Bogus Health Guarantee

[TLC]

Originally Posted by lksdolls

Just bear with me as I had too little sleep last night and am just a bit testy today. Yes I do feel I need to defend myself. Breeding is not my business, it is my love for the breed and sharing that love with others. This is NOT my livelyhood. You are right, I never heard of MVD but immediately did research to learn about it. I did not send out a sick puppy. He was vet checked and passed. What the vet nor I knew was something hidden and we had no history of liver shunts. So to those suggesting that I would purposely continue producing potential liver shunt pups, forget it. I'm not that stupid. I quit reading many of the YT threads because some have a tendency to go overboard without knowing all the facts. Trashing someone tends to be the norm. I am not suggesting that this was your intent but certainly is leaning that way. I do offer another pup of equal value (not of less value) as a replacement should you return Joey or an additional pup. It is very clear that I don't give cash refunds regardless. Some have suggested that if I was responsible, I would refund the purchase price. I say to you, walk in my shoes for a day. If I had it, I would try and assist with some of the expense not exceeding the purchase price, just because that's what I would do and not because anyone here thinks that's what I should do. But my husband's medical bills for his heart attack, even with insurance, has been killing us and it has been a struggle to send a bare minimum amount each month.

I am also sorry you didn't speak to me before you started this thread and before I read it. I'm sorry I wasn't there for emotional support when you needed it but I didn't know and you didn't call. I don't live on the internet and occassionally, I don't even turn the computer on for over a week. You have said some things that really hurt but since you weren't mentioning names I guess that made it OK. I don't think that some comments were taken out of context, like suggesting I offered a bogus health guarantee or that would put the dog down if he was returned, he would be of no value, or that I was a phony, just to mention a few.

You say you could not imagine why I would rather take back a sick pup that needs thousands of dollars of treatment, diet,etc. over his lifetime than make a gesture of any kind of help to me. I would love to make that gesture but I can guarantee you that my finances are in much worse shape than yours.
I spent 4 years caring for a special needs guy who received an accidental head injury at two weeks old, long story and it's somewhere here on YT. He would have made someone very happy but I wouldn't part with him. Most breeders would have put him down and in the end, that's exactly what I had to do after he suffered another seizure and stroke leaving his back end with no movement. Because he had seizures, some here would pressume it as inherited. Bo was a sick puppy from the accident but gave us many years of enjoyment and love. Like a mother hen, I was very protective of him. If Joey was retuned, I would do the same for him. I love all our kids but once in a while there is one that sticks in your heart. Joey is one of them.

<I think I was surprised that there was no follow-up regarding the other dogs and I saw other people on YT thinking about getting one of Linda's pups after their own pet store puppy tragically died, and I kept my mouth shut because the last thing I want to do is hurt someone's livelihood and spread drama. But I was upset and I did think about these people often because this was at the same time Linda and I spoke about Joey's initial bloodwork. I could've pm'd them and I didn't and that's my fault.>

You are suggesting that ALL our pups have a problem and that's not the case. You say you didn't want to spread drama but that's exactly what you have done here. I state again, breeding is not my livelihood. If it was, I would have many more dogs and produce many more pups a year. Last year we had all the way of 7 puppies available and I still have Sparkie and Tripper who has not found their forever homes. Gee, I'm just rolling in the money left and right.

I hope Joey's surgery went well. I wish him a speedy recovery. I guess I'll hear from you when you are home from work.

Originally Posted by lksdolls

Once again there is a suggestion that I am not fully aware of major genetic defects that can arise. The key word it "CAN". If we all lived around that "CAN", people wouldn't have babies. We have a good gene pool with one mishap. Should I quit breeding all together because of this one problem? Should my reputation be trashed because of one unknown. And those looking for pups should also be aware that yorkies are 1200 times more likely than any other breed to have or get liver shunts. And yes, I am very aware that there are various degrees of liver shunts but it is a fact that yorkies are more prone to this problem than any other breed. And I am just as sick about the whole situation as Donna. Joey is one of my kids.

You said it yourself...

[lksdolls]

Originally Posted by drabinowitz43

I just checked in really quick from work to post that I haven't heard anything about Joey's surgery yet, and I am feeling really sick to have read this thread. I have to work now and will address this somehow later, but for now, let me ask you one thing: If Linda can't afford to help with any of the medical expenses for Joey, why would you suggest returning the pup to her, or are you just enjoying some sarcasm at my expense? Maybe Linda and you don't realize that, unlike the brain injured pup, Joey will die a devastating and painful death if I return him to Linda and she tries to care for him without obtaining surgery. People who don't do their research on this and other liver diseases have no business expressing their hurtful opinions at a time like this.

This is going to stop now. I was not trying to compare Joey's problem to Bo. I will no longer be posting here so feel free to say what ever you all like. Although some of you may not believe it, this has been just as devestating emotionally for me as it has for Donna and Joey. I choose not to continue to partisipate in mis-quoted and mis-understood statements.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by lksdolls

This is going to stop now. I was not trying to compare Joey's problem to Bo. I will no longer be posting here so feel free to say what ever you all like. Although some of you may not believe it, this has been just as devestating emotionally for me as it has for Donna and Joey. I choose not to continue to partisipate in mis-quoted and mis-understood statements.

You can clear up some misunderstanding by explaining how you screen for liver shunts in your breeding program instead of just disappearing.

[TLC]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

Linda offers a perfectly good health guarantee that Donna agreed to when she purchased Joey. It isn't fair to Linda for people to come on here bashing and putting her down now that some of you have decided you don't like the terms of the agreement that was signed before there was any talk about Joey being sick. This is unbelievably unfair to the breeder. I believe with all my heart that the best thing for Joey would have been to go back to Linda. Donna can't afford the surgery that he probably doesn't need anyway. There are times when returning a puppy is absolutely the right thing to do.

Are you caring for and loving Joey right now? Are you a Vet Specialist? Have you seen Joey's medical records? Are you a fly on the wall right now inside that surgery room where Joey is having his shunt closed? I have no idea who you are, but you have got to be joking....

BTW - no one is bashing this breeder. Some of us happen to be very experienced with LS and MVD dogs. We are here to help, guide and support a New Parent that is facing raising and care for both emotionally and financially an LS dog. And I stand by what I have said, I believe a responsible breeder would refund the cost of the pup in this LS situation to help offset the cost of his huge medical bills....Donna didn't ask for this, but she is doing the responsible and 'right thing' - she is doing everything and anything to save his life - SHE is having his shunt closed as we speak!

[magicgenie]

there are some people on here posting over and over again how yorkies are 36times more likely to get liver shunt than all other breeds combined, but I've never been able to get anyone to tell me how much that actually is. Is it 1 in 10 Yorkies will get it, 1 in 100, HOW MUCH. And, somewhere else I've seen that bile acid tests on young puppies are inaccurate, so I've been trying to figure out how that's helpful. One study suggests that 2.9% of Yorkies are affected, another is closer to 60%. Something else I read suggests that some breeds just have higher bile acids and that it's not necessarily a problem. MVD is inoperable and dogs seems to be living just fine, sometimes needing a little dietary mangement. If they can live with MVD, why is shunt so different? Conservative vets try to treat first with diet and meds, referring only the worst cases for surgery. I think people need to calm down a bit on this subject.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

there are some people on here posting over and over again how yorkies are 36times more likely to get liver shunt than all other breeds combined, but I've never been able to get anyone to tell me how much that actually is. Is it 1 in 10 Yorkies will get it, 1 in 100, HOW MUCH. And, somewhere else I've seen that bile acid tests on young puppies are inaccurate, so I've been trying to figure out how that's helpful. One study suggests that 2.9% of Yorkies are affected, another is closer to 60%. Something else I read suggests that some breeds just have higher bile acids and that it's not necessarily a problem. MVD is inoperable and dogs seems to be living just fine, sometimes needing a little dietary mangement. If they can live with MVD, why is shunt so different? Conservative vets try to treat first with diet and meds, referring only the worst cases for surgery. I think people need to calm down a bit on this subject.

I would suggest you read these links.

Portosystemic Shunts FAQ

PSVA and MVD Research Summary

Hepatic Vascular Disorders - WSAVA 2006 Congress

http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/an...r0905final.pdf

[TLC]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

there are some people on here posting over and over again how yorkies are 36times more likely to get liver shunt than all other breeds combined, but I've never been able to get anyone to tell me how much that actually is. Is it 1 in 10 Yorkies will get it, 1 in 100, HOW MUCH. And, somewhere else I've seen that bile acid tests on young puppies are inaccurate, so I've been trying to figure out how that's helpful. One study suggests that 2.9% of Yorkies are affected, another is closer to 60%. Something else I read suggests that some breeds just have higher bile acids and that it's not necessarily a problem. MVD is inoperable and dogs seems to be living just fine, sometimes needing a little dietary mangement. If they can live with MVD, why is shunt so different? Conservative vets try to treat first with diet and meds, referring only the worst cases for surgery. I think people need to calm down a bit on this subject.

I do not think you have accurate information for you to be basing your opinions on.

Maybe head to U of Tenn and Cornell to start and interview and research from there. Then head over to all the independent group of LS and MVD parents and get all the information you can from them....

BTW - LS and MVD symptoms and degrees vary from dog to dog, don't lump them all together....Some have huge major symptoms (both LS and MVD) and others only from bloodwork.

And unless you have first hand experience with an LS or MVD dog, then it is best to not try and post false or misleading information. These are 2 very, very serious genetic diseases, that aren't going to disappear over night.

[magicgenie]

Originally Posted by TLC

Are you caring for and loving Joey right now? Are you a Vet Specialist? Have you seen Joey's medical records? Are you a fly on the wall right now inside that surgery room where Joey is having his shunt closed? I have no idea who you are, but you have got to be joking....

BTW - no one is bashing this breeder. Some of us happen to be very experienced with LS and MVD dogs. We are here to help, guide and support a New Parent that is facing raising and care for both emotionally and financially an LS dog. And I stand by what I have said, I believe a responsible breeder would refund the cost of the pup in this LS situation to help offset the cost of his huge medical bills....Donna didn't ask for this, but she is doing the responsible and 'right thing' - she is doing everything and anything to save his life - SHE is having his shunt closed as we speak!

How can you say you're not bashing Linda? She sold a puppy for a very low price and offerred to replace it when questions came up about its health. Now Donna has gone and subjected Joey to this horrible, huge surgery without getting a second opinion, and on incomplete diagnostic testing, and you people are demanding that the breeder hand over money for this fiasco. This is not reasonable at all.

[peanut]

I am sorry this is happening to Joey, Donna & Linda, when I posted I didn't know who the breeder was, but now that I do I know Linda will do everything possible she can to make this right with Donna. I am sick at some of the things said on this thread, and before you jump me I have been in those shoes with LS, and know just as much as you, I personally know Dr. Tobias, so I think it is better we leave this to Linda & Donna to settle. I think everyone's point has been made.

[TLC]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

How can you say you're not bashing Linda? She sold a puppy for a very low price and offerred to replace it when questions came up about its health. Now Donna has gone and subjected Joey to this horrible, huge surgery without getting a second opinion, and on incomplete diagnostic testing, and you people are demanding that the breeder hand over money for this fiasco. This is not reasonable at all.

The pup sold for $1000
Joey was seen by his Vet and an Internal Medicine Specialist.
Joey had pre-op blood work that indicate liver issues, he had a high post BAT and he also had a Protein C test that was right on the line for LS. He had an U/S that showed an Shunt AND the U/S showed that he has kidney stones, which relates to his liver impairment.

SO YOU STOP THE FIASO

[peanut]

I think the best thing and most positive thing everyone now can do, is just pray for this little boy, this is a hard time for both sides, and the BS going on here isn't helping them. Bottom line Joey is sick and having surgery that SHOULD be everyone's concern right now.

[Wylie's Mom]

We are very sorry that Joey is sick and we hope only for the best outcome for his recovery following surgery. Please keep us posted.

In the interest of allowing the breeder and the member to continue discussing this matter in private, this thread is now closed.