Ok Is It or Is It Not Safe

[KimberlySRN]

Originally Posted by mypreciouspups

I see you have not been on YT very long.. and I must say you are not just talking about this breeder in your post.. for many even show breeders that are finished with a yorkie they have bred find them homes.. so that they can make room to keep babies to show again and keep their lines for many years.. so saying this is not very nice.. ...I am defending all breeders on this.. if they kept them all would that be humane.. Dogs need attention and love.. and hence a breeder finding a home for a dog that does not meet her needs is not cruel.. it is humane.. I would keep every dog I ever produced.. but for the love of the breed I just cannot and not due to space but time to love and care for them all...
There are also people out there myself included some 20 years ago.. did not want to pay huge prices for a yorkie.. and I took in a couple.. one had been a breeding yorkie and did not produce what the breeder wanted..hence I got her.. and I so loved her.. and I can honestly say she got more attention from us then had she just been kept and fed by a breeder that was showing so many dogs she just did not have the time on her hands.. so please do not come here and be so harsh...especially when you do not know the breeder or the situation or just the breeding itself... I am sorry but this really upset me for other breeders including myself...anne

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I'll say that I would never breed a girl in the 3 pound range. It's just not safe IMO. I have a wonderful little girl with a divine personality that I bought to breed and so wanted to as she grew to be more beautiful than my expectations. However, by one year old she had only reached 3 pounds and I did (what I consider) the responsible thing and had her spayed.

I suppose breeding tinies can be done but I really don't see the point. Someone used the analogy of hamsters and mice breeding safely. While that's true, they are kept in a cage. They are in no way a companion pet. A dog, IMO, needs to be large enough to have a reasonable chance of making it through life without a simple mis-step being a tragedy.

Right now I have a little girl that is 7 months old and weighs 2 1/2 pounds. She was bred from my 3 pound male and a 5 1/2 pound girl. She is just now getting to the point where I feel safe in allowing her to go to a permanent home. She is so small and I worry about her so much. It's not that she's not healthy, it's the risk of injury.

I guess that's where my problem would be in someone breeding for not just tinies...but ultra-tinies. How could any breeder feel like they could find so many truly qualified homes for such little ones? I would wonder how many really make it to a ripe old age as they should? Good homes for tinies are very hard to find and, for this reason, I think that breeding for them is wrong. It may not be so much as CAN you breed them but SHOULD you?

The OP is only asking the obvious questions. If someone came to the breeders' forum and asked the breeders to check out a site they were considering getting a pup from where someone was breeding too-small girls, it's a no-brainer what the response would be. Or should I say what the response HAS been as just this question has been asked many times before. Typical responses would include words like...'irresponsible', 'unethical', 'greeder', etc. and you would see plenty of these...

To see this type of breeding program being embraced by some has got to be confusing to newbies and long-time members alike. I am personally distressed by it as this can only lead to stoking the demand for these ultra-tinies. It's something I thought I'd never see here on YorkieTalk (shakes head in disbelief).

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I'll say that I would never breed a girl in the 3 pound range. It's just not safe IMO. I have a wonderful little girl with a divine personality that I bought to breed and so wanted to as she grew to be more beautiful than my expectations. However, by one year old she had only reached 3 pounds and I did (what I consider) the responsible thing and had her spayed.

I suppose breeding tinies can be done but I really don't see the point. Someone used the analogy of hamsters and mice breeding safely. While that's true, they are kept in a cage. They are in no way a companion pet. A dog, IMO, needs to be large enough to have a reasonable chance of making it through life without a simple mis-step being a tragedy.

Right now I have a little girl that is 7 months old and weighs 2 1/2 pounds. She was bred from my 3 pound male and a 5 1/2 pound girl. She is just now getting to the point where I feel safe in allowing her to go to a permanent home. She is so small and I worry about her so much. It's not that she's not healthy, it's the risk of injury.

I guess that's where my problem would be in someone breeding for not just tinies...but ultra-tinies. How could any breeder feel like they could find so many truly qualified homes for such little ones? I would wonder how many really make it to a ripe old age as they should? Good homes for tinies are very hard to find and, for this reason, I think that breeding for them is wrong. It may not be so much as CAN you breed them but SHOULD you?

The OP is only asking the obvious questions. If someone came to the breeders' forum and asked the breeders to check out a site they were considering getting a pup from where someone was breeding too-small girls, it's a no-brainer what the response would be. Or should I say what the response HAS been as just this question has been asked many times before. Typical responses would include words like...'irresponsible', 'unethical', 'greeder', etc. and you would see plenty of these...

To see this type of breeding program being embraced by some has got to be confusing to newbies and long-time members alike. I am personally distressed by it as this can only lead to stoking the demand for these ultra-tinies. It's something I thought I'd never see here on YorkieTalk (shakes head in disbelief).

Here's what the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America says:

Many breeders prefer a general weight range of 4-7 four pounds believing that size retains desired Toy qualities while maintaining optimum health. The Yorkie Standard states weight "must not exceed seven pounds" and as a prospective pet owner you should realize that even at 7 pounds, the Yorkie is still a small dog. (Females weighing less than 5 pounds are considered by most breeders to be unsuitable for breeding.) Yorkshire Terrier Club of America (Awards)

[oopsmyhalofello]

Originally Posted by nanahas3

I am starting this new thread to keep names out because that seems to cause lots of angry responses on here. My question is....is it or is it not safe to breed 3 lb girls. I have been reading and reading on all parts of YT for months now and everyone says it is not safe and my vet has told me that they absolutely should not be bred under 4 lbs and preferably bigger. That seems to be the popular opinion here. But I have also seen a few post where a breeder sells puppies from 3 lb females and when asked about the practice everyone jumps to their defense. This is confusing to people like me who are not breeders because when we ask about what kind of breeders to look for the first thing we are told here is dont buy from breeders who do this or who advertise "teacup" yorkies which these breeders I am speaking of do. My other question is why the double standards is it just because these breeders say they have been breeding for 20 years or more? If that is the case the "puppy mill" I unfortunately uneducatedly bought Laddy from would be called legit because she said the same thing to me. Also when I asked these questions I was called rude and a trouble maker. I am neither I am just a new to being owned by a yorkie and want to learn all aspects of it. I don't know about others who have been treated like this for asking questions but it really makes me feel like not coming back to YT

ct

Here you can read and learn stuff, but really what it all comes down to is using the knowledge that you obtain from many sources and then really annalyzing it all, studying up on the genectic of the breed and just breeding dogs in general. Speaking with other breeders who have a program you feel comfortable with and coming up with what you feel is the right way to do things. Experience will then probably change your thoughts on some things, heart break may change your thoughts on others... All in all if you really strive to be a wonderful reputable breeder of the Yorkshire terrier doing it for the right reasons you will be looking into a lot move then just a message board for information.

I do totally understand where your coming from with your post, I actually thought the same thing myself.

[nanahas3]

Originally Posted by oopsmyhalofello

ct

Here you can read and learn stuff, but really what it all comes down to is using the knowledge that you obtain from many sources and then really annalyzing it all, studying up on the genectic of the breed and just breeding dogs in general. Speaking with other breeders who have a program you feel comfortable with and coming up with what you feel is the right way to do things. Experience will then probably change your thoughts on some things, heart break may change your thoughts on others... All in all if you really strive to be a wonderful reputable breeder of the Yorkshire terrier doing it for the right reasons you will be looking into a lot move then just a message board for information.

I do totally understand where your coming from with your post, I actually thought the same thing myself.

I am not sure if it is the way I worded the post but I am not a breeder nor am I thinking about becoming one. I just love yorkies. I come here because I want to learn more about them. I also since coming here have been trying to do all I can as my part to help fight byb and puppy mills. It was just really confusing to me is all that because some of us ask breeders why they breed tinies that we were attacked and called rude for it when other breeders are attacked for doing that very thing. I never ever intended to be rude to anyone.

[mypreciouspups]

Originally Posted by rsmith0803

I agree with ya, I just do my studying and also look on here for advise. If she wasn't a member that apparently everyone likes, like lets say someone was just posting about a breeder they had experience with. I am sure not as many people would agree with her practices.

And another thing, I PERSONALLY am just against people who have multiple pups and are just breeders. I have just loved mine to much to give away. Oh well, like I said from the get go, I have an opinion.

Oh and I am pretty outspoken, I realize this is the internet but I would probably say the same things to the neighbor next door, I'm not shy!

Just to let you know.. I do NOT know this breeder.. have never bought a yorkie from her.. I am speaking about a breeder in general..

Critisim is
The Disapproval of people, not for having faults
But for having faults that are different from their own..

This was posted at a teen town for teenagers on a military base where the kids went to play cards and have dances and had an adult with them at all times.. it was meant for teenagers to learn from this..anne

[rsmith0803]

Originally Posted by mypreciouspups

Just to let you know.. I do NOT know this breeder.. have never bought a yorkie from her.. I am speaking about a breeder in general..

Critisim is
The Disapproval of people, not for having faults
But for having faults that are different from their own..

This was posted at a teen town for teenagers on a military base where the kids went to play cards and have dances and had an adult with them at all times.. it was meant for teenagers to learn from this..anne

Do they have any signs on OPINION!!! I'm sorry for even posting in this thread I just thought it was my God given right to have an opinion!

[rsmith0803]

As I sit at this computer I get more and more angry! I have read here on several occassions on preserving the yorkie standard and how everyone here was so against breeders breeding for tinies. I maybe a newbie here but I am not new to the yorkie world!

It seems awfully hypocritical that her practices are ok since she is a member here. I never said she didn't take care of her pups, actually I looked at her site at some pics and they are very cute pups. I just have a problem with breeding for tinies and giving a mama away cuz she can't be a money maker!

I don't need to be told what criticism is, my children have a dictionary and I am well past the age of having to look up that word!

This is my last post, I will find somewhere else to discuss my love of yorkies!

I guess I am just not worthy of this company any longer!

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by mypreciouspups

I think sometimes people can take to heart too much that is said..I think you will always get some one that disagree's with you.. but one should not take things so personally.. I learned a long time ago.. that there will always be a post that you can jump all over or by pass it.. I have looked at natalee site and I do see she has many small dogs that she states she does not breed that they are her pets only.. I try not to get into the politics too much..easier to get upset I guess for some.. ask your questions and just know ahead of time. some will agree or disagree... anne

I agree with this, though I must admit I get into arguments here sometimes! Sometimes it's hard to resist, but I try.

I haven't read all the posts that led up to this thread, but YT is not purely an informational site. People make friends here, buy and sell yorkies and yorkie products, place rescues, etc. Hopefully most posts are both helpful and friendly to everyone, but it's not going to happen all the time, ESPECIALLY on the web. In controversial threads, people are going to have different motives for posting, that's just the way it is, and it's not necessarily wrong. Sometimes I see people posting things I really disagree with and I decide not to get into it... and sometimes I do. It depends on how how effective I think I'll be, I guess, and sometimes I'm just feeling ornery.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by rsmith0803

As I sit at this computer I get more and more angry! I have read here on several occassions on preserving the yorkie standard and how everyone here was so against breeders breeding for tinies. I maybe a newbie here but I am not new to the yorkie world!

It seems awfully hypocritical that her practices are ok since she is a member here. I never said she didn't take care of her pups, actually I looked at her site at some pics and they are very cute pups. I just have a problem with breeding for tinies and giving a mama away cuz she can't be a money maker!

I don't need to be told what criticism is, my children have a dictionary and I am well past the age of having to look up that word!

This is my last post, I will find somewhere else to discuss my love of yorkies!

I guess I am just not worthy of this company any longer!

Well, I do hope you stay. It's expecting a lot to believe that a forum should never have threads that upset you. I would be surprised if you find any forums like that anywhere. There are many people here and many topics, hopefully you'll find enough to keep you happy here.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by sillyjacki

Not to get into the specifics of posters... My breeder DOES like to breed for smaller yorkies. Her target is a 3-4 pound Yorkie. She refuses to breed a female that is smaller than 5 lbs. She only breeds them with males that are smaller, since, obviously, if they take after their dad, and he's larger, it can cause problems for mama!

I had to explain that to a girl in my apt building who has a 3lb female and is looking for a mate. I tried to explain to her that it would be very dangerous, especially for a new breeder with no experience and no support... I mean, I wouldn't breed a dog without having someone like a mentor to help me through it AS WELL as my vet of choice.... Anyway, all that aside...

That's what my breeder says. Even though she tries for small ones, she definitely uses 5-6 lb females and hopes for the best... She tries to breed for personality after that. So size (male that will be a good match) and then she tries to "breed out" things like timidity, or stubbornness (hey, as much as you can! haha). At least, that's what I could tell, and I've spent a lot of time with her.

Also, don't leave! Even though I've just come back from a long hiatus, I can say that everyone here is here for the same reason- we love our pups... And the internet is the internet! Sometimes we say things on a keyboard that we'd never say face to face. You gotta check yourself when you're being rude and hope others do the same.

[mypreciouspups]

Originally Posted by rsmith0803

As I sit at this computer I get more and more angry! I have read here on several occassions on preserving the yorkie standard and how everyone here was so against breeders breeding for tinies. I maybe a newbie here but I am not new to the yorkie world!

It seems awfully hypocritical that her practices are ok since she is a member here. I never said she didn't take care of her pups, actually I looked at her site at some pics and they are very cute pups. I just have a problem with breeding for tinies and giving a mama away cuz she can't be a money maker!

I don't need to be told what criticism is, my children have a dictionary and I am well past the age of having to look up that word!

This is my last post, I will find somewhere else to discuss my love of yorkies!

I guess I am just not worthy of this company any longer!

I see no reason for you to leave yt.. I am just trying hard to say.. many things we disagree with..but we also have to watch how we say what we want.. I try so hard to get my point across without my words showing anger.. for I am not angry.. there is just no point in that.. I love this place.. wish more people got along.. and I try to feel.... you must walk the walk in order to do the talk.. many times we do not know the why's, hows of other people's lives.. and it is easy to make quick negative judgements.. or even angry ones. but it is not fun being just angry.. I do try for the most part to stay with the happy threads.. and the prayer threads.. or help needed..
When I first joined here many show breeders use to post.. that is long gone and I rarely see them now..it is too bad really for those are the knowledgeable people..I am not angry with you or anyone.. I too am trying hard to make a point..and I do try hard not to judge ..

[tiggerr36792]

Originally Posted by rsmith0803

As I sit at this computer I get more and more angry! I have read here on several occassions on preserving the yorkie standard and how everyone here was so against breeders breeding for tinies. I maybe a newbie here but I am not new to the yorkie world!

It seems awfully hypocritical that her practices are ok since she is a member here. I never said she didn't take care of her pups, actually I looked at her site at some pics and they are very cute pups. I just have a problem with breeding for tinies and giving a mama away cuz she can't be a money maker!
I don't need to be told what criticism is, my children have a dictionary and I am well past the age of having to look up that word!

This is my last post, I will find somewhere else to discuss my love of yorkies!

I guess I am just not worthy of this company any longer!

I feel the need to correct something here that as you can see I placed in Bold type:
We breeders don't give away our babies cause they aren't as you put it moneymakers. We give them loving homes because if we kept them all we would be Hoarders and not breeders. As much as we would like to keep them all after its time to retire them it just isnt possible to keep them all. We would end up with alot of dogs that arent getting the full attention and love they deserve. I dont see why you put this down as a negative when its been done for many years and will continue to be done for many more years by very reputable breeders.

As far as you saying ypour leaving I hope you wont do that. YT is a discussion forum and thats exactally what adults do, we all can get along even if we have very different opinions from each other.

[MollysMum54]

I guess in a nutshell, we will have to accept that people who keep a few yorkies as pets will always feel differently about their dogs than a breeder will.
Us pet owners could never imagine giving our yorkies away,they are our children, but a breeder, however much they love their dogs, is breeding to either better the breed, and/or to sell their pups.
If a breeder loved their dogs in the same way (and im not saying they love them any less than us, just differently) as we do, they would never sell the pups, and prospective owners would never get the chance to buy pup.
Personally, i have always adopted a rescue that someone has discarded because they no longer want them.
we are all different, and its good we can have discussions, although there are sometimes conflicting comments which some of us sometimes find hard to understand.
I guess breeders and pet owners are different breeds of humans!!

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by tiggerr36792

I feel the need to correct something here that as you can see I placed in Bold type:
We breeders don't give away our babies cause they aren't as you put it moneymakers. We give them loving homes because if we kept them all we would be Hoarders and not breeders. As much as we would like to keep them all after its time to retire them it just isnt possible to keep them all. We would end up with alot of dogs that arent getting the full attention and love they deserve. I dont see why you put this down as a negative when its been done for many years and will continue to be done for many more years by very reputable breeders.

As far as you saying ypour leaving I hope you wont do that. YT is a discussion forum and thats exactally what adults do, we all can get along even if we have very different opinions from each other.

I agree with everything you said. People seem to think we breeders just "throw' away our retired girls. It hurts me worse to place a female that has had the run of my house, slept in my bed each night and is a member of the family so to speak, than it does when I sell her litter. By the time the baby puppies are ready to go, I am ready for them to leave. Worn out from caring for them but it breaks my heart in two when my mama's are retired and placed. I usually cry and grieve for days. But in the three that I have rehomed so rar, they are all in nice homes and living like little princesses. I think Natalie is a wonderful breeder even tho I personally wouldn't breed a tiny, tiny girl. I have always wanted one of her babies but could never afford one.

[mustangbee]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

I agree with everything you said. People seem to think we breeders just "throw' away our retired girls. It hurts me worse to place a female that has had the run of my house, slept in my bed each night and is a member of the family so to speak, than it does when I sell her litter. By the time the baby puppies are ready to go, I am ready for them to leave. Worn out from caring for them but it breaks my heart in two when my mama's are retired and placed. I usually cry and grieve for days. But in the three that I have rehomed so rar, they are all in nice homes and living like little princesses. I think Natalie is a wonderful breeder even tho I personally wouldn't breed a tiny, tiny girl. I have always wanted one of her babies but could never afford one.

I'm sure that must be very hard.


As far as the question goes, Is it safe or not safe?

Well I have high respect for real Breeders. They have learned all they can on the breed they are going to work with to hold up all their standards. It's not very easy, it's a lot of studying and hard work. It could be a few years before they are ready to take on such a big task. But it is because of all their hard work we end up with healthy, quality furbabies to love.
I am in no way an expert in this field (or any other) but I do know what I myself have studied and my answer would have to be no, I don't feel it is safe. Some people may agree or disagree, that's OK we all have our own reasons for our answers. I'm sticking with my answer because, the cute little ones that they are, I know in my heart and from what I have read it's wrong to do.