Bogus Health Guarantee

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by TLC

I am pretty up to date on Joey and NO I don't feel there is anything fishy going on....Not only does he have a high post BAT, his Protein C test is pretty much border line with an LS reading. The hospital he is going to is a Specialty hospital in the Tri-Stat area, so it isn't a random place just guessing at things....

It would be wonderful if Joey didn't have a shunt or MVD, as then he wouldn't have to endure what he will have to endure for his entire life

I agree. The diagnosis was made after a series of tests by experienced vets.

I think we should wish the OP well, not try to discredit her.

[Ellie May]

No, it does not seem fishy to me.
Yes, paired bile acids should've been done but nevertheless, the one was high.
The Protein C test sent to Cornell was close to shunt territory.
A shunt was seen.
U/S is sometimes said to be inconclusive because shunts that should be seen are not...not the other way around.

[ARCHIE]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

I'm not a daily YT follower, so have had to do a quick scan of posts related to Joey's problem, and what I'm coming up with is something fishy going on here. Does anyone else reading this stuff feel this is a rush job getting into surgery on flimsy evidence? No paired bile acids, and claiming they see a shunt vessel on ultrasound??? They're cutting up this puppy today? Do you really think they'll come back and say "oops, no shunt" if they don't find one? Did you get a second opinion on something this big??? I feel bad for the breeder.

I really don't think Donna needs to read what your wrote above.
Feel bad for the breeder, what about Donna and little Joey and
the money it will take to make him well? Something she did not
plan on at all having confidence of his health from where she
bought him. I think you owe Donna an apology.
Speculation of what is happening is not helping anyone.
Leave it to the experts.

[magicgenie]

Apologize for what??? I think it's irresponsible to not have gotten a second opinion, especially since they have access to Cornell, a place that is known for its expertise with this condition. As far as I can tell the breeder has not breached her guarantee, but the buyer has chosen not to exercise her option to return the puppy, so why all this about "breeder should do the right thing..." And, for those of you who think a shunt showing up on ultrasound is reason to rush into surgery, I have a set of medical records you might enjoy perusing.

[lksdolls]

Originally Posted by drabinowitz43

First, let me set the record straight by saying Linda is absolutely right about what her health guarantee said and I just didn't pay careful attention to what I was reading, which is not too bright, but buying a puppy is an emotional, not a business decision on a pet buyer's part, and I fell in love with Joey's picture. I want to add that I too felt a connection to Linda, had checked her references, and had nothing but good feelings about the whole transaction. When Joey's initial bloodwork came back abnormal, we did speak, and Linda said she had no history of liver problems with her dogs, had not heard of MVD (which I thought Joey might've had at the time), it was left at that. I think I was surprised that there was no follow-up regarding the other dogs and I saw other people on YT thinking about getting one of Linda's pups after their own pet store puppy tragically died, and I kept my mouth shut because the last thing I want to do is hurt someone's livelihood and spread drama. But I was upset and I did think about these people often because this was at the same time Linda and I spoke about Joey's initial bloodwork. I could've pm'd them and I didn't and that's my fault. I started emailing Linda almost a week ago and I think I sent a total of four emails, but only placed one call, and that's also my fault. I just hate asking for money, I am not a haggler, but the medical costs are staggering and I was so upset about Joey being ill and not having the funds for the surgery. When Linda did not respond to my emails, I began getting more upset, and I only went on this forum because I needed validation that the breeder should take some responsibility for this and I needed emotional support. There is no legal obligation, but I needed more support and communication and I thought I would get it here, and I did, and it has been a saving grace. I am sorry that I didn't speak to Linda directly before she read these posts. A lot of the comments are now being taken out of context, for example I am not suggesting that the breeder would put down her dog, the opposite is true. I was so surprised not to have heard from Linda that I could not imagine why she would rather take back a sick pup that needs thousands of dollars of treatment, diet,etc. over his lifetime than make a gesture of any kind of help to me. Many other comments that are being quoted are also out of context, that is just inherent when we email rather than speak to people.

Linda, I will email you, but please do not feel that you ever have to defend yourself, I think the lack of communication at this trying time led to a lot of what ensued. Most of us are going through trying times in this economy and I think this latest just put me over the top. I want to add that Joey is the most phenomenal puppy I have ever met and I sit here crying right now as he is in surgery. He may have a defective liver, but the rest of his gene pool is quite wonderful, and I am so sorry for any pain I may have caused you. With that being said, I will now sign off and try to go to work, but it is going to be a tough day, please keep us in your thoughts and prayers. Thanks.

Just bear with me as I had too little sleep last night and am just a bit testy today. Yes I do feel I need to defend myself. Breeding is not my business, it is my love for the breed and sharing that love with others. This is NOT my livelyhood. You are right, I never heard of MVD but immediately did research to learn about it. I did not send out a sick puppy. He was vet checked and passed. What the vet nor I knew was something hidden and we had no history of liver shunts. So to those suggesting that I would purposely continue producing potential liver shunt pups, forget it. I'm not that stupid. I quit reading many of the YT threads because some have a tendency to go overboard without knowing all the facts. Trashing someone tends to be the norm. I am not suggesting that this was your intent but certainly is leaning that way. I do offer another pup of equal value (not of less value) as a replacement should you return Joey or an additional pup. It is very clear that I don't give cash refunds regardless. Some have suggested that if I was responsible, I would refund the purchase price. I say to you, walk in my shoes for a day. If I had it, I would try and assist with some of the expense not exceeding the purchase price, just because that's what I would do and not because anyone here thinks that's what I should do. But my husband's medical bills for his heart attack, even with insurance, has been killing us and it has been a struggle to send a bare minimum amount each month.

I am also sorry you didn't speak to me before you started this thread and before I read it. I'm sorry I wasn't there for emotional support when you needed it but I didn't know and you didn't call. I don't live on the internet and occassionally, I don't even turn the computer on for over a week. You have said some things that really hurt but since you weren't mentioning names I guess that made it OK. I don't think that some comments were taken out of context, like suggesting I offered a bogus health guarantee or that would put the dog down if he was returned, he would be of no value, or that I was a phony, just to mention a few.

You say you could not imagine why I would rather take back a sick pup that needs thousands of dollars of treatment, diet,etc. over his lifetime than make a gesture of any kind of help to me. I would love to make that gesture but I can guarantee you that my finances are in much worse shape than yours.
I spent 4 years caring for a special needs guy who received an accidental head injury at two weeks old, long story and it's somewhere here on YT. He would have made someone very happy but I wouldn't part with him. Most breeders would have put him down and in the end, that's exactly what I had to do after he suffered another seizure and stroke leaving his back end with no movement. Because he had seizures, some here would pressume it as inherited. Bo was a sick puppy from the accident but gave us many years of enjoyment and love. Like a mother hen, I was very protective of him. If Joey was retuned, I would do the same for him. I love all our kids but once in a while there is one that sticks in your heart. Joey is one of them.

<I think I was surprised that there was no follow-up regarding the other dogs and I saw other people on YT thinking about getting one of Linda's pups after their own pet store puppy tragically died, and I kept my mouth shut because the last thing I want to do is hurt someone's livelihood and spread drama. But I was upset and I did think about these people often because this was at the same time Linda and I spoke about Joey's initial bloodwork. I could've pm'd them and I didn't and that's my fault.>

You are suggesting that ALL our pups have a problem and that's not the case. You say you didn't want to spread drama but that's exactly what you have done here. I state again, breeding is not my livelihood. If it was, I would have many more dogs and produce many more pups a year. Last year we had all the way of 7 puppies available and I still have Sparkie and Tripper who has not found their forever homes. Gee, I'm just rolling in the money left and right.

I hope Joey's surgery went well. I wish him a speedy recovery. I guess I'll hear from you when you are home from work.

[TLC]

Reading these posts has become yet another eye opener for me. It is really uneasy to keep reading about more and more breeders, just breeding and not fully aware of the major genetic defects that can arise like Liver Shunts and MVD. **WOW**

I hope more people read this thread and realize that you better be 110% prepared and research your butt off when looking for a pup

Donna, hopefully things will work out ok with Joey and you being able to pay for all of this. It totally sucks that you were hit with caring and paying for an LS baby...

[lksdolls]

Originally Posted by TLC

Reading these posts has become yet another eye opener for me. It is really uneasy to keep reading about more and more breeders, just breeding and not fully aware of the major genetic defects that can arise like Liver Shunts and MVD. **WOW**

I hope more people read this thread and realize that you better be 110% prepared and research your butt off when looking for a pup

Donna, hopefully things will work out ok with Joey and you being able to pay for all of this. It totally sucks that you were hit with caring and paying for an LS baby...

Once again there is a suggestion that I am not fully aware of major genetic defects that can arise. The key word it "CAN". If we all lived around that "CAN", people wouldn't have babies. We have a good gene pool with one mishap. Should I quit breeding all together because of this one problem? Should my reputation be trashed because of one unknown. And those looking for pups should also be aware that yorkies are 1200 times more likely than any other breed to have or get liver shunts. And yes, I am very aware that there are various degrees of liver shunts but it is a fact that yorkies are more prone to this problem than any other breed. And I am just as sick about the whole situation as Donna. Joey is one of my kids.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by TLC

Reading these posts has become yet another eye opener for me. It is really uneasy to keep reading about more and more breeders, just breeding and not fully aware of the major genetic defects that can arise like Liver Shunts and MVD. **WOW**

I hope more people read this thread and realize that you better be 110% prepared and research your butt off when looking for a pup

Donna, hopefully things will work out ok with Joey and you being able to pay for all of this. It totally sucks that you were hit with caring and paying for an LS baby...

I agree. With Yorkies being thirty-six times more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds combined, it is inexcusable IMO for anyone breeding Yorkies to not be thoroughly knowledgable about liver disease in the breed.

It really is "buyer beware" when buying a Yorkie puppy. Always insist to see proof that the breeder has bile acid tested all her breeding dogs and make sure you follow up with a bile acids test as Dr. Center recommends at 20 weeks. Insist on getting a clause in your contract that the breeder will reimburse you for medical expenses up to the purchase price of the puppy should he be found to have MVD or a shunt.

Reputable breeders take responsibility for the puppies they produce for their lifetime, including financial responsibility. If a breeder is unable to do so, she should not be breeding IMO.

[magicgenie]

and return the puppy to Linda.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by lksdolls

Once again there is a suggestion that I am not fully aware of major genetic defects that can arise. The key word it "CAN". If we all lived around that "CAN", people wouldn't have babies. We have a good gene pool with one mishap. Should I quit breeding all together because of this one problem? Should my reputation be trashed because of one unknown. And those looking for pups should also be aware that yorkies are 1200 times more likely than any other breed to have or get liver shunts. And yes, I am very aware that there are various degrees of liver shunts but it is a fact that yorkies are more prone to this problem than any other breed. And I am just as sick about the whole situation as Donna. Joey is one of my kids.

Do you know why Yorkies are more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds? Not bad luck as you suggest, but because of genetics. Until a genetic marker is found, the only way to deal with the problem is for breeders to routinely bile acid test all breeding dogs and make sure her puppies are being bile acid tested per Dr. Center's recommendation:

"The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others)."

If you are doing this, then Joey's shunt was an "unknown" and not preventable. If you are not, you are responsible for Joey and the statistic from U of T:

"In the United States, Yorkshire terriers have almost a 36 times greater risk of developing shunts than all other breeds combined."


Portosystemic Shunts FAQ

[ARCHIE]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Do you know why Yorkies are more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds? Not bad luck as you suggest, but because of genetics. Until a genetic marker is found, the only way to deal with the problem is for breeders to routinely bile acid test all breeding dogs and make sure her puppies are being bile acid tested per Dr. Center's recommendation:

"The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others)."

If you are doing this, then Joey's shunt was an "unknown" and not preventable. If you are not, you are responsible for Joey and the statistic from U of T:

"In the United States, Yorkshire terriers have almost a 36 times greater risk of developing shunts than all other breeds combined."


Portosystemic Shunts FAQ

That was very informative and thank you for posting it.

[drabinowitz43]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

and return the puppy to Linda.

I just checked in really quick from work to post that I haven't heard anything about Joey's surgery yet, and I am feeling really sick to have read this thread. I have to work now and will address this somehow later, but for now, let me ask you one thing: If Linda can't afford to help with any of the medical expenses for Joey, why would you suggest returning the pup to her, or are you just enjoying some sarcasm at my expense? Maybe Linda and you don't realize that, unlike the brain injured pup, Joey will die a devastating and painful death if I return him to Linda and she tries to care for him without obtaining surgery. People who don't do their research on this and other liver diseases have no business expressing their hurtful opinions at a time like this.

[magicgenie]

Originally Posted by ARCHIE

Are you insane! Donna has had Joey since last Decemeber and loves
this little one with all her heart. How in the world could she ever
let him go and how in the world could you even suggest something
like this? She is going in debt to give Joey a life and you suggest
she should give him up like he was a piece of paper?
I think your heartless and not someone I wish to converse with.
Bye

Linda offers a perfectly good health guarantee that Donna agreed to when she purchased Joey. It isn't fair to Linda for people to come on here bashing and putting her down now that some of you have decided you don't like the terms of the agreement that was signed before there was any talk about Joey being sick. This is unbelievably unfair to the breeder. I believe with all my heart that the best thing for Joey would have been to go back to Linda. Donna can't afford the surgery that he probably doesn't need anyway. There are times when returning a puppy is absolutely the right thing to do.

[TLC]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

and return the puppy to Linda.

Yeah - 'that's the right thing to do' - ARE YOU JOKING

[TLC]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

linda offers a perfectly good health guarantee that donna agreed to when she purchased joey. It isn't fair to linda for people to come on here bashing and putting her down now that some of you have decided you don't like the terms of the agreement that was signed before there was any talk about joey being sick. This is unbelievably unfair to the breeder. I believe with all my heart that the best thing for joey would have been to go back to linda. Donna can't afford the surgery that he probably doesn't need anyway. There are times when returning a puppy is absolutely the right thing to do.

FYI: Some how - Donna is doing the right thing for Joey - she is paying for his liver shunt surgery and saving his life !!!!