Originally Posted by puppylove11 (Post 3209466)

First off I will state I am not a member of the "Yorkshire Terrier Club Of Ethical Breeders" nor do I desire to be.

There is good and bad in everything, including the ytca. So my issue is this plain and simple. There are breeders in the ytca with little to no ethics, but they have the right to vote on the breed standard and what is shown in the ring. Which is a slap in the face to the breeders who are not members of the ytca, but breed for better health and conformations. When every members of the ytca can produce the medical testing done on their breeding stock and prove they are all breeding healthy stock, I will show them respect.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3209183)

In my opinion, it depends more on what you're goals are, I've seen some parti breeders who advertise "champion background" and similar terminology and I believe that this is wrong. The purpose of showing is not so that you can raise your prices or add new marketing words to your ads. Some breeders of standard yorkies do this as well, so I don't wish to single out parti breeders, but the word champion should not be in your advertising. After all, this is considered a major fault and one that's very difficult to eliminate, so of course, breeders are worried that this could become a trait in even more lines. I guess this is where honesty and integrity come into play.

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 3209189)

Just curious, on another point that I brought up earlier. Now that Partis are being allowed into some show venues, what have the results of that been? Are there a good number being entered? Etc...

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3209509)

I really do not understand where the big worry is.

The standard breeders will always keep their lines parti free, or as free as they have always been, occasionally one pops up. There is room in the world and in the show ring for both colors.

In fact, had the YTCA embraced the color instead of denying that it existed, they would have some control over what is being done with it.

JMO but I believe it was a foollish mistake on the part of the YTCA to ignore the color all these years, and to leave it to the hands of unscrupulous people.

Originally Posted by topknot (Post 3209192)

I know it sounds confusing - but what we are talking about is the standard - what is the guidline for what yorkies should be.

The standard states:
Colors:Puppies are born black and tan and are normally darker in body color, showing an intermingling of black hair in the tan until they are matured. Color of hair on body and richness of tan on head and legs are of prime importance in adult dogs, to which the following color requirements apply: BLUE: Is a dark steel blue, not a silver blue and not mingled with fawn, bronzy or black hairs. TAN: All tan hair is darker at the roots than in the middle, shading to still lighter tan at the tips. There should be no sooty or black hair intermingled with any of the tan.
Disqualification: Any solid color or combination of colors other than blue and tan as described above. Any white markings other than a small white spot on the forechest that does not exceed 1 inch at its longest dimension.
Information from ytca about Parti-colored: Yorkshire Terrier Club of America (Awards)

When I returned to yorkies I had to figure this one out too - since I had never seen a parti in all my early years, not until I got on the Internet and started to see photos. I still have not seen one in person.
I would not call it politics since there really is no argument since we should be looking and following the standard. It is simple - JMO. I do have to say - I think parties are cute - but they are not to standard as it is written. If I am breeding I will stick to the standard.

Originally Posted by Woogie Man (Post 3209239)

I agree that starting off with the best stock you can acquire is the route to go. However, 'the best you can acquire' will vary widely from person to person.

If you take 2 open-pedigreed Yorkies (even nice ones) and put them together, you may get a nice pup or two, maybe not. You will not have anything to build on, though, no matter any one pup's qualities. There is no substitute for having a dog that is the result of well thought line breeding. With anything else, there are too many wild cards that will be expressed. I've seen it said that you likely won't live long enough to go any other route other than starting with quality line bred dogs and I do think it's true.

I didn't go the prescribed route but have been fortunate enough to acquire what I consider a quality breeding pair. My challenge now is to not squander what I've got and build something for the future.

I'm like a lot of you in that there isn't a lot of opportunity for getting started showing in my area. I'm mentor-less as far as show preparation goes, there's no breed club nearby to gain handling experience and I've had cold feet about getting into the ring unprepared.

With the litter I have now, I'm keeping a girl back as a prospect. I wish I was better prepared as I feel she has a chance, but she's the one I'm getting my feet wet with. I have been fortunate in recently meeting someone that has years of experience in showing and grooming Poodles and Yorkies, also some puppy match judgung. I took my girl to see him and he went over her point by point in evaluating her. It was good to see her picked apart by someone knowledgeable and get a good evaluation. He actually inquired about any males I might have from the litter for himself so I think he liked what he saw.

My point (if I have one LOL) is that it's extremely important to start with the best dogs you can. After that, you may have to tailor a path best suited for yourself, but you really have to get out there with your dogs to know if your breedings measure up.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3209272)

Remember the purpose of the YTCA is the "protector" of the standard; it's not to accept every variation of standard a breeder can produce. Pet owners may desire more variety, but variety in a dog breed is not necessarily a good thing for the breed, and after a while, they could start looking like mutts.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3209487)

As a breeder, you must realize when you decide to breed a certain type of dog, that there is a breed club that decides the standard. If you decide to make your own standard based on what you personally like and dislike, then you will have a tougher road, if what you desire, is respect.

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3209515)

If everyone just stuck to the standard, the yorkie would not even exist. The people who mixed all of those breeds to develop the yorkie, most likely ran into a lot of opposition too.

Originally Posted by puppylove11 (Post 3209542)

LOL! I can produce health records on my dogs. Can every member of the ytca do the same? How many of the ytca members do not do acid bile levels on their breeding stock? Many of them! How many of them breed stock with at least a grade 2 knee? Many of them! How many of them breed stock with bad bites, hernias, etc? Many of them! You amaze me at how blind you are when it comes to the ytca. I would also state many members of the ytca are making their own standard when they decide to enhance coat or other areas of their dog for showing. There are many people who would be appalled to know what areas are enhanced beside coat.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3209548)

What's your point? Are you saying that you are a better breeder than any member of the YTCA? Good for you, but I still believe that adhering to the breed standard is an important goal as well. Health always comes first in my book, but you are not breeding parti's for health, you are breeding them for looks.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3209548)

What's your point? Are you saying that you are a better breeder than any member of the YTCA? Good for you, but I still believe that adhering to the breed standard is an important goal as well. Health always comes first in my book, but you are not breeding parti's for health, you are breeding them for looks.

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 3209274)

Nope, not reaching. And no, I was not trying to compare the two...thus why I said HYPOTHETICALLY. I was trying to make sense of the statement and was used the first thing that came to mind as an example...apparently it was not a good example. Take my words for face value, as they were intended. I was not even remotely trying to insinuate that color and life threatening conditions were comparable. :rolleyes: Guess I should have thrown in a few more disclaimers to make that clear.

My point was, that if you CH a dog, based on the breed standard, it really doesn't amount to a hill of beans if in the very next generation, that dog is passing on undesireable traits or health issues--how much would that really 'validate' one's program.

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 3209299)

That's a very good point. Because I'm sure that video is perfectly representative of every single breeder/representative that steps into the ring with a dog, eh? Just as I'm sure that the BYB breeding the "Partis" that don't even resemble Yorkies and selling them for Rare at $5K a pop are representative of every single Parti breeder out there. Because if one person is doing it, then let's condemn the whole lot...

Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 3209367)

I will post one more time in this thread and then I'm done....Those that tear apart those that "enhance" a dog and claim those are the bad people and then those of you who take a parti carrier in the ring "knowing" it's wrong are no different than those that enhance. Maybe if you stop tearing down people trying to justify breeding outside the standard maybe there wouldn't be any arguments.
Why do some need to find reasons to pick people apart just to try and prove a point when I've seen many posts in this thread saying how enhancing is cheating, lying and getting away with something and then it's ok to bring in a parti carrier so how is that not cheating, lying and getting away with something? I see no difference....
Just saying....

Those that breed Parti's are never going to agree with those of us that stand behind the standard of the Yorkshire Terrier and visa versa but I see no difference in enhancing for show and knowingly taking in a Parti carrier in the ring because we all know what will show up in our breeding program whether or not it has that championship title. This should be for the betterment of the breed and passion for the breed and not profit.

Whether you enhance or show a parti carrier you know you are showing something that will crop up in your breeding program. Can I live with a lighter yorkie in my breeding program? Yes! Can I live with a Parti carrier or Parti in my breeding program? NO! Lighter yorkies are accepted in the show ring but Parti's are not so there ya have it! From my perspective at least.

Originally Posted by puppylove11 (Post 3209557)

First off I have not bred a litter of parti colored yorkies, lol. I will state a breeder who does the proper health testing on their breeding stock and their off springs are better breeders than the members of the ytca who do no health testing on their breeding stock or off springs! If all members of the ytca adhered to the breed standard there would be no reason for enhancing of any kind.

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3209592)

I'm not trying to justify "knowingly" showing a carrier, but this is not something new. years ago they just hid the faulty offspring and went on to show and breed the dogs.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3209513)

It's not the job of the YTCA to "control" various breeders and what they decide to breed, it the job to preserve and protect the standard. Why should they embrace something that they think is a flaw? There will always be those who want to breed what they see as unique or different, but this misses the whole point of purebred breeding.

Originally Posted by bchgirl (Post 3209616)

I don't quite understand the objection against showing a parti carrier..if it's the correct color to be shown...it's the correct color.

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3209579)

Do you know for sure that they are getting $5000 a dog? I'd sure like to know how they are doing it. Maybe a few years ago, but not now.

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3209569)

they need to accept the fact that partis are not going to go away just because they ignore them.

You know they saying, "if you can't beat em join em". Well they can't beat 'em, they wont go away.

Originally Posted by bjh (Post 3209631)

If someone had a exceptional parti carrier then I see nothing wrong with showing it but I would question what the motive is. Some people just want to champion a dog so they can get more money for the pups. If a parti carrier became a champion and that champion parti carrier was bred to a parti to create champion sired parti yorkies then that would not be improving the breed as set forth by the yorkie standard. I really understand the passion some breeders have for the parti yorkies and the biewers. Some of them are very beautiful but I see more poorly bred ones than quality ones but I guess it is the same way with the standard yorkies. I really wish there were some easy answers.

Originally Posted by bchgirl (Post 3209616)

I don't quite understand the objection against showing a parti carrier..if it's the correct color to be shown...it's the correct color.

Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 3209608)

Jeanie,

You may not try and justify it but others are that's the point I'm making. I never heard of parti yorkies until I came to YT. I'm sure it's not new just like enhancing isn't new but wrong is wrong no matter how you look at it, whether you knowingly enhance or show a parti carrier. There is no difference in enhancing and showing a parti carrier that's all I'm saying and why pick someone apart for enhancing when the one showing a known parti carrier is doing the same thing? That's all I'm saying :)
And I'm saying as long as the standard is written the way it's written I stand behind it and until it changes and that is what we should all strive for.
Donna

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3209676)

But it won't change unless someone pushes for change.

I can understand why it upsets YTCA members to have people knowingly showing the carriers. I agree with your arguments.

But since it is extremely difficult for parti breeders to get good breeding stock, since most show people won't sell to them, it is understandable why some parti breeders are showing the carriers in order to get good quality dogs to breed with.

not saying it is right, it's sort of like sneaking your bitch in heat into your neighbors back yard to be bred in order to produce a better dog. I'm just saying that I can understand why they are doing it.
And I myself might someday buy the offspring of one of those dogs, in rder to better my own dogs.

We hear all the time, you need to show your dogs, to make sure they are worthy of breeding, yet when someone does show their dog to make sure it is worthy of breeding they are bashed for doing it.

So I understand both sides of the issue. We're being told to show our dogs, then being told, but not in our show ring.

Can you at least try to understand why it is being done.

Originally Posted by bjh (Post 3209631)

If someone had a exceptional parti carrier then I see nothing wrong with showing it but I would question what the motive is. Some people just want to champion a dog so they can get more money for the pups. If a parti carrier became a champion and that champion parti carrier was bred to a parti to create champion sired parti yorkies then that would not be improving the breed as set forth by the yorkie standard. I really understand the passion some breeders have for the parti yorkies and the biewers. Some of them are very beautiful but I see more poorly bred ones than quality ones but I guess it is the same way with the standard yorkies. I really wish there were some easy answers.

Originally Posted by bjh (Post 3209610)

I am not a member of the YTCA but I have a lot of respect for the organization. I know some of it's members and I find they are all respectable. As far as I know the YTCA does not require specific tests for dogs but I think it would be up to the individual breeder to do what they think is best for their lines as far as screening. If a breeder wants to be unethical they will do it whether they are a member of the YTCA or not. You cannot judge all members just because of a few bad ones. Breeders can fake test records and x-rays, I have heard of it being done in other breeds so it could happen with any breed of dog. That is why there is so much emphasis put on knowing your breeder and researching lines. Even the best of breeders sometimes produce dogs that are not up to their expectations. Consistently breeding nice dogs is not a easy thing to do so I have a great respect for those that set their standards high and try to breed show quality yorkies.

As for the coat enhancing, I don't think it was ever stop so I just don't worry about it. A sound body is much more important than a coat that might be to light or to dark and I really think most of the judges know that too. There are good judges and bad judges just like there are good breeders and bad breeders. Sometimes it is the best dog that wins and sometimes it is the best handler. That's life.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3209513)

It's not the job of the YTCA to "control" various breeders and what they decide to breed, it the job to preserve and protect the standard. Why should they embrace something that they think is a flaw? There will always be those who want to breed what they see as unique or different, but this misses the whole point of purebred breeding.