The passbook you are referring to is a printed document by the IABCA to have judges sign as you show your dog for easy record keeping of your shows. It IS NOT a registration made by the UCI e.V. as you clearly stated it is stamped by Nick Thompson, not Gunter Knoben. The information in the passbook is information that is supplied by the person registering a dog for show.There is nothing lost in translation here, since I don,t have to use a translator.

Can I ask why Gunther took our money and signed titles on dogs he does not consider a Biewer? If these dogs are not Biewers in his eyes he should have never issued titles to them. I have a title in my hands with Gunther's signature that was earned on June 21, 2008. I am still waiting for other titles but I have 4 signed by Gunther in my hands that have Huey's breed listed as a Biewer. Huey has earned 18 international titles. So are you saying he allowed me to enter and earn titles at all these shows, sign the titles and then say they are invalid?

I so agree with you. This breed is truly amazing and beautiful but you guys need to come together and work as a team to show the quality and beauty this breed exhibits. Please dont take this wrong.

I was trying to make a point,because some of you are constantly criticizing the BTCA for breeding a Biewer Terrier,with a refined standard. Since many of you pride yourselves on supposedly following the German rules.Than you should be held accountable to the German rules.If you would follow these rules of the UCI e.V. under Guenther Knoben,the one that you have your titles from,most of your dogs wouldn't even be able to show and never been eligible for any titles.The problem has always been the IABCA and not the UCI e.V..The IABCA entered and titled the Biewers,even so the UCI had not even recognized the Biewer as a breed until.Nov.2007.Realistically how could those Titles be valid???Some of you might remember the mess a couple years ago.The point is, that the IABCA buys Championships by the hundreds from the UCI .The IABCA issues them to all the breeds in their show venues.They are the ones that write them here in the States.In Germany these Champion chips are handed out at ring side immediately.That the IABCA is able to issue International Titles, was based on the relationship Guenther Knoben had with Nick Thompson.This relationship was based on trust.The Standard of the UCI on the different breeds had to be followed and only those dogs had been eligible for International Titles.Since Jeff took over the IABCA he has handed out these Titles to dogs , that by no means should have earned them since they do not fit the rules of the UCI.How much effort you have put into your Biewer and how great you think your dog is, has nothing to do with the rules.Per Mr. Knoben the new Standard of the Biewer was send to Jeff month ago and should have been used.When Jeff manages to produce the translated standard of the UCI ,you all are going to discover that the BTCA is right on target.

Our goal isn't getting into AKC first. Rather to understand the health and well being of the breed. Document the Biewers into several generations. Which we have been able to already acheive, with being the club that has the first true American bred Biewers. We have 3 American bred litters within our club. We will be working on our 4th generation in the very near future. It is time and this documentation that is important to us. One thing that you should know about the BAPPC is that we aren't selling into many breeding homes. We are taking our time in testing and developing our breed. Many of our offspring are placed with our members to work side by side, test and try and bring a better representation into the next generation. Breeders in our opinion are important.. true enough, but our members that represent our pet placement are like gold to our breeding programs. Without our pet homes, that help us document the litters in areas that the BAPPC feels important to the development of the breed, then why breed? There for if you feel this is heading down the wrong path, it is just a matter of your opinion.

No Sue, it is once again mirroring the BTCA who has done this all along. Way before you. You are not kidding anybody and this is what we want the public to know. Many of our members were breeding and watching these Biewers way before joining the BTCA. And collectively, through sharing information and coming together as one has finally brought light to a mystery we now know of. Unfortunately, your pride has gotten in the way and instead of helping the breed, you are now hurt it. I was working on LS cases way before you. You are the one who contacted me to try to add to your knowledge base but the base was already established and we shared that information with our members. Breeders outside didn't want to hear about the LS cases and would sweep their breeding problems under the rug unbenounced to the customers they sold their puppies to.

So now you hide your breeding problems amongst your members because you can't trust selling your puppies to pet or breeding homes. At least we know what we have and can now offer beautiful, healthy Biewers to the public. This is not to say there would be a health issue down the road, however, we are confident in what we have produced and will back up our puppies.

Accidental breeding /Yorkie/Shih???

Yeaaaaaaa I got Jemma. A Shorkie with all the wrong Biewer colorings, lol. I'll start a club for Shorkies. All variations accepted. No tail, tail, all colors, one color, undershot, over shot. Just had to make a joke. There are Shorkie clubs or club. But I have never seen so much slandering towards each breeder. They actually post negative things right on their site naming other breeders and bashing them. Oh my, so sad to see such nonsense. But not joking about my Jemma. She is my little baby, always will be. And she sure is darn cute!!
BTW, I personally love the look of the Biewers. I just believe they are a bit overpriced. Like a Shorki. Good grief, I've seen them for over 2 grand......ummmmm. that's sick. And people pay it, for the lfe of me, I'll never understand why.
Carol and Jemma

I find this sentence highly offensive.

I usually stay out of these types of discussions as it seems that no good ever comes from them. It is no secret that the different clubs disagree on a number of issues and sadly can't come together. Personally, I feel that this is natural seeing as we are all working with a breed that is very new and that we ALL have a lot to learn about. I do believe that each club is doing what they truly feel is best for these dogs and that the reasons things get so heated is because most people involved are very passionate about them. What I get tired of seeing are the constant posts that attack one another. The reason I have quoted this thread is because it is the second attack on a club that I belong to and you know very little about. What value was added to the discussion by once again trying to belittle one club to make yours sound better?

These types of discussions could go a whole lot further if people would put their feelings for one another aside and focus on the topic. If you (in the general term and not pointed at any one person / group in particular) have something to add, then great. If you don't or do not want to answer a question, then don't. Time and time again I have seen personal attacks in regards to someone's physical appearance, the type of house they live in, whether someone breeds or not, their family matters, etc. What does this have to do with the dogs??? I wish everyone would ask themselves that question before making comments and if the answer is "It doesn't", then don't post / say it!

In regards to the various topics that have been discussed, I will share my opinion for those who care. If you agree or disagree, that is fine.....it is your right to do either or. I am more than happy to discuss my feelings on anything that I post, but will not waste my time on attacks or going tit for tat on anything.

As I have stated, the three active (there is another Biewer club...two actually....that exist but don't seem to be as publicly active) U.S. clubs do not see eye to eye on different issues and that is why they are separate and cannot come together as one. Will this change one day? Perhaps, but I don't think it will be anytime soon. The truth is that we all got involved with a relatively new breed and not all of the answers are known. Of course, as each person / group develops their opinion(s) as to what the answers are, they feel that theirs is right and others are wrong. Again, this is only natural. What I wish is that people would stop trying to force their opinions on others and just work on what they feel is right. No one is better than one another just because of the path that they are taking. As long as each person is doing what they truly feel is right for the development of these dogs, this is the most important thing.

To say that one person has changed their mind over the past few years is laughable. I think that this has been seen in each club and honestly, I would worry about a club that hadn't changed their way of thinking on any subject. Not everything is known about the Biewers and until we (collectively) have all of the answers, we all need to keep open minds and constantly question what is / is not known. Once you (again, in general) believe that you have the answer, take it and move forward. If you want to share it with others, then do so, but understand that not everyone will agree. One of the biggest examples I can think of in which the topic has come full circle is registration. It wasn't that long ago that one club decided to promote a single German registry. They felt that this was the path that should be taken and that was their right. Instead of just taking that path and focusing on their own work, they started announcing that the other clubs were banned from this registry (which was only true in the sense that the clubs decided not to use that registry anymore and by doing so, were "banned" because the registry was not happy about it). They also announced that dogs registered anywhere else were devalued as well as some other untrue statements. Now, however, that same club is claiming that the very same registry they promoted as the premier registry is crooked and a place where pedigrees can be bought no matter the dog. While I don't disagree with making a decision, promoting it, and then later changing that decision, I do have a problem with how everyone who didn't agree was attacked.

I see this happening again with the MARS testing. If one group feels that this is the path that should be taken, then I applaud them for making a decision and do feel that they should follow it until it either pans out or falls through. They did share the fact that they were following this path with the other clubs and the general public. The other clubs explored this route and don't agree that this is the path that should be taken. This doesn't make one club better than another.....it just means that one club is taking a different route than the others. I can only speak for the club that I belong to (BAPPC) and say that when this information was shared, we did explore the idea. We didn't simply say that we weren't going to do it because another club was. Based on the information given to us by the company, we don't feel it is an accurate test to base the future of these dogs on. The information that we have from the company states that their test is not capable of showing what is / is not behind our dogs. My personal opinion is that if the company itself does not feel it can do it, the information is not reliable enough to decide something as important as the future of the beautiful dogs that I share my home with. From the posts / information I have read, the BTCA strongly believes in this test and that is their right. What I would like to see is those who agree with the test respect the opinion of those who do not. Instead, I have seen it mentioned a number of times that the reason people don't agree is because we are too stupid to understand modern day science.

In regards to how these dogs should be bred, again, I don't think anyone has the definite answer. Instead, everyone has an opinion based on their own research. It is my honest opinion that there is not a single club in the U.S. that is truly breeding Biewer to Biewer. This is not to take a stab at any one person or group, just something that I see. What I wish is that people would be open and honest about what they are doing. I personally don't feel that we are able to do this yet and don't believe that we will be able to do it anytime soon. While some state that this is the way that it should be done, their actions show differently.

As for the UCI and the titles issued, I really can't speak to that as it seems that the information given to one group contradicts that given to another. I would be interested in hearing what is considered a Biewer under the UCI in regards to how many generations you have to go back without a Yorkshire / Splitter being bred in. Either way you look at it, this seems extremely counter productive to me as so very many of the Biewers have a Yorkshire within a small number of generations. Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to the MARS test, Yorkies were bred into the different lines. For the most part, Germany registers Biewers based on color regardless of how close the Yorkie is in the lines. If the UCI is not doing the same, do they enforce this rule with those showing under them in Germany? Any information you could share would be appreciated as showing is something that I truly enjoy.

Again, this is just my opinion so please take it for what it is worth.

Can you tell me what Biewers do not have Yorkies in there lines?

As far as splitters are you refering to ones that are Yorkie colored therefore considered a Yorkie in Germany?

I am not sure, but maybe she meant it was sick that someone charges 2 grand for a shorkie?
Not sure, but thats how I took it. I have seen Biewers priced way higher than that, so I would think that if she were talking about them, she would have said a much higher number.
I think that Biewers and Parties are beautiful, whether they are the same or different. Then again, I believe that parties should be allowed to be shown as well :)

An well written explaination on "differences" in opinions. :thumbup:

Jenn
Thank you for this wonderful explaination. I hope people who are "new to the breed" or thinking about Biewers, read and listen to what you've said.

The main difference between the clubs really is the "people" who choose to join or follow either club. All have very valuable ideas and thoughts to add to this breed and as you stated, we have the right to agree or disagree. To belittle or degrade people for their beliefs or to attack ones family or circumstances has no part in these discussions. To me, these attacks speak volumns about ones character and make it very clear who I would and would not want to associate with. For one to be right, doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

-Diana :animal-pa

Nancy, the bashing is not in the post. It is the way the post was used to once again distort certain facts. See all the thumbs up they get from their buddies.

Truthfully, it's very hard for me to get all the clubs straight in my mind, and I have no idea which clubs are which clubs, but I'm learning. I do find it great to read a civil reply, even though I don't necessarily agree with it.

I thought JHurtt post was saying that we all have different methods, and we are all doing what we think is best for the breed, and saying that only one club has all the truth and facts, at this early stage of the breed, is a little premature.

I have to say, I agree with this, and even those who aren't members of any club would agree with this point. I also hate the fact that some people seem to think that people give a thumbs up, just because a person is liked, and not because they agree with the statement. I would never give thumbs up, just because I was "buddies" with a person. I would have given JHutt's post thumbs up too, but it seemed a little redundant to do so. I thought it was wonderfully refreshing, and it reassured me a little that that are many who truly love this breed and are looking out for it's best interest and not just long term goals.