Ok Is It or Is It Not Safe - Page 4 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

NIKI1969UK · 05-23-2009, 04:45 AM

I am still a newbie but I would just like to add that we are all entitled to our opinion's. There are somethings that I agree with and disagree with on this discussion. I would of thought breeding a 3lb bitch would be dangerous but I don't breed Yorkies. I also felt sorry for the Bitch being rehomed because she couldn't produce future puppies, but I also appreciate that it really is a business your run, and you made sure the dog went to a good home which was really important. I personally couldn't breed any breed of dog because I would always worry about who bought the puppies, but this is how I personally feel and I am entitled to my thoughts and feelings without insulting anyone. I am glad that there are breeders out there because I wouldn't have Mika if there wasn't.

nanahas3 · 05-23-2009, 08:26 AM

I would like to say one more thing. I was not against anyone rehoming their retired breeders. I in fact am adopting a little girl who was used as a breeder. That is probably another reason I feel so strongly about not breeding these tinies. I understand the concept that they need good homes completely that was not the reason for the question. I stated my reason for asking. It is very confusing to some of us why some are attacked for even asking if it would be ok to breed a 3lb girl and others are upheld for doing so.

Ladymom · 05-23-2009, 09:04 AM

Thanks for posting this, Nancy.

Many breeders prefer a general weight range of 4-7 four pounds believing that size retains desired Toy qualities while maintaining optimum health. The Yorkie Standard states weight "must not exceed seven pounds" and as a prospective pet owner you should realize that even at 7 pounds, the Yorkie is still a small dog. (Females weighing less than 5 pounds are considered by most breeders to be unsuitable for breeding.) Yorkshire Terrier Club of America (Awards)

Reputable breeders always follow the breed club's guidelines IMO.

NIKI1969UK · 05-23-2009, 10:07 AM

I would like to say one more thing. I was not against anyone rehoming their retired breeders. I in fact am adopting a little girl who was used as a breeder. That is probably another reason I feel so strongly about not breeding these tinies. I understand the concept that they need good homes completely that was not the reason for the question. I stated my reason for asking. It is very confusing to some of us why some are attacked for even asking if it would be ok to breed a 3lb girl and others are upheld for doing so.

I agree with you totally.

Mika is a 6lb male and I think he is small. The thought of a 3lb Female carrying puppies seems cruel and unnecessary but there are people out there who just want a small Yorkie and don't think about the dangers the Mum had to go through to produce this puppy for the market. I certainly wasn't having a dig at you, or anyone. Please believe me and I apologise if it sounded like that.

bjh · 05-23-2009, 04:59 PM

I would never breed a female under 5 lbs and I actually prefer them to be close to 7 lbs. I know some people do breed tiny females but to me it is not in the best interest of the breed. I am sure some people that have bred for many years may have the proper knowledge to do it and maybe they don't have lots of problems but I think it sets a bad example. People will go out and buy a tiny female and breed her without knowing what they are doing just because they have seen other people do it. It is not worth the life of a tiny momma just to produce tiny pet puppies. There is so much more to consider when trying to breed quality yorkies. Too many people give up attitude, soundness and type just to breed a small pretty dog. JMHO

nanahas3 · 05-23-2009, 05:30 PM

[QUOTE=bjh;2635035]I would never breed a female under 5 lbs and I actually prefer them to be close to 7 lbs. I know some people do breed tiny females but to me it is not in the best interest of the breed. I am sure some people that have bred for many years may have the proper knowledge to do it and maybe they don't have lots of problems but I think it sets a bad example. People will go out and buy a tiny female and breed her without knowing what they are doing just because they have seen other people do it. It is not worth the life of a tiny momma just to produce tiny pet puppies. There is so much more to consider when trying to breed quality yorkies. Too many people give up attitude, soundness and type JMHO

Thanks this is how I feel also. I am not a breeder but when I first got my little male I was asked by a family member if we could let him stud her little girl (3.4) lbs. I thank God I had found YT and came to this section and asked before hand because I found out how risky it was and told her so she has decided not to breed her. Not everyone are experts and not all find YT there are alot of us novices out there and I believe that when we see sites selling babies from tinies alot of us think it has to be ok because we are uninformed. I tell everyone who asks me now about breed standards and the problems with tinies. Our little guy is a 3lb baby and they are a lot of work to keep them from injuries etc.

CharleneMama to Laddy and Lolita

Susan123 · 05-25-2009, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I'll say that I would never breed a girl in the 3 pound range. It's just not safe IMO. I have a wonderful little girl with a divine personality that I bought to breed and so wanted to as she grew to be more beautiful than my expectations. However, by one year old she had only reached 3 pounds and I did (what I consider) the responsible thing and had her spayed.

I suppose breeding tinies can be done but I really don't see the point. Someone used the analogy of hamsters and mice breeding safely. While that's true, they are kept in a cage. They are in no way a companion pet. A dog, IMO, needs to be large enough to have a reasonable chance of making it through life without a simple mis-step being a tragedy.

Right now I have a little girl that is 7 months old and weighs 2 1/2 pounds. She was bred from my 3 pound male and a 5 1/2 pound girl. She is just now getting to the point where I feel safe in allowing her to go to a permanent home. She is so small and I worry about her so much. It's not that she's not healthy, it's the risk of injury.

I guess that's where my problem would be in someone breeding for not just tinies...but ultra-tinies. How could any breeder feel like they could find so many truly qualified homes for such little ones? I would wonder how many really make it to a ripe old age as they should? Good homes for tinies are very hard to find and, for this reason, I think that breeding for them is wrong. It may not be so much as CAN you breed them but SHOULD you?

The OP is only asking the obvious questions. If someone came to the breeders' forum and asked the breeders to check out a site they were considering getting a pup from where someone was breeding too-small girls, it's a no-brainer what the response would be. Or should I say what the response HAS been as just this question has been asked many times before. Typical responses would include words like...'irresponsible', 'unethical', 'greeder', etc. and you would see plenty of these...

To see this type of breeding program being embraced by some has got to be confusing to newbies and long-time members alike. I am personally distressed by it as this can only lead to stoking the demand for these ultra-tinies. It's something I thought I'd never see here on YorkieTalk (shakes head in disbelief).

I absolutely agree with the OP for bringing up this practice as almost being embraced by YT posters recently. But, IMO it is cruel to breed a 3 lb bitch. I think it's sad that this practice has spread and can only wonder about any lurkers or newbies that have been reading that now are looking for 3 lb bitches to breed.

BamaFan121s · 05-26-2009, 06:07 AM

To answer the question asked by the OP. No, you will find that the most--both on YT and off--do not condone breeding such small females purposely and adhere to the general rule of thumb that 5 pounds is the minimum breeding weight. Please realize that breeding extremely small dogs is NOT something that the majority of members here approve of, regardless to if the person doing it is a YT member or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsmith0803

It seems awfully hypocritical that her practices are ok since she is a member here.

Please understand that not every member here views such practices as "OK." The practices of the breeder in question have been the topic of controversy on more than one occasion. It did not end well, resulted in the suspension of several members and several more members who left YT altogether because of the situation. So you will find that there are many who are reluctant to get invovled and speak out about it.
Not trying to stir the pot, just stating the facts about past events. I can completely understand how a newer member could be thrown for a loop to see something adamately preached against on YT and then see it being condoned.

Nancy1999 · 05-26-2009, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

To answer the question asked by the OP. No, you will find that the most--both on YT and off--do not condone breeding such small females purposely and adhere to the general rule of thumb that 5 pounds is the minimum breeding weight. Please realize that breeding extremely small dogs is NOT something that the majority of members here approve of, regardless to if the person doing it is a YT member or not.

Please understand that not every member here views such practices as "OK." The practices of the breeder in question have been the topic of controversy on more than one occasion. It did not end well, resulted in the suspension of several members and several more members who left YT altogether because of the situation. So you will find that there are many who are reluctant to get invovled and speak out about it.
Not trying to stir the pot, just stating the facts about past events. I can completely understand how a newer member could be thrown for a loop to see something adamately preached against on YT and then see it being condoned.

Thank you for adding this, I too was wondering why more people hadn't spoken up about it because all the past threads I remember, everyone was against it.

bjh · 05-26-2009, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

To answer the question asked by the OP. No, you will find that the most--both on YT and off--do not condone breeding such small females purposely and adhere to the general rule of thumb that 5 pounds is the minimum breeding weight. Please realize that breeding extremely small dogs is NOT something that the majority of members here approve of, regardless to if the person doing it is a YT member or not.

Please understand that not every member here views such practices as "OK." The practices of the breeder in question have been the topic of controversy on more than one occasion. It did not end well, resulted in the suspension of several members and several more members who left YT altogether because of the situation. So you will find that there are many who are reluctant to get invovled and speak out about it.
Not trying to stir the pot, just stating the facts about past events. I can completely understand how a newer member could be thrown for a loop to see something adamately preached against on YT and then see it being condoned.

Well said. YT is open to all yorkie lovers whether we agree with all of them or not.

oopsmyhalofello · 05-29-2009, 05:01 PM

Maybe I should start another post to ask this, but I have thought about the size of the stud dog used for breeding in the past too. I understand the risks involved with complications in breeding a tiny female are entirely different.. but Why is it ok for breeders to use tiny tiny males? They are going to possibly produce tiny tiny puppies that are difficult to find suitable homes for as they need extra care, I never hear anything about the size of the stud though?

YorkieShadow · 05-29-2009, 05:23 PM

I personally would not breed any dog under 5 lbs, even with 5 lbs you have a chance at losing your baby. and even at 5 lbs I would have her checked and see what a vet thought about it.
as for the word "teacup" you have many breeders that use this word for making more $$$ off their smaller pups. but there are some that call the smaller ones "teacups" meaning smaller and don't say it to get more $$$ they just use the word as others do small, tiny, teenie, runt.

YorkieShadow · 05-29-2009, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oops myhalofello

Maybe I should start another post to ask this, but I have thought about the size of the stud dog used for breeding in the past too. I understand the risks involved with complications in breeding a tiny female are entirely different.. but Why is it ok for breeders to use tiny tiny males? They are going to possibly produce tiny tiny puppies that are difficult to find suitable homes for as they need extra care, I never hear anything about the size of the stud though?

I think using a smaller male smaller then the female is in hope that many will come out standard sizes, but you just never know because it can go all the way back. also the female carries the pups so its more dangerous for her then the male.

bjh · 05-29-2009, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oopsmyhalofello

Maybe I should start another post to ask this, but I have thought about the size of the stud dog used for breeding in the past too. I understand the risks involved with complications in breeding a tiny female are entirely different.. but Why is it ok for breeders to use tiny tiny males? They are going to possibly produce tiny tiny puppies that are difficult to find suitable homes for as they need extra care, I never hear anything about the size of the stud though?

Most people are under the misconception that when breeding the male should be smaller than the female so because of that the breeders that are breeding small females will use an even smaller male. In my opinion, just breeding for extra small yorkies in not good. In the show ring you see very few show males that are under 4 lbs, truthfully I don't know if I have seen any that small. Most of your top winning yorkies are over 5 lbs. There is so much more to consider than size when breeding.

YorkieShadow · 05-29-2009, 05:44 PM

I will say that with the time I have been here on YT and not just on YT but IRL I have heard a few people say they would never breed a female under 5 lbs. then they will post their pups up for sell or just be chit chatting in a thread and say their female (who we knew they breed )is only 3-4 lbs.

05-23-2009, 04:45 AM	#46
NIKI1969UK Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 178	I am still a newbie but I would just like to add that we are all entitled to our opinion's. There are somethings that I agree with and disagree with on this discussion. I would of thought breeding a 3lb bitch would be dangerous but I don't breed Yorkies. I also felt sorry for the Bitch being rehomed because she couldn't produce future puppies, but I also appreciate that it really is a business your run, and you made sure the dog went to a good home which was really important. I personally couldn't breed any breed of dog because I would always worry about who bought the puppies, but this is how I personally feel and I am entitled to my thoughts and feelings without insulting anyone. I am glad that there are breeders out there because I wouldn't have Mika if there wasn't. __________________ Mika 3.11.08 My

05-23-2009, 09:04 AM	#48
Ladymom Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,317	Thanks for posting this, Nancy. Many breeders prefer a general weight range of 4-7 four pounds believing that size retains desired Toy qualities while maintaining optimum health. The Yorkie Standard states weight "must not exceed seven pounds" and as a prospective pet owner you should realize that even at 7 pounds, the Yorkie is still a small dog. (Females weighing less than 5 pounds are considered by most breeders to be unsuitable for breeding.) Yorkshire Terrier Club of America (Awards) Reputable breeders always follow the breed club's guidelines IMO. __________________ http://www.myladysdogbows.com/ http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref...6213341?ref=nf

05-23-2009, 10:07 AM	#49
NIKI1969UK Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 178	I would like to say one more thing. I was not against anyone rehoming their retired breeders. I in fact am adopting a little girl who was used as a breeder. That is probably another reason I feel so strongly about not breeding these tinies. I understand the concept that they need good homes completely that was not the reason for the question. I stated my reason for asking. It is very confusing to some of us why some are attacked for even asking if it would be ok to breed a 3lb girl and others are upheld for doing so. I agree with you totally. Mika is a 6lb male and I think he is small. The thought of a 3lb Female carrying puppies seems cruel and unnecessary but there are people out there who just want a small Yorkie and don't think about the dangers the Mum had to go through to produce this puppy for the market. I certainly wasn't having a dig at you, or anyone. Please believe me and I apologise if it sounded like that. __________________ Mika 3.11.08 My

05-29-2009, 05:01 PM	#56
oopsmyhalofello Just Pawz Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Liverpool, NY Posts: 1,827	Maybe I should start another post to ask this, but I have thought about the size of the stud dog used for breeding in the past too. I understand the risks involved with complications in breeding a tiny female are entirely different.. but Why is it ok for breeders to use tiny tiny males? They are going to possibly produce tiny tiny puppies that are difficult to find suitable homes for as they need extra care, I never hear anything about the size of the stud though? __________________

05-23-2009, 08:26 AM	#47
nanahas3 ♥Love My Snuggle Bugs♥ Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 4,290	I would like to say one more thing. I was not against anyone rehoming their retired breeders. I in fact am adopting a little girl who was used as a breeder. That is probably another reason I feel so strongly about not breeding these tinies. I understand the concept that they need good homes completely that was not the reason for the question. I stated my reason for asking. It is very confusing to some of us why some are attacked for even asking if it would be ok to breed a 3lb girl and others are upheld for doing so.

05-23-2009, 04:59 PM	#50
bjh Donating YT 5000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 7,959	I would never breed a female under 5 lbs and I actually prefer them to be close to 7 lbs. I know some people do breed tiny females but to me it is not in the best interest of the breed. I am sure some people that have bred for many years may have the proper knowledge to do it and maybe they don't have lots of problems but I think it sets a bad example. People will go out and buy a tiny female and breed her without knowing what they are doing just because they have seen other people do it. It is not worth the life of a tiny momma just to produce tiny pet puppies. There is so much more to consider when trying to breed quality yorkies. Too many people give up attitude, soundness and type just to breed a small pretty dog. JMHO

05-23-2009, 05:30 PM	#51
nanahas3 ♥Love My Snuggle Bugs♥ Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 4,290	[QUOTE=bjh;2635035]I would never breed a female under 5 lbs and I actually prefer them to be close to 7 lbs. I know some people do breed tiny females but to me it is not in the best interest of the breed. I am sure some people that have bred for many years may have the proper knowledge to do it and maybe they don't have lots of problems but I think it sets a bad example. People will go out and buy a tiny female and breed her without knowing what they are doing just because they have seen other people do it. It is not worth the life of a tiny momma just to produce tiny pet puppies. There is so much more to consider when trying to breed quality yorkies. Too many people give up attitude, soundness and type JMHO Thanks this is how I feel also. I am not a breeder but when I first got my little male I was asked by a family member if we could let him stud her little girl (3.4) lbs. I thank God I had found YT and came to this section and asked before hand because I found out how risky it was and told her so she has decided not to breed her. Not everyone are experts and not all find YT there are alot of us novices out there and I believe that when we see sites selling babies from tinies alot of us think it has to be ok because we are uninformed. I tell everyone who asks me now about breed standards and the problems with tinies. Our little guy is a 3lb baby and they are a lot of work to keep them from injuries etc. *CharleneMama to Laddy and Lolita*

05-29-2009, 05:23 PM	#57
YorkieShadow BANNED! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Posts: 9,999	I personally would not breed any dog under 5 lbs, even with 5 lbs you have a chance at losing your baby. and even at 5 lbs I would have her checked and see what a vet thought about it. as for the word "teacup" you have many breeders that use this word for making more $$$ off their smaller pups. but there are some that call the smaller ones "teacups" meaning smaller and don't say it to get more $$$ they just use the word as others do small, tiny, teenie, runt.

05-29-2009, 05:44 PM	#60
YorkieShadow BANNED! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Posts: 9,999	I will say that with the time I have been here on YT and not just on YT but IRL I have heard a few people say they would never breed a female under 5 lbs. then they will post their pups up for sell or just be chit chatting in a thread and say their female (who we knew they breed )is only 3-4 lbs.