medical bills when in your home, but what happens if one of your puppies you place gets deathly ill... What is your health guarantee - what does it state - and also what is your moral and ethical obligation to support the owners of this puppy beyond what-ever the guarantee states. Again answers only you and your husband can come to.

I agree with YorkieMom1 - everything she said to you. It is very true. If you can, have a necropsy done on that puppy.

Breeders do lose puppies - not all the time but it does happen.

I will post under the breeders section when the links are available for the webinars from Dr Greer.

I do highly encourage on-going education - we can never know too much!

Also beyond your mentor is their a breeders group you could belong to

That also is very helpful to share ideas information and knowledge.

I think that at best, if you continue to do all the right things in the way of breeding, the best you can hope for financially, is to break-even (not including of course the capital cost of your building).

One day I hope to break even[/QUOTE]


I have pm'd you......

[Lou]

Auntielaurie, what does your mentor say about it?

[auntielaurie]

My mentor ask me to take the puppy to the vet and have her show me how to tube feed the puppy. Which I did. It was a little scary at first but I got the hang on it and for the most part the puppy did great. The last couple of days was kinda different. She mostly refused the tube feedings, wouldn't swollow the tube. So I talked to my mentor about letting my other mama try to feed her. She advised me to keep a close watch on them. At first Ivy acted scared of the puppy, I tried over a two day period and Ivy accepted her. Let her nurse and acted very loving towards her. I would watch them through out the next day. Everything looked great.
I have been too sad to talk to anyone in person so unless she has looked on fb she doesn't know the puppy died..this has been really hard on me.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by auntielaurie

My mentor ask me to take the puppy to the vet and have her show me how to tube feed the puppy. Which I did. It was a little scary at first but I got the hang on it and for the most part the puppy did great. The last couple of days was kinda different. She mostly refused the tube feedings, wouldn't swollow the tube. So I talked to my mentor about letting my other mama try to feed her. She advised me to keep a close watch on them. At first Ivy acted scared of the puppy, I tried over a two day period and Ivy accepted her. Let her nurse and acted very loving towards her. I would watch them through out the next day. Everything looked great.
I have been too sad to talk to anyone in person so unless she has looked on fb she doesn't know the puppy died..this has been really hard on me.

I know you did all that you could. Over the years I have switched pups around between moms, say if I had a female that had a really big litter and one that only had one or two puppies. My moms have always readily accepted the other moms pups. I doubt seriously that your yorkie intentionally killed the puppy. It sounds like the pup had other problems and just was not nursing well enough to sustain itself.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by auntielaurie

My mentor ask me to take the puppy to the vet and have her show me how to tube feed the puppy. Which I did. It was a little scary at first but I got the hang on it and for the most part the puppy did great. The last couple of days was kinda different. She mostly refused the tube feedings, wouldn't swollow the tube. So I talked to my mentor about letting my other mama try to feed her. She advised me to keep a close watch on them. At first Ivy acted scared of the puppy, I tried over a two day period and Ivy accepted her. Let her nurse and acted very loving towards her. I would watch them through out the next day. Everything looked great.
I have been too sad to talk to anyone in person so unless she has looked on fb she doesn't know the puppy died..this has been really hard on me.

You have been through the ringer haven't you. Are you going to take the body to the vet? That seems like it is the only solution.