Jeanie I don't really do flea prevention per say. I've only had a couple. Only because I was set up at a show next to some working dog. And her dogs had them....she was using the blow dryer and guess what? They blew onto my dog. Went by the grocery store on the way back to the hotel. Picked up Dawn Orignal Formula. Bathed him in that....it was done.

I did have to deworm my group once, when I brought home a girl that had them. Even the pups at 6 weeks of age. Using NemexII. I didn't as a preventative. NemexII is very mild, no cramping, no nothing. But, again I don't do it as a preventative. I only take in a sample of the entire litter, to ease the minds of my potential families. But, have never had any litters test positive.

I trust my vet, He makes reccomendations, but does not push if I decline. I know that when it comes to whelping that his expertise is limited. So I turn to breeders for advice and information.

I realize that vets like to push products, and yearly vaccinations, it's good money for them. But he knows that I do not believe in yearly vaccinations so he doesn't push. Some vets refuse to see them, if they are not current on their vaccinations.

I used the Dawn dishsoap once on a pregnant girl, it worked great. One bath and they were gone.

I wormed the entire bunch just one time, when one buyer said her dog had giardia, including the 6 week old litter I still had. Went through the entire program of albon and panacur.

I wondered at the time how her puppy could have it when none of the rest of the dogs showed any signs. 5 weeks later, I sold the younger pups, that had been wormed several times, and one of those buyers said the puppy had worms. So decided it really didn't matter. some vets are determined to sell worming meds.

Now, if I suspected worms, I would take in a stool sample before doing anything. But out of all the puppies that I have sold there were only the 2 that reported worms and I still question that.

You know when administering Albon, that no other med can be administered at the same either. It can cause, allergic reaction, damage and/or death.

Again, I do take a sample in. Always add a copy of the result into the baby book I give to my new families. Within the book is my contract, which states, that if worms are detected by their vet, on the initial exam, I will pay for the meds. Simple as that. My clients call me as soon as they've had their initial vet exam and never, never have a case of worms been reported. But, if they did, what's a few dollars. Even though I hate needles meds to be adminstered and will always explain that to my families.

Something to think about. Apparently even some dogs that are on preventatives are still getting heartworms

The Latest News on the Heartworm Epidemic
Posted on January 18th, 2010 by FindRetrievers.com Admin

Prevention and treatment of Heartworms in our canine companions has become quite complicated in the last several years. As you can see by looking at the following Heartworm Incidence Survey Map published by the American Heartworm Society (AHS), the rate of Heartworm infected dogs has greatly increased since 2001. These surveys are requested every 3 years by the AHS from over 40,000 veterinary clinics around the nation. Another survey will be released in 2010. http://www.heartwormsociety.org/veterin ... slide.html

In November of 2008 the AHS issued a warning attributed to a rise in mosquito populations for pet owners to continue year-round heartworm protection. “The risk from the increased mosquito population makes the need for prevention even greater this year,” says Dr. Sheldon Rubin, American Heartworm Society president and Chicago area practitioner.

American Heartworm Society | News Releases

What is not being released by the AHS, which is sponsored by large animal pharmaceutical companies such as Merial, Pfizer, and Bayer, is that many of these heartworm positive dogs were already on heartworm preventatives.

While Ivermectin resistance has already been reported in many nematodes, previous studies show no reports of resistance in filarial nematodes such as Dirofilaria immitis (parasitic roundworm called heartworm). The Merck Veterinary Manual already states, “…there are reports of ivermectin resistance in Cooperia oncophora , C punctata , and Haemonchus placei . Anthelmintic resistance among nematode parasites of cattle is possibly more widespread than realized and needs more investigation.” Is the recent outbreak of heartworms in dogs currently on preventatives a sign of filarial nematode resistance to Ivermectin in particular areas of the country?

Many studies must be done in order to determine if the current epidemic is due to Avermectin resistance in D. Immitis, but we can be sure that there is something going on in the Mississippi delta with large numbers of dogs on preventatives becoming heartworm infected.

If this is the case, then what are a pet owner’s choices for prevention of heartworms? As stated in the Merck Veterinary Manual “When resistance to the recommended dose rate of ivermectin appears, moxidectin, at its recommended dose rate, is usually still effective. However, there is cross-resistance between the avermectins and the milbemycins, and the use of either subgroup will select for macrocyclic lactone resistance.”

http://merckveterinarymanual.com/mvm/in ... 191506.htm

Commercially Available Preventatives

MOXIDECTIN based: (can be given to heartworm-positive pets with no adverse side affects)

• Advantage-Multi by Bayer (2.5 mg/kg Moxidectin) Topical application controls Heartworms, Fleas, Hookworms, Roundworms, Whipworms
• Pro-Heart 6 injectable (previously removed from the market by the FDA) made by Fort Dodge a division of Wyeth which has merged with Pfizer. Controls Heartworms and Hookworms.

IVERMECTIN based: (no adverse reaction if this medication is given to a dog that is positive for heartworms)

• Heartgard and Heartgard Plus by Merial (.006 mg/kg Ivermectin) Oral heartworm preventative. Heartgard Plus also controls roundworms and hookworms
• Iverhart Plus by Virbac (.006 mg/kg Ivermectin) Oral - heartworm, roundworm and hookworms. Iverhart Max also controls tapeworms.
• Tri-Heart Plus by Intervet/Schering Plough (n/s) Oral - heartworm, roundworm and hookworm.

MILBEMYCIN based: (can cause problems if given to a dog that is positive for heartworm infection. Because the larvae die much faster with Milbemycin, it can create a shock to the dog’s system)

• Interceptor by Novartis (.5 mg/kg) Oral - heartworms, roundworms, hookworms and whipworms
• Sentinel by Novartis (.5 mg/kg) Oral - heartworm, flea, roundworm, hookworms, and whipworms

SELAMECTIN based: (safe to use in heartworm-infected animals)

• Revolution by Pfizer ( 6 mg/kg) Topical - heartworms, fleas, ticks, ear mites, sarcoptic mange

Treatment

Recent research has LED to the discovery of a parasite called Wolbachia that lives symbiotically inside heartworms. Studies indicate that this parasite contributes to the adverse effects of both heartworm infection and heartworm treatment, including inflammation, embolism and allergic reaction. Treatment with doxycycline to kill the Wolbachia parasite weakens the heartworms and makes them unable to reproduce which lessens their adverse effects on the body and greatly reduces the chance of adverse reaction during heartworm treatment.

New studies published in late 2008 clearly indicate that treatment with a combination of weekly ivermectin and daily doxycycline given intermittently will sterilize the heartworms, prevent the dog from being infective to other dogs, speed up the death of the worms prior to (or in place of) Immiticide treatment, limit inflammation and damage caused by the worms presence, and reduce the chance of serious adverse reaction from Immiticide treatment. All of these effects are greater when the two drugs are used together than when either is given alone.

Three studies used a protocol of ivermectin (Heartgard) given weekly at the normal monthly heartworm preventative dose (6 mcg/kg), combined with doxycycline at the rate of 10 mg/kg/day for weeks 1-6, 10-11, 16-17, 22-25, and 28-33 (the end of the studies). The findings show these results:

Reduction of adult worms was as follows:
• 8.7% for Doxycycline only
• 20.3% for Ivermectin only
• 78.3% for Ivermectin + Doxcycline
• 92.8% for Ivermectin + Doxycycline + Immiticide
• 100% for Immiticide alone

Mosquitoes that fed on blood from DOXY-treated dogs had L3 normal in appearance but were not infective for dogs. Preliminary observations suggest that administration of Doxycycline and Ivermectine for several months prior to (or without) MEL will eliminate adult HW with less potential for severe thromboembolism than MEL alone.

Heartworm and Wolbachia: therapeutic implications. [Vet Parasitol. 2008] - PubMed result

I was told by my breeder ( a long time show breeder) to start the Albon and give it for 10 days, To start the panacur 5 days after starting the albon and to give it for 5 days, therefore ending them both at the same time.

Oh give it up that's a bunch of crap. Yeah the vets want money that is their job. You want money too right? Then what is the problem with taking a sample to the vet to be sure. Is $15.00 that important to you.

Do what you do, that's your biz but don't crap on everyone else for giving advise to have the op seek her vets opinion. Good grief!

If you ever have reason to administer it again. Do a search and please talk to your vet. I found this out the hard way, with one of my first yorkies.......

Now you want to tell the op to go to the vet??? WOW

I respect and appreciate your advice. If I ever have to treat again I will research it.

nope $15 isnt that much..but then again i do like saving money 15x7 could be a nice chunk to hold on too..

miss attitude

yes the vets want money and they will get it any way they can...they tell u lets do a fecal either way..but thats their job..to sell you stuff

i d rather take care of it my self and have no need to run poop to the vet..

yup im tellin her since it some much mixed info..to call her vet and ask his opinion on what she should do..

and as all docs/vets they will tell her to come in and lets talk..and she will walk out with owing more $$$$$ then necessary

Partial Quote

Interesting info, Jeanie. I wanted to comment on the part quoted.

This is not to dispute the info, but I've read of using several variations of treatment. The rate of killing the heartworms varies but all seem effective. It seems to depend on how long a person will accept their dog being heartworm positive, but the faster the kill, the more risk to the dog.

Immiticide is the standard vet treatment. It kills very quickly but the fast kill can cause pulmonary embolisms (hope that's correct) and the dog must be kept confined for the entire period of treatment.

Ivermectin alone is what I've seen the most about. The amount and frequency of dosage will determine the kill rate. Using ivermection in only the preventative dose monthly will kill heartworms, but it can take up to 2 years of the dog showing positive for them. It doesn't actually kill them, but kills the larvae so puts a stop to the infestation. It also will render the adult worms unable to reproduce and will shorten the life span of them. The dog will flush them out slowly and has much less risk of effects from expelling them than with a faster kill. Using ivermection is the first step in the standard vet protocol, too, in order to kill the larvae.

One other thing I found interesting in your post was the questioning of these (heartworm) parasites becoming resistant. I have recently been reading about how some recommend switching de-wormers periodically to avoid resistance by those (roundworm, hookworm, tapeworm) parasites. There is a little info out there if you google something like 'rotating de-wormers in dogs'.

That would be MRS. to you young lady. Tells me a lot about your breeding program also...... How sad:(

Tammy,

What has been said is find a vet that you can trust that is vetting for the love of the animal. Yes, they are out there. Not all are out to nickle and dime you.

Taking a sample in is the responsible thing and in the best interest in the pups. But, like I said if you administer heartworm, you have nothing to worry about. Deworming is needless.

Doing a collective sample on a litter only cost as one. So, you don't have to 7x15

WOW, I can't EVEN BELIEVE you call yourself a breeder!:mad: I am appalled! When one is in any kind of business, such as being a vet, yes the objective is to make money, HOWEVER, being a breeder it YOUR responsibility to take the advice of your vet ALONG with the education you have and make ANEDUCATED decision on how to raise your puppies and adults!

If your vet just wants money, FIND ANOTHER ONE! You have gone beyond the point of WANTING to learn. I realize what we used to do back in the day, but through modern technology and current medicine, new things evolve. For you to raise your puppies & adults the way it used to be, is hurting your breeding program, I suggest you do more research and LEARN things change!

I own an auto body repair facility, and years ago cars were painted with enamel & lacquer. Since then, technology has changed, now cars are base coat, clear coat. So you change with the flow, yes you can still use that nasty enamel & lacquer, but why, the new way is so much better and safer for the environment and my employees, so that is why I choose to change, not that I had to, but if a way is better, I am all for it!

[QUOTE=tammy8833;3173995]nope $15 isnt that much..but then again i do like saving money 15x7 could be a nice chunk to hold on too..

miss attitude

yes the vets want money and they will get it any way they can...they tell u lets do a fecal either way..but thats their job..to sell you stuff

i d rather take care of it my self and have no need to run poop to the vet..[/QUOTE]

SO let me ask you, how do you BAT test at home? How do you test your dam & sire for STD's at home? Do you do your own c-sections as well? Just asking since it seems to be SUCH A JOB to run feces to the vet!:rolleyes:

I can understand the hesitancy to use heartworm preventatives because of their toxicity, but we are talking about worms in the heart here! As stated above, using the slow kill method it takes about two years. During that time your dog will be heartworm positive. It may shorten lifespan of the worms, etc., but that isn't exactly synonymous with halting the disease. You still have worms in your dog's heart and there is n oguarantee that disease won't progress. Standard of care is still Immidicide therapy for young, healthy dogs with (I think) stages 1 and 2. I think the new research about Ivermectin is great, but there are a lot (the majority) of cases where Immidicide is still recommended.

Also, there is a lot of information about heartworms not surviving at temps. below 57 degrees. Well, that may be the case in the lab, but here in Michigan where we freeze for months, there were heartworm positive dogs that were only off of prevention in the winter. A lot of vets here strongly suggest year-round meds and yearly testing (because no drug works 100% of the time).

And as for vets being money hungry, I can't disagree. Some are.
If your vet is, find a new one.
I am really tired of all vets getting a bad name because they want to run tests, etc. It is their job. Some aren't interested in handing over drugs with testing. Many of them do give services away even if the client doesn't realize it just because they love the animals. Then they have to face clients...who think they are money hungry and don't care. I really wish they got more respect. Of course they want to make money. They have families to feed! And many of them are still in debt years after school. That doesn't mean they base their recommendations on the fact that they like money. It means they are doing their job. They don't carry around crystal balls and they can't even talk to their patients.

Obviously Money comes first. Now I am all for saving money but not by pouring poison into infant puppies when it is unnecessary.

If you really want to save money, make sure your adult dogs are worm free, because that is where the puppies are getting the worms.

Absolutely, also testing your lines for the really heavy duty stuff. If you can't do that, don't breed. Running just the CERFs and OFA is up around $500.00 dollars......

You are so right, had my vet not run a coagulation when I wanted her spayed, because she had developed problems after a whelp. She'd have bled out.

If a breeder is educating their self, working with a good vet. You learn what tests are necessary and which vets are running unncessary tests.

you only need to test one of the puppies. If one has them, then they all have them. if its positive THEN you can worm them. I see no reason to worm "just in case".

A vets "job" isn't to sell you stuff. A good vet's job is to medically care for animals, not see how much they can test, offer, and charge you. If that's what your vet does then he's not a good one, and i've look for another.

Also all docs/vets do not charge for just walking in the door. Mine don't. I can call her and ask her anything if need be. Or i can go in and speak with her real quick if i have a problem. She doesn't charge me for every little thing.

--

I've read this entire thread and at first i could believe that it had gotten so long. But as i read through some of the posts i understood. So much bad information was given out here that it had to be corrected so others won't get the wrong idea.

Medication should not be given out "just in case". worming puppies, especially at 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 weeks old, is ridiculous. If your bitches are worm free then your puppies will be worm free. Treat the situation before a problem arises. Don't willingly and regularly give chemicals to young tiny puppies. it is NOT protocol. If you did your research you would know that the protocol has changed and vaccines should NOT be given any earlier then 8-9 weeks old. They should get only two more vaccines after that at 12 and 16 weeks old. Rabies shouldn't be given until the pup is a little older (4-6 months) and never at the same time as another vaccine.

ETA: Some are not willing to hand out drugs without testing because they want your dog to be safe.

because i choose another method of worming and choose NOT to use the vet for every little thing doesnt make me a BAD BREEDER...no my vet isnt all about money..BUT i will save what i know i can...so i prefer like alot of other breeders who just wont say anything..to do to it MYSELF

[quote=jackson25;3174023]never needed a c sections
no needs to do std 's when i use my own stud n female who havent been with others but my own

[quote=tammy8833;3174088]I use my own studs and females too. But, I do have them checked for infections anyway. Have blood tests run on both of them to make sure they are in the best of health. Make sure that there is nothing that can cause harm to a new litter. Running a smear on both male and female is insurance against that. They can pick up other infections other than sexually transmitted diseases. Infections that will become sexually transmitted when they are bred. There are short-cuts that should never be taken when breeding. And or raising a litter.

1st paragraph
WELL THEN YOU ARE JUST DEWORMING ALL OF THEM FOR NOTHING ARENT CHA?..YOU SHOULD TEST THEM ALL IF YOU ARE TESTING ONE MAKE SURE YOU DONT PUT CHEMICALS IN ONE THAT DOESNT HAVE WORMS

2nd
BUT THEY ALSO NEED SOMETHING TO HELP MAKE PROFITS

3rd
I CAN CALL MINE ANYTIME FOR FREE AS WELL AND THEY HAVE SEEN ME FOR FREE OF CHARGE AS WELL
--

Nope, if one pup in the litter has worms they all have them. They are together and so does the mom, she's been diapering them and/or has passed the worms onto them.

Deworming unnessarily leads me to believe breeders have not clue what is happening with their dogs.

i was being sarcastic

You can do the worming yourself, but it is not necessary if your adult dogs are worm free.

You want to save money then stop giving your puppies meds unnecessarily. Then maybe you can afford to pay for one stool exam.

if you learned nothing else here today, you should at least know by now that All Dogs do not have worms. And dogs can be kept worm free. That's a start.