I still want to know why the tags are there. The issue is being curiously avoided.

I thought I answered that.


Tags are words for search engines to pick up when some does a search. So if someone does a search for Tammy Harrison this thread will come up.

I do believe that tags are abused and personally i don't think they should be allowed.

I dont think they should be either

I agree that puppies should not be wormed unless they have worms. I think this thread is a learning tool for those that don't know about worms, coccidia and giardia. Puppy buyers and new breeders need to be made aware of the dangers of coccidia and giardia because they can be deadly if not treated immediately. Over the years I have talked to a number of people that lost puppies to coccidia and giardia. Some people get a false security when they worm their puppies, whether by themselves or by a vet, so then when the pup gets sick and gets diarrhea they assume it might be because of the worm medicine but in reality the pups could have coccidia or giardia. It is something you just can't ignore.

I'm just learning about this tagging my self---wow I could go and tag anyone that disagreed with me ! sounds silly--I could say anyone was a bad breeder---right ? My husband and I disagree some time that doesn't make him a bad husband ! Come on people--there are persons asking questions--really needing an answer--we are running them off with our bickering ! that's crazy---can't you just say--"I disagree with this comment-- I would suggest doing XYZ " That would be a more professional comment----I have strong opinions but I TRY to never force it on others. NO ONE LIKES TO BE CALLED A BAD BREEDER---this gets ones dander UP !! I really enjoy good honest talk about our breeding programs and medications and such--Can't we do that ? :rolleyes:

Your exactly correct. Your dogs could be clean as can be and a bird could drink out of their water dish and give them Coccidia or giardia. In my opinion it's how the breeder handles the situation with the new owner of the puppy or dog. If we refuse to believe our dog could have giardia that's the problem. At any moment we could have a puppy break with anything---it's how we handle the matter--that's MY OPINION !

I don't think there's any single answer for deworming protocols. Even when doing searches, you'll find a variety of answers.

The following that I pasted is the most common rationale that I've heard.

"Roundworms have an odd life cycle. There are dormant larvae in the tissues of most adult dogs and these can be activated around the 42nd day of the pregnancy and then migrate to the fetuses in the uterus and become active infections. Due to this, and the apparent safety of fenbendazole for use during pregnancy, some reproductive specialists advise giving fenbendazole during the the last stages of pregnancy to try to interrupt this tissue migration. Fenbendazole must be given for three days in a row to be effective and the dose is 50mg/kg per day for roundworms in dogs. The suspension from of fenbendazole (Panacur Suspension tm, Safeguard Suspension tm) are 100mg/ml, so the dose would be approximately 1ml per 4 lbs of body weight. I haven't actually seen any studies to verify that this works well but it is a good theory and should be safe to try. The recommendations in the Merck manual seem a little excessive, to me, but fenbendazole is pretty safe and it probably wouldn't cause any harm to give it from the 40th day of pregnancy to the 14th day of gestation. "

From this link.

Parasitic Worms found in Dogs

The Merck manual study that's referred to above is this.

"While it has long been recognized that transplacental and transmammary infection of ascarids and hookworms could be prevented through prophylactic treatment of pregnant dogs, no drugs are currently approved for this use. However, the effectiveness of this approach with different drugs approved for parasite control in dogs has been well documented. Daily treatment of pregnant dogs with fenbendazole from the 40th day of gestation through the 14th day of lactation has been shown to inhibit T. canis larvae in tissues, thereby preventing or greatly reducing the incidence of infection in puppies.19 Alternatively, studies have shown that treatment with ivermectin on day 0, 30, 60 of gestation and 10 days post whelping, reduced the adult T. canis worm burden in pups by 100% and prevented the shedding of eggs.20 In yet another study, treatment with selamectin at 10 and 40 days both before and after parturition was effective in reducing T. canis fecal egg counts in both pups and their dams, and adult worms in the pups."

From this link...

Guidelines for Veterinarians: Prevention of Zoonotic Transmission of Ascarids and Hookworms of Dogs and Cats

While I wouldn't follow what is described in the last quote, I do think it's safe to go with the protocol in the first quote. As that quote states, worms may be dormant in a dam's system until activated during pregnancy and could migrate to the pups. Not all wormers are safe to use with pregnant dams, so that needs to be checked before use.

One thing that stands out to me in this thread is how wormers are referenced as poison that will harm the pups. Most wormers are considered safe if used appropriately and the 'poison' issue is kind of a red herring IMO.

One thing I would like to address is the use of heartworm prevention. While necessary, these pesticides have a much higher toxicity value than dewormers and most recommendations I've seen do not advise using them before a pup is 5 months old. I think many breeders and new pup owners are starting pups out on this much too young and, to me, this is a dangerous practice.

[QUOTE=Woogie Man;3179230]I don't think there's any single answer for deworming protocols. Even when doing searches, you'll find a variety of answers.

The following that I pasted is the most common rationale that I've heard.

"Roundworms have an odd life cycle. There are dormant larvae in the tissues of most adult dogs and these can be activated around the 42nd day of the pregnancy and then migrate to the fetuses in the uterus and become active infections. Due to this, and the apparent safety of fenbendazole for use during pregnancy, some reproductive specialists advise giving fenbendazole during the the last stages of pregnancy to try to interrupt this tissue migration. Fenbendazole must be given for three days in a row to be effective and the dose is 50mg/kg per day for roundworms in dogs. The suspension from of fenbendazole (Panacur Suspension tm, Safeguard Suspension tm) are 100mg/ml, so the dose would be approximately 1ml per 4 lbs of body weight. I haven't actually seen any studies to verify that this works well but it is a good theory and should be safe to try. The recommendations in the Merck manual seem a little excessive, to me, but fenbendazole is pretty safe and it probably wouldn't cause any harm to give it from the 40th day of pregnancy to the 14th day of gestation. "

From this link.

Parasitic Worms found in Dogs

The Merck manual study that's referred to above is this.

"While it has long been recognized that transplacental and transmammary infection of ascarids and hookworms could be prevented through prophylactic treatment of pregnant dogs, no drugs are currently approved for this use. However, the effectiveness of this approach with different drugs approved for parasite control in dogs has been well documented. Daily treatment of pregnant dogs with fenbendazole from the 40th day of gestation through the 14th day of lactation has been shown to inhibit T. canis larvae in tissues, thereby preventing or greatly reducing the incidence of infection in puppies.19 Alternatively, studies have shown that treatment with ivermectin on day 0, 30, 60 of gestation and 10 days post whelping, reduced the adult T. canis worm burden in pups by 100% and prevented the shedding of eggs.20 In yet another study, treatment with selamectin at 10 and 40 days both before and after parturition was effective in reducing T. canis fecal egg counts in both pups and their dams, and adult worms in the pups."

From this link...

Guidelines for Veterinarians: Prevention of Zoonotic Transmission of Ascarids and Hookworms of Dogs and Cats

While I wouldn't follow what is described in the last quote, I do think it's safe to go with the protocol in the first quote. As that quote states, worms may be dormant in a dam's system until activated during pregnancy and could migrate to the pups. Not all wormers are safe to use with pregnant dams, so that needs to be checked before use.

One thing that stands out to me in this thread is how wormers are referenced as poison that will harm the pups. Most wormers are considered safe if used appropriately and the 'poison' issue is kind of a red herring IMO.

One thing I would like to address is the use of heartworm prevention. While necessary, these pesticides have a much higher toxicity value than dewormers and most recommendations I've seen do not advise using them before a pup is 5 months old. I think many breeders and new pup owners are starting pups out on this much too young and, to me, this is a dangerous practice.[/

Mine were 4 or 5 months old before My vet started them on heartworm

Just in case there is some confusion, some of the breeders were saying they give the heartworm meds to the mother two weeks after the puppies are whelped and the puppies are getting the meds through mothers milk. Prior to restarting the heartworm meds, mother has to be retested.

yep..im in full support of that...start at 2 weeks with a mild wormer....if any of my pups are really small, (i have a 5 week old who is 2 weeks premature and a orphan)..i will worm her at 6 weeks (4 weeks).

It always amazes me when new or realtively new breeders will not even consider what a long time experienced breeder, has to say. Some of the breeders on here have forgotten more than the rest of us will ever know about breeding. They could write a book on it. And yet they are willing to share their expertise with us for free. And still, their advice is casually dismissed.

Why on earth would anyone feed poison to a puppy unnecessarily? Knowing that it can cause cancer later in life.

And why, if your adult dogs are worm free, do you think your puppies have worms? Where did they get them, if not from the adults?

And why would you not have a stool sample checked to make sure, so if they do have worms, you can treat all of your dogs, to stop the on going infestation? Because if your puppies have worms, your adult dogs do also.

More info on over vaccinating for those who really want what is best for the puppies.

Stop the Shots - NOW - Home

That's YOUR opinion---some people believe other wise---ME ! And several others it looks like---I worm my pups regular--puppies DIE from worms if not treated. I've bred dogs for 28 years--I've a lot of experiance . I'm not telling you what to do so WHY are you telling some of us what to do ??? Sounds like a Shark attack !! From now on I'll post "Shark attack" when some one crosses the line !!! Shark attack. :thumbdown

It may as well be just an opinion, but there is plenty of research on the pros of not injecting chemicals if not necessary, just like over vaccinating. I am in no way trying to TELL someone what to do and not to do, just giving advice on how times change and with research and education there becomes better ways to do things. If I can prevent my puppies from obtaining cancer and any other complications as they grow, I am all for it! Taking a stool sample to my vet and having it tested is not hard for me to do.

This is a nice comment---your not attacking anyone just stating your opinion. thank you :)

I looked at this web site and it's OVERSEAS !!! MY goodness if I din't vaccinate for Parvo---I'd loose every puppies born ! Parvo is a VERY BAD problem in Oklahoma--I vaccinate Every puppy at 5 weeks and 7 weeks---I do NOT HAVE A PARVO PROBLEM !!! If you want to risk Parvo--be my guest ! I don't----I can't tell you how many times I've gone to the Vet and walked in on a case of parvo---thank goodness I vaccinated my pups I was taking for HEALTH PAPERS ___ no they were NOT sick !!

Thanks, I am not trying to attack anyone at all....I feel we are all here for the best interest of our yorkies. If someone does things a bit different than the other, so be it. Posting research for one to read up on is all we can do, if one still chooses to do things the way they have, one is entitled, I for one am always up for learning a new way or procedure. Not that children and yorkies are of the same, but I wouldn't give a child Tylenol without first taking their temperature...kinda the same way I feel about worming, I wouldn't give a puppy dewormer without first testing the stool.:)

The advice given here concerning worming has been quite educational. If a person uses their common sense the cycle of possible worm infestation is quite clear….Find the source and attack the problem from there, this will eliminate the problem, for the most part…..No one here ever stated that worming a puppy is unnecessary or a bad thing. The question is *IS* it necessary. A stool(s) check would be the safest way to determine this for the pups well being. To continually worm a pup when there may be no need is senseless. The pups immune system is immature and very vulnerable at such a young age to be exposed to toxins, wormers are made to kill parasites, that would be a toxin.

To continually do something just because “that’s the way I always do it” is totally irresponsible….The way we do things has and will change, evolve, and improve, and along the way hopefully we will learn from this new information and adapt to these improved and safer ways of doing things.... Once you make the decision to change, you have to be educated first on what the problem is and secondly how to fix it. You can’t change what you don’t know…..

My word, if people did what was easier for themselves or they where motivated by their fears without at least doing the stool sample first then you might as well give yourself a nice big swig of that wormer, after all you *may* have pinworms too, and it’s always better to be safe than sorry…..

this is not JUST MY opinion. This is fact based on actual research by veterinarians and from experience of long time breeders. When one thinks they know everything, they cannot be taught.

And 28 years ago, that was the protocal. Now we know better. And we have these new fangled contraptions called computers, where we cn look up the latest information.

I have nwever had a pujppy die from worms because I have never had a puppy that had worms, because my adjult dogs do not have wormsd.

Puppies do not jujst get worms. They have to have been transmitted to them by their mothers.

if your puppies have worms, the mothers have worms and if the mothers have worms and they are in your house, then you have worm eggs in your, exposing your family members and guests to worms.

THOSE ARE FACTS Not opinions.

Again just my opinion, and how I vaccinate....but can I invite you to take a look at this?:)
Dr-Dodds-ChangingVaccProtocol

It does not matter where the information came from, dogs are dogs no matter where they live.

Vaccinating your puppies at 5 weeks is once again injecting something into their bodies that is not necessary. They still have their mothers immunity at 5 weeks, and therefore would have been immune to the parvo anyway.

The antibodies that they get from their mother recognize the vaccine as something they need to destroy and therefore it is totally useless. All of that information is in the article that I posted.

I can see that you are not willing to learn from up to date research. But perhaps others that stumble upon this thread are more open to learning.

So the information is not meant for you, it is meant for others.

I'm following my vets advise--vaccinating at 5 weeks and 7 weeks for Parvo---I don't care who wrote what about vaccine or wormer _I'm following my vets advise and my own opinion. Hopefully anyone looking at this thread can see and follow any thing they please--I know I do ! ;)

Me too! Has your vet advised you of the immunities in momma's milk and what those antibodies from momma's milk does for the puppy? Not at all saying you have to change your way's, just asking.:)

Oh yes my Vet did tell me all about that ! As we all know 2 or 3 week old pups don't seem to get parvo because the mom has given them the natural immunity---I'll try to explain how my Vet did--he used a graph I'll used numbers since I can't do a graph on this --- say at birth pups nurse and their immunity is at number 10 but each day as they get older the number drops 9-8-7-6 etc. And say at number 5 this is moms ammunity is gradullly going away--by number 4 the pups are at risk of Parvo--distemper etc. then they are exposed to something---then WHAM ! Sick pups. Ok the hard part is figuring out when the pups are getting to 5 and vaccinating. This is different with every pup---if ya have a litter of yorkies say 3 pups---they will get more of the first milk that has the "good stuff" that prevents Parvo etc. and say you have a litter of Dobermans say 10 pups those 10 pups don't get as much "good stuff" or first milk and they could get below that number 5 real fast. Of course this all depends on if your pups are exposed to Parvo-distemper etc. SOOOO one must gamble so to speak--when to vaccinate ! In Oklahoma we have big outbreaks of Parvo---distemper is almost unheard of (as far as I know here). We live in Very rural Oklahoma--coyotes, fox- and other animals carry and die of Parvo. I'm not much of a Gambler--so I vaccinate, Dr. Robert (BOB) Page developed an wonderful parvo vaccine(he and someone else--I think it was Dr. Black not sure on this ) called Neopar Parvo vaccine. I traveled to Tennesse to visit Dr. Page and he is the one that told me to vaccinate my puppies at 5 weeks old as his vaccine over rides the mothers antibiodies and causes the puppy to develope his own immunity. I'm sure Dr. Page can explain it sooooo much better than I can. So this is my feelings on the matter--we live in a parvo prone area. I vaccinate with neopar vaccine at 5 weeks old and at 7 weeks old. Then when I take pups to the Vet for health papers they are safe if a parvo dog is at the vet that day. Or when I ship a puppy it's safe from being exposed by some other puppy thats being shipped the same day as my pups. If puppies are exposed to parvo--you wont need to worry about allergies, cancer, or anything else as they will be dead withen 3 or 4 days at most. May be sooner. Parvo is DEADLY !! My daughter worked at a Vet, I've assisted my Vet in birthing, some C-sections--other things that's happened over the last 28 years and a lot has happened believe me ! I've used and still use several vets. Some are excellent on cleaning teeth, some excellent on c-sections---But none come close to Dr. Page understanding vaccinations !!! NONE OF THEM . I hope this explains my OPINION !
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thum bup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

my goodness I should have looked on the internet before I posted---here is a good site for Neopar and explaination of the vaccine. www.neotechvaccines.com It explains far better than I can ! And it works !!!

Mary,

You are so right, vaccinating at such a young age, is supressing mother's immunities. Actually leaving the pups at greater risk at contracting Parvo.

I have many exhibitor/breeder friends that either live in Oklahoma and/or travel their frequently to dog shows. None have every had a case of Parvo, but then they do follow the vaccination protocol that has been adopted at the top Vet Colleges in the country.

I do understand the fear of taking pups into the vets office. But, it can be arranged with your vet to have them seen after hours and examined in the vet's personal office. Or, calling ahead, making sure an examining room available and sterilized before you go in.

In addition vaccinating at a younger age there is a greater chance of subjecting yorkie pups to vaccinosis....yep! it does happen, losing your pups.

Parvo---it's bad--real bad
 

I give up ! You know best I guess ! (not really) If ya ever get a big case of the Parvo--email me I'll be glad to give you Dr.Page's email /web site or steer ya to Revival (revivalanimal.com) that carries his vaccine. I'd rather risk loosing a pup to vaccine than have parvo--BLOODY POOP, Vomiting---and death in a few days. Yes I had PARVO in my dogs back in the 1980's--I'm telling ya--you dont want it !!!!! Of course that's my OPINION. :(

I remember when parvo popped up...I did not go to a dog show for one full year..and my best friend who had a specials stayed home 18 mos..there was no vaccine.
While others had problems, none of our dogs came up with parvo..we followed strick rules. Parvo is not airborne, when we went to the vet, shoes were removed before coming home...I kept several pairs in the truck, plus the carrier was not brought back in the house...it went to the back yard and was washed in chlorox...nothing came back into my house except the dogs..and they were never allowed on the clinic floor...dogs feet were wiped with diluted chlorox wipes and they were kept separate from the others for 14 days.
There were breeders losing litters/ adults all around us and we never had a case of parvo...if you keep people and dogs out of your kennel or area where you house them, you do not need to vaccine at 5 weeks and worm at 2 wks.
Good rules of animal husbandary prevents so many unneccessay risks for our dogs..
If some one like me..(a breeder who has owned a large number of dogs) can stay worm, parasite and parvo free for 35 yrs just about anyone can...how can your dogs be getting these things if no dogs or people are allowed to mix with them...
People who come to visit puppies can remove shoes and wash hands...no strange dogs allowed ever!
It does not prevent socialization...ask people to follow rules.

I'm thrilled you missed the whole gory thing--I didn't. And I'll never forget it ! I go to dog shows and I'm not staying home because I wont vaccinate. I welcome visitors to my kennel and I do breeding out of my lines and breed some for others. And every once in a while I buy a puppy---but never a unvaccinated puppy---NEVER. And as soon as I get that pup home I give a dose of Neopar. And NOW I haven't had a problem in YEARS ! I'm sticking with my program--and for all you breeders, pet owners that don't wont to be attacked I understand. Talk to your Vets get a program that works for you ! I don't want to force my opinion on anyone BUT if you have never seen Parvo----it's horrible ! Think this vaccination thing over good---it could save your dogs and pups lives and a horrible DEATH ! :thumbs up each one of you do as you please !

I, in no way advocate NOT vaccinating, it is foolish not to..so please everyone vaccine.
I go to shows now that there is a vaccine..but when there was NONE, we stayed home..
I did stud service, groomed and boarded..and bought many puppies over the years..I just followed the rules..it works for me and what you do works for you...best wishes...