Ok Is It or Is It Not Safe

[lily]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

Why so defensive? You took Natalies
post wrong. She gave her opinion to the question you asked but she could have said more and probably should hav since I feel she is the one you have targeted... I am a breeder of many years also. i personally would not breed a three pound dog. i have bred a four and a half pound dog tho and had good luck. I have bred a seven pouind dog and ended up with dead puppies and a c-section. The girls I currently have are five and six pounds. But Nat is right, all you can do is mind your own business because people are going to do what is best for them.

Thank You , You just took words right of my mouth. I've had to pull many puppies out a 7 lb bicth. My 5 lb one pushes them right out. I don't breed under 5lbs. mush be 24months.

[CouversMom]

I completely agree with the OP. She is just trying to figure things out because she wants to eventually breed. She just wants opinions on what she has seen on this forum... I believe that it is good that she wants to become educated!

She read on here about how bad it is to breed any dog under 5 pounds, and then sees so called "good" breeders doing the opposite? I understand her confusion. IMHO though, I would not base practices off of breeder who has so called "teacups" for sale. There is no such thing as a "teacup" and everyone on here knows this.

While everyone here has a right to their own opinion, this is mine, and I applaud the OP for bringing the question up

[nlappegard]

i completely agree with Ann everyone has to do what is best for them some may agree or disagree but you can't please everyone in life what works for me may not work for other people but to me this whole thing was blown way out of proportion when all i was doing is looking for a home for my dog it had nothing to do with what i breed in the first place.

[rsmith0803]

Originally Posted by nanahas3

I am starting this new thread to keep names out because that seems to cause lots of angry responses on here. My question is....is it or is it not safe to breed 3 lb girls. I have been reading and reading on all parts of YT for months now and everyone says it is not safe and my vet has told me that they absolutely should not be bred under 4 lbs and preferably bigger. That seems to be the popular opinion here. But I have also seen a few post where a breeder sells puppies from 3 lb females and when asked about the practice everyone jumps to their defense. This is confusing to people like me who are not breeders because when we ask about what kind of breeders to look for the first thing we are told here is dont buy from breeders who do this or who advertise "teacup" yorkies which these breeders I am speaking of do. My other question is why the double standards is it just because these breeders say they have been breeding for 20 years or more? If that is the case the "puppy mill" I unfortunately uneducatedly bought Laddy from would be called legit because she said the same thing to me. Also when I asked these questions I was called rude and a trouble maker. I am neither I am just a new to being owned by a yorkie and want to learn all aspects of it. I don't know about others who have been treated like this for asking questions but it really makes me feel like not coming back to YT

Here's the deal, I guess I will just be blunt. Obviously, we all know the target of this post so let's just lay it all out. Her website shows the weight of all her moms. Some are in the 3 lb. range. Now, anyone who does research on breeding yorkies (which I have) knows that breeding them that tiny is not for the love of the yorkie standards but just trying to make tinies! I realize she is a YT and the vast majority of YT are here for the love of the yorkie standards, she however has proven she is not. I am not saying she doesn't love her pups just stating that when you try to breed for tinies you end up risking the moms life and health. And on another note, she posted a yorkie mom that couldn't produce so she had to get rid of her. Right there proves she doesn't care. I have always had my babies as pets and anyone who can just get rid of one of their pups because she can't produce is just beyond me. I think it is ridiculously heartless! She obviously doesn't love this pup or there would be nothing that would make her get rid of her!
So go ahead and bash me, I am entitled to my opinion!!

[nlappegard]

no there is no such thing as teacups it's just a way of discribing the tiny yorkies but i have no idea why it's listed that way on here on my site because i didn't put it there i usually never use that word i usually always say tiny yorkies. As for the good news my 1oz female is doing very well she is now up to 2oz. you know all you people talk about tiny dogs i have never had any trouble with mine. But heres a good example of that this female that couldn't have her puppies was 5.8-lbs a lot of this has to do with the dog it self some 7pound dogs can't have puppies it's just the way it is. look how little hampters are and mice they have babies and lots of them. Most of breeding has a lot to do with the genetics you have behind the dog you would never breed a 3 or 4-lb dog that came from a 6 or 7 pound mother because they could have bigger puppies and it could hurt them but when all your genetics are tiny and the same size it works pretty good at least it does for me.

[tiggerr36792]

Originally Posted by rsmith0803

Here's the deal, I guess I will just be blunt. Obviously, we all know the target of this post so let's just lay it all out. Her website shows the weight of all her moms. Some are in the 3 lb. range. Now, anyone who does research on breeding yorkies (which I have) knows that breeding them that tiny is not for the love of the yorkie standards but just trying to make tinies! I realize she is a YT and the vast majority of YT are here for the love of the yorkie standards, she however has proven she is not. I am not saying she doesn't love her pups just stating that when you try to breed for tinies you end up risking the moms life and health. And on another note, she posted a yorkie mom that couldn't produce so she had to get rid of her. Right there proves she doesn't care. I have always had my babies as pets and anyone who can just get rid of one of their pups because she can't produce is just beyond me. I think it is ridiculously heartless! She obviously doesn't love this pup or there would be nothing that would make her get rid of her!
So go ahead and bash me, I am entitled to my opinion!!

I will do my best to not bash you but I do feel the need to speak up about some things here for my friend Natalie.
- First off if us breeders kept all our females that couldn't produce puppies for us we would be HOARDERS and not breeders. I commend Natalie for placing her in a loving home at little or No cost except shipping. This fact shows how much she loves her dogs imo.
- Secondly your comment about it showing she doesn't care is uncalled for imo. If she didn't care she would not have made it important for her to be spayed and given a loving home as her main concern.
- Thirdly you are entitled to your opinion as we all are, but when you say negative things about someone without clearly knowing the true facts that to me is being unnecessarily mean and rude.
- Fourthly Yes she breeds tinys but has been doing this for over 25 years and has small males that can safely allow her smaller girls to safely whelp their puppies. She also has tiny genetics behind them and has proven over time that there is a desire for people to own them smaller. For example there are alot of people who have tinys from one breeder or another and desire to get a second yorkie. They go to Natalie to purchase one because they can get a tiny one small enough to safely play and keep their first small one company. Natalie is very picky as to where her tiny yorkies go and she keeps them way longer then most breeders do so she can be 100% certain they are free of any health issues.

Yes I have a few smaller females myself but not as small as Natalie does. I generally have most of the standard sized females I use for breeding, however I have seen first hand how easily a 3 lb female bred to a 1 1/2 male can have puppies (I have 4 puppies whelped here in Calif with me now from one of Natalies tiny females)
I hope you take what I have said and consider being abit more polite with each other on here.

[daisy mae06]

this was very well and respectfully said Deb I agree.

Originally Posted by tiggerr36792

I will do my best to not bash you but I do feel the need to speak up about some things here for my friend Natalie.
- First off if us breeders kept all our females that couldn't produce puppies for us we would be HOARDERS and not breeders. I commend Natalie for placing her in a loving home at little or No cost except shipping. This fact shows how much she loves her dogs imo.
- Secondly your comment about it showing she doesn't care is uncalled for imo. If she didn't care she would not have made it important for her to be spayed and given a loving home as her main concern.
- Thirdly you are entitled to your opinion as we all are, but when you say negative things about someone without clearly knowing the true facts that to me is being unnecessarily mean and rude.
- Fourthly Yes she breeds tinys but has been doing this for over 25 years and has small males that can safely allow her smaller girls to safely whelp their puppies. She also has tiny genetics behind them and has proven over time that there is a desire for people to own them smaller. For example there are alot of people who have tinys from one breeder or another and desire to get a second yorkie. They go to Natalie to purchase one because they can get a tiny one small enough to safely play and keep their first small one company. Natalie is very picky as to where her tiny yorkies go and she keeps them way longer then most breeders do so she can be 100% certain they are free of any health issues.

Yes I have a few smaller females myself but not as small as Natalie does. I generally have most of the standard sized females I use for breeding, however I have seen first hand how easily a 3 lb female bred to a 1 1/2 male can have puppies (I have 4 puppies whelped here in Calif with me now from one of Natalies tiny females)
I hope you take what I have said and consider being abit more polite with each other on here.

[mypreciouspups]

Originally Posted by rsmith0803

Here's the deal, I guess I will just be blunt. Obviously, we all know the target of this post so let's just lay it all out. Her website shows the weight of all her moms. Some are in the 3 lb. range. Now, anyone who does research on breeding yorkies (which I have) knows that breeding them that tiny is not for the love of the yorkie standards but just trying to make tinies! I realize she is a YT and the vast majority of YT are here for the love of the yorkie standards, she however has proven she is not. I am not saying she doesn't love her pups just stating that when you try to breed for tinies you end up risking the moms life and health. And on another note, she posted a yorkie mom that couldn't produce so she had to get rid of her. Right there proves she doesn't care. I have always had my babies as pets and anyone who can just get rid of one of their pups because she can't produce is just beyond me. I think it is ridiculously heartless! She obviously doesn't love this pup or there would be nothing that would make her get rid of her!
So go ahead and bash me, I am entitled to my opinion!!

I see you have not been on YT very long.. and I must say you are not just talking about this breeder in your post.. for many even show breeders that are finished with a yorkie they have bred find them homes.. so that they can make room to keep babies to show again and keep their lines for many years.. so saying this is not very nice.. ...I am defending all breeders on this.. if they kept them all would that be humane.. Dogs need attention and love.. and hence a breeder finding a home for a dog that does not meet her needs is not cruel.. it is humane.. I would keep every dog I ever produced.. but for the love of the breed I just cannot and not due to space but time to love and care for them all...
There are also people out there myself included some 20 years ago.. did not want to pay huge prices for a yorkie.. and I took in a couple.. one had been a breeding yorkie and did not produce what the breeder wanted..hence I got her.. and I so loved her.. and I can honestly say she got more attention from us then had she just been kept and fed by a breeder that was showing so many dogs she just did not have the time on her hands.. so please do not come here and be so harsh...especially when you do not know the breeder or the situation or just the breeding itself... I am sorry but this really upset me for other breeders including myself...anne

[Redrose]

Hello, when you are wanting to breed, you must study and know what you are getting into. Know what the bloodlines are noted for that you are looking to use. Check out each female with your Vet to make sure that there is enough room to even have the puppies (before breeding!), this is especially necessary with any female close to or around four pounds. I, personally will not breed a female under four pounds of my own. I will use a tiny male to bring down the size of my puppies if smaller pups are needed/wanted. I, personally prefer breeding girls to be at least five pounds. The AKC standard starts at four pounds, which should be a guide line. I do hope that this will help you.

[nanahas3]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

Why so defensive? You took Natalies
post wrong. She gave her opinion to the question you asked but she could have said more and probably should hav since I feel she is the one you have targeted... I am a breeder of many years also. i personally would not breed a three pound dog. i have bred a four and a half pound dog tho and had good luck. I have bred a seven pouind dog and ended up with dead puppies and a c-section. The girls I currently have are five and six pounds. But Nat is right, all you can do is mind your own business because people are going to do what is best for them.

I was away for a bit and just saw this post. I was not targeting Natalie I have seen it with others on here also. and as far as she is concerned I will not attack her or anyone else personally or otherwise. I just asked some questions and was called rude. I did look at her site and listed on her site for upcoming litters are listed several 3lb little moms but that is her choice as it is any breeder I just asked because of the things I stated in my original post.

[Woogie Man]

I'll say that I would never breed a girl in the 3 pound range. It's just not safe IMO. I have a wonderful little girl with a divine personality that I bought to breed and so wanted to as she grew to be more beautiful than my expectations. However, by one year old she had only reached 3 pounds and I did (what I consider) the responsible thing and had her spayed.

I suppose breeding tinies can be done but I really don't see the point. Someone used the analogy of hamsters and mice breeding safely. While that's true, they are kept in a cage. They are in no way a companion pet. A dog, IMO, needs to be large enough to have a reasonable chance of making it through life without a simple mis-step being a tragedy.

Right now I have a little girl that is 7 months old and weighs 2 1/2 pounds. She was bred from my 3 pound male and a 5 1/2 pound girl. She is just now getting to the point where I feel safe in allowing her to go to a permanent home. She is so small and I worry about her so much. It's not that she's not healthy, it's the risk of injury.

I guess that's where my problem would be in someone breeding for not just tinies...but ultra-tinies. How could any breeder feel like they could find so many truly qualified homes for such little ones? I would wonder how many really make it to a ripe old age as they should? Good homes for tinies are very hard to find and, for this reason, I think that breeding for them is wrong. It may not be so much as CAN you breed them but SHOULD you?

The OP is only asking the obvious questions. If someone came to the breeders' forum and asked the breeders to check out a site they were considering getting a pup from where someone was breeding too-small girls, it's a no-brainer what the response would be. Or should I say what the response HAS been as just this question has been asked many times before. Typical responses would include words like...'irresponsible', 'unethical', 'greeder', etc. and you would see plenty of these...

To see this type of breeding program being embraced by some has got to be confusing to newbies and long-time members alike. I am personally distressed by it as this can only lead to stoking the demand for these ultra-tinies. It's something I thought I'd never see here on YorkieTalk (shakes head in disbelief).

[sillyjacki]

Not to get into the specifics of posters... My breeder DOES like to breed for smaller yorkies. Her target is a 3-4 pound Yorkie. She refuses to breed a female that is smaller than 5 lbs. She only breeds them with males that are smaller, since, obviously, if they take after their dad, and he's larger, it can cause problems for mama!

I had to explain that to a girl in my apt building who has a 3lb female and is looking for a mate. I tried to explain to her that it would be very dangerous, especially for a new breeder with no experience and no support... I mean, I wouldn't breed a dog without having someone like a mentor to help me through it AS WELL as my vet of choice.... Anyway, all that aside...

That's what my breeder says. Even though she tries for small ones, she definitely uses 5-6 lb females and hopes for the best... She tries to breed for personality after that. So size (male that will be a good match) and then she tries to "breed out" things like timidity, or stubbornness (hey, as much as you can! haha). At least, that's what I could tell, and I've spent a lot of time with her.

Also, don't leave! Even though I've just come back from a long hiatus, I can say that everyone here is here for the same reason- we love our pups... And the internet is the internet! Sometimes we say things on a keyboard that we'd never say face to face. You gotta check yourself when you're being rude and hope others do the same.

[nanahas3]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I'll say that I would never breed a girl in the 3 pound range. It's just not safe IMO. I have a wonderful little girl with a divine personality that I bought to breed and so wanted to as she grew to be more beautiful than my expectations. However, by one year old she had only reached 3 pounds and I did (what I consider) the responsible thing and had her spayed.

I suppose breeding tinies can be done but I really don't see the point. Someone used the analogy of hamsters and mice breeding safely. While that's true, they are kept in a cage. They are in no way a companion pet. A dog, IMO, needs to be large enough to have a reasonable chance of making it through life without a simple mis-step being a tragedy.

Right now I have a little girl that is 7 months old and weighs 2 1/2 pounds. She was bred from my 3 pound male and a 5 1/2 pound girl. She is just now getting to the point where I feel safe in allowing her to go to a permanent home. She is so small and I worry about her so much. It's not that she's not healthy, it's the risk of injury.

I guess that's where my problem would be in someone breeding for not just tinies...but ultra-tinies. How could any breeder feel like they could find so many truly qualified homes for such little ones? I would wonder how many really make it to a ripe old age as they should? Good homes for tinies are very hard to find and, for this reason, I think that breeding for them is wrong. It may not be so much as CAN you breed them but SHOULD you?

The OP is only asking the obvious questions. If someone came to the breeders' forum and asked the breeders to check out a site they were considering getting a pup from where someone was breeding too-small girls, it's a no-brainer what the response would be. Or should I say what the response HAS been as just this question has been asked many times before. Typical responses would include words like...'irresponsible', 'unethical', 'greeder', etc. and you would see plenty of these...

To see this type of breeding program being embraced by some has got to be confusing to newbies and long-time members alike. I am personally distressed by it as this can only lead to stoking the demand for these ultra-tinies. It's something I thought I'd never see here on YorkieTalk (shakes head in disbelief).

Thank you you stated exactly what i meant but in so much better word.

[rsmith0803]

Originally Posted by nanahas3

Thank you you stated exactly what i meant but in so much better word.

I agree with ya, I just do my studying and also look on here for advise. If she wasn't a member that apparently everyone likes, like lets say someone was just posting about a breeder they had experience with. I am sure not as many people would agree with her practices.

And another thing, I PERSONALLY am just against people who have multiple pups and are just breeders. I have just loved mine to much to give away. Oh well, like I said from the get go, I have an opinion.

Oh and I am pretty outspoken, I realize this is the internet but I would probably say the same things to the neighbor next door, I'm not shy!

[becky k]

i have no knowledge but just wanted to say that im reading and learning. my little girl is 4 wks now doing good .the lady im getting her from is really not a breeder but has 2 yorkies .the mom is 3 lbs and dad 2.5 lbs .she had 2 pups boy and girl they are doing well. mom had no problems .i guess she was lucky after what ive been reading. she said she has had a previous litter of 2 pups before also.