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-   -   When is to early to deworm? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/breeder-talk/206681-when-early-deworm.html)

WinstonMom 06-26-2010 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3177161)
Question...if a puppy had coccidia, gardia etc (no symptoms)..would using a regular wormer rid this problems?
Fenbendazole (Panacur) has action against giardia, but the usual treatment is Flagyl. I don't know about coccidia, it is not prevalent in my area.

YorkieRose 06-26-2010 04:03 PM
Coccidia and giardia are a problem all over the US..at least that is what it looks like from reading forum threads..a stool check gives me peace of mind...I would just hate myself if I dropped the ball on something so basic, cheap and simple for my dogs. So many things can not be prevented..

bjh 06-26-2010 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3177188)
Sooooo, if you do not do a stool check, how do you know you are not selling puppies with these parasites? Not all puppies show any symptoms of these nasty things until coming under stress of a new home etc...
The bad thing about coccidia and giardia is that they do not always show up in a routine stool sample. Often it is not until the puppy/dog has an outbreak of diarrhea that is can be detected in a stool sample. I am sure you know that but others might not be aware of it. Any time a puppy has loose stools or mucousy stools they should be taken to the vet asap.

WinstonMom 06-26-2010 04:22 PM
Even when in the diarrhea stage, the recommended protocol is to submit 3 stool samples, as the shedding of the parasite in the stool is very intermittent. I really can't see that there would be any way of knowing before the fact if these parasites were present.

k Owensk9 06-26-2010 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3177191)
I'm sure Pat knows what is needed for each problem. She's been breeding a lot longer than most of us here. But, I do understand her question; if there is a wormer that would handle all Parasites.....While Albon is primarily used for Coccidiosis. It cang be used for other treatments (although, I've never known where it has been). Tonsillitis, pharyngitis, bronchitis, pnemonia, cystitis, nephritis, metritis, pyometra, mustular dermatitis, anal gland infections, abscesses, woulnd infections, bacterial enteritis, canine almonellosis. Albon should not be prescribed with any other med.

Giardai - Flagyll or Pancur
I read an artical in the AKC kennel gazette about Giardia and it spoke of Panacur (wormer-labeled for Cows-horses-goats-) active ingrediant 10% fenbendazole was 100 % effective while Flagyl was only 80% effective. Of course Panacur must be given 3 day in a row to be effective. This artical was written some 15 to 20 years ago--I'll see if I can find the artical--it was GOOD !!!

Mardelin 06-26-2010 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by k Owensk9 (Post 3177262)
I read an artical in the AKC kennel gazette about Giardia and it spoke of Panacur (wormer-labeled for Cows-horses-goats-) active ingrediant 10% fenbendazole was 100 % effective while Flagyl was only 80% effective. Of course Panacur must be given 3 day in a row to be effective. This artical was written some 15 to 20 years ago--I'll see if I can find the artical--it was GOOD !!!
Flagyl stays in the digestive tract, while Pancur doesn't. That is why Vets have currently turned to it. That and of course it does treat enteritis, why I use it for, as I've never had a case of Giardia. Pancur only has 10% Fenbendzole and used for large strongyles, pinworms and ascarids. You can olso obtain Fix Zole/Metronidazole/Flagyl on revival. The problem doing that is that it comes in 250mg capsoles and one needs to know the correct dosage per weight.

There is also something else on the market for treating Giardia as some strains have become resistent to Pancur.....can't remember what the name is, I'll look it up on my YTCA list.

bjh 06-26-2010 05:50 PM
How do dogs usually get giardia? None of my dogs have ever had it but I read where a lot of puppies get it.

Mardelin 06-26-2010 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjh (Post 3177300)
How do dogs usually get giardia? None of my dogs have ever had it but I read where a lot of puppies get it.
Usually contaminated water, ponds, etc. But, pups more than likely will contract it from eating feces, or passed on from their mother


Causes of Giardia in Dogs

WinstonMom 06-26-2010 05:59 PM
Apparently there is a vaccine for giardia, any feedback about safety and effectiveness of this?

Mardelin 06-26-2010 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinstonMom (Post 3177308)
Apparently there is a vaccine for giardia, any feedback about safety and effectiveness of this?
I read an article a while back, from what I recall, because the various strains it wasn't as effective as was expected.

YorkieRose 06-27-2010 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinstonMom (Post 3177218)
Even when in the diarrhea stage, the recommended protocol is to submit 3 stool samples, as the shedding of the parasite in the stool is very intermittent. I really can't see that there would be any way of knowing before the fact if these parasites were present.
No experince with the parasites, so I do appreciate this info..
I have been told by my vets that if I do an 8, 12wk stool check, I can be fairly sure the pups are "bug" free and since I have not gotten call backs, I guess it works for me...too old to change at this stage..thanks..

Cooper2010 06-27-2010 10:20 AM
Silly question maybe, but why are the tags on this thread? I've read the whole thing and it seems to be some disgreement on when, how and if to use a dewormer. I'm a bit confused as to why the tags are here. Is it because a member tried to rehome a dog some years back? Is that not acceptable? Or is that dog being used in a breeding program?

Not trying to question intent, I just don't really understand why?

btw, I'm using Advantage Multi for heartworm and flea prevention as both are huge problems here. I have read that Revolution is better, but I don't know.

JeanieK 06-27-2010 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinstonMom (Post 3177119)
Donna,

I am not at all arguing that all pups should be dewormed, I do not deworm my pups unless they are wormy. I have not had a pup with worms but that doesn't mean that I won't at some point. But a comment was made that someone had an "ICK" house and that they may "at this point have to treat their entire house". If someone said that to me, I would be extremely offended.
I was simply trying to make a point that it is, in fact, extremely easy to become infected with worms as well as countless other parasitic organisms and that it can happen to the cleanest of the clean.
Read post #172 You took what was said out of context. it is this type of misquoting that starts arguments.

Cooper2010 06-27-2010 02:54 PM
So no one can explain the tags?

JeanieK 06-27-2010 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooper2010 (Post 3177779)
Silly question maybe, but why are the tags on this thread? I've read the whole thing and it seems to be some disgreement on when, how and if to use a dewormer. I'm a bit confused as to why the tags are here. Is it because a member tried to rehome a dog some years back? Is that not acceptable? Or is that dog being used in a breeding program?

Not trying to question intent, I just don't really understand why?

btw, I'm using Advantage Multi for heartworm and flea prevention as both are huge problems here. I have read that Revolution is better, but I don't know.
This thread is not about rehoming a dog, it is a discussion on deworming puppies. It is not a matter of I believe this and you believe that, it is a matter of irresponsibly feeding poison to puppies withdout first determining if they need it.

If the adult dogs do not have worms, then the puppies will not have worms. And if the adult dogs have worms, then take care of that problem and there will be no reason to deworm the puppies 5 times.

Over exposer to pesticides causes cancer. Hopefully the people that were routinely deworming puppies, will change their way of doing things.

The tags are there so this thread will come up if someone does a search on any of those words.

Cooper2010 06-27-2010 03:29 PM
Then why is backyard/bad breeder there?

I can see the worm/deworm tag as having a place but the other things seem to be wrongly applied from what I've read.

Cooper2010 06-27-2010 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3178258)
This thread is not about rehoming a dog, it is a discussion on deworming puppies. It is not a matter of I believe this and you believe that, it is a matter of irresponsibly feeding poison to puppies withdout first determining if they need it.

If the adult dogs do not have worms, then the puppies will not have worms. And if the adult dogs have worms, then take care of that problem and there will be no reason to deworm the puppies 5 times.

Over exposer to pesticides causes cancer. Hopefully the people that were routinely deworming puppies, will change their way of doing things.

The tags are there so this thread will come up if someone does a search on any of those words.
With all due respect, I believe that is exactly what it is.

bjh 06-27-2010 04:13 PM
I know some people that bought dogs from well know show breeders and their dogs had coccidia and/or giardia. Anyone that has a large number of dogs is at risk of getting it no matter how clean they try to keep their place.

Cooper2010 06-27-2010 04:18 PM
I'm finding it hard to believe that a person who's been here since 2006 with over 2500 posts is all of the sudden a bad/backyard breeder over deworming methods.

It seems vindictive. Just my opinion.

It also leads me to believe that the tagging feature may be easily abused.

Mardelin 06-27-2010 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjh (Post 3178334)
I know some people that bought dogs from well know show breeders and their dogs had coccidia and/or giardia. Anyone that has a large number of dogs is at risk of getting it no matter how clean they try to keep their place.
Show people/BYBer/Puppy. The parasite is there, laying dormant in a dam and not in all dams. The stress of a pup being taken from it's mother/littermates and moving to a new home may be all that is needed to bring it out. The one thing that one needs to know is that once the coccidiossis is in ones home, you never get rid of it. And it has nothing to do with cleanliness or filth....it's there.

Mardelin 06-27-2010 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooper2010 (Post 3178342)
I'm finding it hard to believe that a person who's been here since 2006 with over 2500 posts is all of the sudden a bad/backyard breeder over deworming methods.

It seems vindictive. Just my opinion.

It also leads me to believe that the tagging feature may be easily abused.
I don't think the number of posts has anything to do with anything......

This forum is a place to share information. It may not be recieved by some posting within the thread, but it may help others that are reading the thread.

bjh 06-27-2010 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooper2010 (Post 3178342)
I'm finding it hard to believe that a person who's been here since 2006 with over 2500 posts is all of the sudden a bad/backyard breeder over deworming methods.

It seems vindictive. Just my opinion.

It also leads me to believe that the tagging feature may be easily abused.
What is the tagging feature? I haven't heard of that.

Cooper2010 06-27-2010 04:27 PM
I agree. From what I've read, some of those are warrantless based on this topic.

Cooper2010 06-27-2010 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjh (Post 3178349)
What is the tagging feature? I haven't heard of that.
If you run your mouse over the icon on the right where an attachment icon usually is, you'll see several references to one person.

If you look at the bottom of this page under post reply, there's a bookmark window, underneath is a tag window. It seems anyone can apply tags.

Cooper2010 06-27-2010 04:46 PM
I just clicked on edit tags and added "health" so anyone can do it.

WinstonMom 06-27-2010 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooper2010 (Post 3178342)
I'm finding it hard to believe that a person who's been here since 2006 with over 2500 posts is all of the sudden a bad/backyard breeder over deworming methods.

It seems vindictive. Just my opinion.

It also leads me to believe that the tagging feature may be easily abused.
I agree with this. I have not been on the forum very long and have tried to keep an open mind, but I see nothing here that should warrant some of the tags, like backyard breeder, or bad breeder. I don't know any of the people here so I base my opinions strictly upon what I read.

WinstonMom 06-27-2010 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3177813)
Read post #172 You took what was said out of context. it is this type of misquoting that starts arguments.
Nothing was exactly misquoted. I am simply saying that I feel that such comments, if made to me, would be considered offensive. Not trying to start an argument, just stating a fact.

Cooper2010 06-27-2010 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinstonMom (Post 3178403)
I agree with this. I have not been on the forum very long and have tried to keep an open mind, but I see nothing here that should warrant some of the tags, like backyard breeder, or bad breeder. I don't know any of the people here so I base my opinions strictly upon what I read.
Exactly. I've spent most of the time reading the NUMEROUS forums here, and I don't know anyone either. From what I've read, the bad breeder tags, etc should be edited by the person that put them there.

There is no need for that based soley on this topic.

My gut feeling is that someone didn't like what another said, so they applied the tag. There is always room for disagreement without hostility.

Cooper2010 06-27-2010 05:55 PM
Also, if anyone's noticed, the original poster has left the building.

JeanieK 06-27-2010 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjh (Post 3178334)
I know some people that bought dogs from well know show breeders and their dogs had coccidia and/or giardia. Anyone that has a large number of dogs is at risk of getting it no matter how clean they try to keep their place.
That is not the issue here. the issue is should puppies be dewormed routinely, without first determining if the have worms.


New research shows that it is not good and should not be done. Feeding poison to our puppies unnecessarily is not good. it causes other issues down the road. Why not just get a simple stool sample test done first.

One little test. And then if the puppies do have worms, you can treat all of your dogs, because if one has worms, chances are they all do, and you can prevent it the next time by keeping your adult dogs worm free, and you won't have to deworm the puppies.

it's about education, it's about new breeders learning from experienced breeders.


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