Bogus Health Guarantee - Page 3 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

lksdolls · 03-10-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Am I missing something, who is the breeder?

You didn't miss anything, it's me. She didn't mention any names.........

chattiesmom · 03-10-2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drabinowitz43

My breeder who I do not feel ready to name, but who does post her puppies on YT, and that is how I found her, has ignored my emails that my puppy who I got in Dec. has just been diagnosed with a liver shunt and is having surgery on Wed. The estimate for the surgery is $3,500 (including neutering, an undescended testical, and four baby teeth extractions). I paid $1,000 plus shipping for the puppy. The health guarantee says I can return the dog and get a refund. I don't want to return the dog, what will she do, put him down? The surgery costs more than 3 times the price of the dog, and I think some sort of reimbursement is in order. I can't believe this has happened. I love this dog and want to provide him the surgery he needs to live, but I don't have the money. Am I being unreasonable?

Both the breeder and buyer should honor the health guarantee as it was written at the time of puppy purchase.

chattiesmom · 03-10-2009, 11:08 PM

I cannot begin to imagine the pain that you are experiencing. It is heart breaking to hear that yet another Yorkie is suffering from Liver Shunt. Hugs to you and I'll keep little Joey in my thoughts and prayers as he undergoes his LS surgery.

lksdolls · 03-10-2009, 11:13 PM

I am going to sign off. I'm exhausted both physically and mentally. If I were one of "those" breeders that has been suggested, do you think I'd be posting my name here or should I have just slipped away into the night never to be heard from again. Good night all. And a special thanks to all those who have sent me supporting PM's. Hugs back at you!

Say an extra prayer tonight for my little Joey.

MyFairLacy · 03-10-2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lksdolls

Before I offered a health guarantee, I did much research to see what others offered. What I offer is common. I did not find one that refunded the purchase price. That's not saying that some will, I just didn't find any and I checked out a ton of breeders guarantees.

Common does not equal right. I've spoken with a few reputable show breeders and all have said they would of course always be willing to take a puppy back at any time, but in the case of a congenital/genetic health issue they would pay cost of treatment up to the purchase price or if treatment exceded that price, would give a full refund. When someone buys a puppy they should expect to receive a healthy one. It is not right to sell a puppy for $1000 that ends up having an expensive health issue. The breeder should be responsible.

I'm glad you are communicating with the OP. Having a health issue arrise does not make you a bad breeder. Even the best breeders will sometimes get a health issue pop up. But what truly makes them a good breeder is tgem being responsible for the puppies they bring into this world and making sure they do all they can to prevent the health issue from happening again.

Liver shunt is genetic which is why it is so common in the Yorkshire terrier. Do you bile acid test your adults before breeding? I hope you will spay/neuter all dogs in joey's line. And I hope you will do the right thing by refunding his purchase price and being there for support.

Breeze · 03-10-2009, 11:57 PM

I have to say I'm so sorry to hear about Joey and his livershunt and wish him and his family all the best. I'm sure Linda is very upset as well, as a matter of fact I know she is heartbroken.

I also think that both the buyer and the breeder must both stick to the purchase agreement regarding the sale of the puppy. If anyone buying the puppy does not agree to the terms the breeder has than please do not buy a puppy from them. I think many buyers see a cute puppy and never think to look at the small print till it's too late.

I have looked at many breeders health guarantees and feel Linda's is more than fair. Even my last puppy I recently purchased has all champion lines both CKC (Can) and AKC champs in every line (incuding parents and grandparents...) and my puppie's health guarantee does not include vet bills at all, period. Just another puppy if my dog dies or needs to be euthanized within 2 years of date of sale due to hereditary illnesses. I feel Linda is being more than fair and caring, the OP agreed to the terms of the agreement.

I'm so sorry the OP is going through this and I wish the best for Joey, the Op and Linda. Linda's family is going through hard times now as well, I hope she does not mind me saying this. But I know she will do the very best she can for Joey and the OP.

drabinowitz43 · 03-11-2009, 04:42 AM

First, let me set the record straight by saying Linda is absolutely right about what her health guarantee said and I just didn't pay careful attention to what I was reading, which is not too bright, but buying a puppy is an emotional, not a business decision on a pet buyer's part, and I fell in love with Joey's picture. I want to add that I too felt a connection to Linda, had checked her references, and had nothing but good feelings about the whole transaction. When Joey's initial bloodwork came back abnormal, we did speak, and Linda said she had no history of liver problems with her dogs, had not heard of MVD (which I thought Joey might've had at the time), it was left at that. I think I was surprised that there was no follow-up regarding the other dogs and I saw other people on YT thinking about getting one of Linda's pups after their own pet store puppy tragically died, and I kept my mouth shut because the last thing I want to do is hurt someone's livelihood and spread drama. But I was upset and I did think about these people often because this was at the same time Linda and I spoke about Joey's initial bloodwork. I could've pm'd them and I didn't and that's my fault. I started emailing Linda almost a week ago and I think I sent a total of four emails, but only placed one call, and that's also my fault. I just hate asking for money, I am not a haggler, but the medical costs are staggering and I was so upset about Joey being ill and not having the funds for the surgery. When Linda did not respond to my emails, I began getting more upset, and I only went on this forum because I needed validation that the breeder should take some responsibility for this and I needed emotional support. There is no legal obligation, but I needed more support and communication and I thought I would get it here, and I did, and it has been a saving grace. I am sorry that I didn't speak to Linda directly before she read these posts. A lot of the comments are now being taken out of context, for example I am not suggesting that the breeder would put down her dog, the opposite is true. I was so surprised not to have heard from Linda that I could not imagine why she would rather take back a sick pup that needs thousands of dollars of treatment, diet,etc. over his lifetime than make a gesture of any kind of help to me. Many other comments that are being quoted are also out of context, that is just inherent when we email rather than speak to people.

Linda, I will email you, but please do not feel that you ever have to defend yourself, I think the lack of communication at this trying time led to a lot of what ensued. Most of us are going through trying times in this economy and I think this latest just put me over the top. I want to add that Joey is the most phenomenal puppy I have ever met and I sit here crying right now as he is in surgery. He may have a defective liver, but the rest of his gene pool is quite wonderful, and I am so sorry for any pain I may have caused you. With that being said, I will now sign off and try to go to work, but it is going to be a tough day, please keep us in your thoughts and prayers. Thanks.

ARCHIE · 03-11-2009, 05:13 AM

Prayer's coming for little Joey today, Donna.
I hope and pray he is as good as new after his surgery this am.

It's sad to read stories like this. You think your getting a healthy
puppy, fall in love with that puppy and then whammy you have
a very sick little guy who needs surgery to survive and lot's of
$$$$ to make this happen. Buying from a repitable breeder is suppose
to protect you from this, right? If this is the very first time this
has happened in this breeder's line than I think she would be more
than willing to pitch in and help with the financial cost to help this
puppy survive and not worry so much about the original contract.
To me that would be what a responsible breeder would do under these
circumstances if she indeed really cared about that puppy. Then of course
stop breeding the adults who this puppy came from and inform any
other's who purchased puppies from these adults. I am not a breeder, far
from it but to me it's the right thing to do in this case.

magicgenie · 03-11-2009, 05:27 AM

At the risk of getting flamed big time, I have to say that personal experience has taught me that a health guarantee that says "you get a refund and keep the puppy" is an invitation to be abused. My written guarantee now says "return the puppy for a refund," but I always explain further that if a client comes to me with a good set of medical records from a known and respected veterinary practice I will likely just return their money and let them keep the puppy. "Return puppy for a refund" also give the client a way out if facing a devastatingly emotional and/or expensive illness. I have the money and connections to get the best care for a sick puppy, so there would never be a question of putting it down. Anyone can PM me and I will tell the story of how I came to this decision. I am not even averse to naming names of the people who drove me to it. An experience like this sears itself on your soul.

TLC · 03-11-2009, 05:54 AM

...honestly, I still believe that you should be refunded the cost of the puppy to put towards his HUGE medical bills. $1000 is a great help towards that bill.

From the health guarantee "IF" you were to return the pup to the breeder, she would have to pay over and above that $1000 to save his life

So I am so blown away at the fact that she wouldn't refund you so that you can help save his life and continue to provide a wonderful forever home. This is really a very unfair situation....

EVERYDAY I see here on YT a New Pup with LS and/or MVD and it's heartbreaking for both that dog and their owners, and I know first hand as I am one of them too!

LS and MVD pups don't get 'cured' over night, even with Joey's surgery, he is going to have to have on going medical care and special home care for the rest of his life. It takes a special, consistent and precise person and route to care for these dogs all in the 'hope' that they can survive this genetic disease and 'hopefully' live a long life.

....prayers for Joey...

mkawczak · 03-11-2009, 05:58 AM

I'm always learing daily on this site. I thought,as many do ,a health written guarantee is a binding contract. But it's only as good a the paper it's written on. Think about all the extended warranty offers we're told about daily. The truth lies with each individual. Money can be the root of all evil,and now a days,there is alot of expectations not being met. Breeding is suppose to be a job that is loved. A business. A joy. Some breeders only do it for money and that's it. Most should at the very least have a work ethic, and love for their breed and all whom come through their lives. I know that any dog,no matter what the bloodline is,has the chance of an illness. It has to start somewhere. My family has never had any history of cancer,yet 3 years ago, my now 52 year old uncle found out he has liver and lung cancer. Non drinker and smoker,and 1 of 9 healthy kids. All I'm saying is...to all involved, this situation is unfortunate. I wish you both the best. Let this be a lesson learned for all of us. Thank you for sharring this personal expierience and I hope it reached the hearts and mnds of all others out there. Joey...Aiden and I will pray for you today ,tomarrow and wish youa healthy, long life my furry friend.

TinyBit · 03-11-2009, 06:06 AM

I just wanted to say that I'll be praying for everyone involved.
Little Joey, Donna and Linda.
My heart goes out to you.

magicgenie · 03-11-2009, 06:12 AM

I'm not a daily YT follower, so have had to do a quick scan of posts related to Joey's problem, and what I'm coming up with is something fishy going on here. Does anyone else reading this stuff feel this is a rush job getting into surgery on flimsy evidence? No paired bile acids, and claiming they see a shunt vessel on ultrasound??? They're cutting up this puppy today? Do you really think they'll come back and say "oops, no shunt" if they don't find one? Did you get a second opinion on something this big??? I feel bad for the breeder.

TLC · 03-11-2009, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magicgenie

I'm not a daily YT follower, so have had to do a quick scan of posts related to Joey's problem, and what I'm coming up with is something fishy going on here. Does anyone else reading this stuff feel this is a rush job getting into surgery on flimsy evidence? No paired bile acids, and claiming they see a shunt vessel on ultrasound??? They're cutting up this puppy today? Do you really think they'll come back and say "oops, no shunt" if they don't find one? Did you get a second opinion on something this big??? I feel bad for the breeder.

I am pretty up to date on Joey and NO I don't feel there is anything fishy going on....Not only does he have a high post BAT, his Protein C test is pretty much border line with an LS reading. The hospital he is going to is a Specialty hospital in the Tri-Stat area, so it isn't a random place just guessing at things....

It would be wonderful if Joey didn't have a shunt or MVD, as then he wouldn't have to endure what he will have to endure for his entire life

MyFairLacy · 03-11-2009, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magicgenie

I'm not a daily YT follower, so have had to do a quick scan of posts related to Joey's problem, and what I'm coming up with is something fishy going on here. Does anyone else reading this stuff feel this is a rush job getting into surgery on flimsy evidence? No paired bile acids, and claiming they see a shunt vessel on ultrasound??? They're cutting up this puppy today? Do you really think they'll come back and say "oops, no shunt" if they don't find one? Did you get a second opinion on something this big??? I feel bad for the breeder.

No I don't think anything fishy is going on. You know, this is not what they need while undergoing surgery today. A shunt was seen on ultrasound. If there is going to be an inaccuracy with ultrasound it would be that a shunt isn't seen when there us in fact one, not usually the other way around. They are lucky they caught this before be started having symptoms. I really hope his sugery goes well today and he recovers well. And I hope his breeder does the right thing and proves that she is a good breeder

03-10-2009, 11:08 PM	#33
chattiesmom Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Alabama Posts: 17,674	I cannot begin to imagine the pain that you are experiencing. It is heart breaking to hear that yet another Yorkie is suffering from Liver Shunt. Hugs to you and I'll keep little Joey in my thoughts and prayers as he undergoes his LS surgery. __________________ Silk Step-In Harnesses www.foxypups.etsy.com

03-10-2009, 11:13 PM	#34
lksdolls YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Northeast Ohio Posts: 1,105	I am going to sign off. I'm exhausted both physically and mentally. If I were one of "those" breeders that has been suggested, do you think I'd be posting my name here or should I have just slipped away into the night never to be heard from again. Good night all. And a special thanks to all those who have sent me supporting PM's. Hugs back at you! Say an extra prayer tonight for my little Joey. __________________ Linda and her Baker's Dozen, RIP my angels Reggie & Bo

03-11-2009, 04:42 AM	#37
drabinowitz43 YT Addict Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: New York Posts: 490	First, let me set the record straight by saying Linda is absolutely right about what her health guarantee said and I just didn't pay careful attention to what I was reading, which is not too bright, but buying a puppy is an emotional, not a business decision on a pet buyer's part, and I fell in love with Joey's picture. I want to add that I too felt a connection to Linda, had checked her references, and had nothing but good feelings about the whole transaction. When Joey's initial bloodwork came back abnormal, we did speak, and Linda said she had no history of liver problems with her dogs, had not heard of MVD (which I thought Joey might've had at the time), it was left at that. I think I was surprised that there was no follow-up regarding the other dogs and I saw other people on YT thinking about getting one of Linda's pups after their own pet store puppy tragically died, and I kept my mouth shut because the last thing I want to do is hurt someone's livelihood and spread drama. But I was upset and I did think about these people often because this was at the same time Linda and I spoke about Joey's initial bloodwork. I could've pm'd them and I didn't and that's my fault. I started emailing Linda almost a week ago and I think I sent a total of four emails, but only placed one call, and that's also my fault. I just hate asking for money, I am not a haggler, but the medical costs are staggering and I was so upset about Joey being ill and not having the funds for the surgery. When Linda did not respond to my emails, I began getting more upset, and I only went on this forum because I needed validation that the breeder should take some responsibility for this and I needed emotional support. There is no legal obligation, but I needed more support and communication and I thought I would get it here, and I did, and it has been a saving grace. I am sorry that I didn't speak to Linda directly before she read these posts. A lot of the comments are now being taken out of context, for example I am not suggesting that the breeder would put down her dog, the opposite is true. I was so surprised not to have heard from Linda that I could not imagine why she would rather take back a sick pup that needs thousands of dollars of treatment, diet,etc. over his lifetime than make a gesture of any kind of help to me. Many other comments that are being quoted are also out of context, that is just inherent when we email rather than speak to people. Linda, I will email you, but please do not feel that you ever have to defend yourself, I think the lack of communication at this trying time led to a lot of what ensued. Most of us are going through trying times in this economy and I think this latest just put me over the top. I want to add that Joey is the most phenomenal puppy I have ever met and I sit here crying right now as he is in surgery. He may have a defective liver, but the rest of his gene pool is quite wonderful, and I am so sorry for any pain I may have caused you. With that being said, I will now sign off and try to go to work, but it is going to be a tough day, please keep us in your thoughts and prayers. Thanks. __________________ Donna, Sadie, Joey and Nicky (and Buddy the cockatiel)

03-11-2009, 05:27 AM	#39
magicgenie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England Posts: 819	I hate to speak up, but--- At the risk of getting flamed big time, I have to say that personal experience has taught me that a health guarantee that says "you get a refund and keep the puppy" is an invitation to be abused. My written guarantee now says "return the puppy for a refund," but I always explain further that if a client comes to me with a good set of medical records from a known and respected veterinary practice I will likely just return their money and let them keep the puppy. "Return puppy for a refund" also give the client a way out if facing a devastatingly emotional and/or expensive illness. I have the money and connections to get the best care for a sick puppy, so there would never be a question of putting it down. Anyone can PM me and I will tell the story of how I came to this decision. I am not even averse to naming names of the people who drove me to it. An experience like this sears itself on your soul.

03-11-2009, 05:54 AM	#40
TLC Slave to My Rug-Rats Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Long Island Posts: 7,247	...honestly, I still believe that you should be refunded the cost of the puppy to put towards his HUGE medical bills. $1000 is a great help towards that bill. From the health guarantee "IF" you were to return the pup to the breeder, she would have to pay over and above that $1000 to save his life So I am so blown away at the fact that she wouldn't refund you so that you can help save his life and continue to provide a wonderful forever home. This is really a very unfair situation.... EVERYDAY I see here on YT a New Pup with LS and/or MVD and it's heartbreaking for both that dog and their owners, and I know first hand as I am one of them too! LS and MVD pups don't get 'cured' over night, even with Joey's surgery, he is going to have to have on going medical care and special home care for the rest of his life. It takes a special, consistent and precise person and route to care for these dogs all in the 'hope' that they can survive this genetic disease and 'hopefully' live a long life. ....prayers for Joey... __________________ Adopt Donate Foster www.yorkie911rescue.com

03-10-2009, 11:57 PM	#36
Breeze Puppy Luv Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 2,678	I have to say I'm so sorry to hear about Joey and his livershunt and wish him and his family all the best. I'm sure Linda is very upset as well, as a matter of fact I know she is heartbroken. I also think that both the buyer and the breeder must both stick to the purchase agreement regarding the sale of the puppy. If anyone buying the puppy does not agree to the terms the breeder has than please do not buy a puppy from them. I think many buyers see a cute puppy and never think to look at the small print till it's too late. I have looked at many breeders health guarantees and feel Linda's is more than fair. Even my last puppy I recently purchased has all champion lines both CKC (Can) and AKC champs in every line (incuding parents and grandparents...) and my puppie's health guarantee does not include vet bills at all, period. Just another puppy if my dog dies or needs to be euthanized within 2 years of date of sale due to hereditary illnesses. I feel Linda is being more than fair and caring, the OP agreed to the terms of the agreement. I'm so sorry the OP is going through this and I wish the best for Joey, the Op and Linda. Linda's family is going through hard times now as well, I hope she does not mind me saying this. But I know she will do the very best she can for Joey and the OP.

03-11-2009, 05:13 AM	#38
ARCHIE No Longer A Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: NEW YORK Posts: 16,218	Prayer's coming for little Joey today, Donna. I hope and pray he is as good as new after his surgery this am. It's sad to read stories like this. You think your getting a healthy puppy, fall in love with that puppy and then whammy you have a very sick little guy who needs surgery to survive and lot's of $$$$ to make this happen. Buying from a repitable breeder is suppose to protect you from this, right? If this is the very first time this has happened in this breeder's line than I think she would be more than willing to pitch in and help with the financial cost to help this puppy survive and not worry so much about the original contract. To me that would be what a responsible breeder would do under these circumstances if she indeed really cared about that puppy. Then of course stop breeding the adults who this puppy came from and inform any other's who purchased puppies from these adults. I am not a breeder, far from it but to me it's the right thing to do in this case.

03-11-2009, 05:58 AM	#41
mkawczak Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 3	Hugs to all involved I'm always learing daily on this site. I thought,as many do ,a health written guarantee is a binding contract. But it's only as good a the paper it's written on. Think about all the extended warranty offers we're told about daily. The truth lies with each individual. Money can be the root of all evil,and now a days,there is alot of expectations not being met. Breeding is suppose to be a job that is loved. A business. A joy. Some breeders only do it for money and that's it. Most should at the very least have a work ethic, and love for their breed and all whom come through their lives. I know that any dog,no matter what the bloodline is,has the chance of an illness. It has to start somewhere. My family has never had any history of cancer,yet 3 years ago, my now 52 year old uncle found out he has liver and lung cancer. Non drinker and smoker,and 1 of 9 healthy kids. All I'm saying is...to all involved, this situation is unfortunate. I wish you both the best. Let this be a lesson learned for all of us. Thank you for sharring this personal expierience and I hope it reached the hearts and mnds of all others out there. Joey...Aiden and I will pray for you today ,tomarrow and wish youa healthy, long life my furry friend. __________________ N.Y. 'S FINESTPONGO,AIDEN,HARLEY, KI-KI ,GARFIELD ,MINI-ME

03-11-2009, 06:06 AM	#42
TinyBit It's a Yorkie Thing Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Walton KS Posts: 1,529 Blog Entries: 1	I just wanted to say that I'll be praying for everyone involved. Little Joey, Donna and Linda. My heart goes out to you. __________________ Loving Gizmo, Teddy, Duchess,and Faith : In Memory of My Duke of York 7-24-06 ~6-21-07 and Victorian Lacie Pearl 3-1-07 ~ 4-22-11

03-11-2009, 06:12 AM	#43
magicgenie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England Posts: 819	Yikes yikes I'm not a daily YT follower, so have had to do a quick scan of posts related to Joey's problem, and what I'm coming up with is something fishy going on here. Does anyone else reading this stuff feel this is a rush job getting into surgery on flimsy evidence? No paired bile acids, and claiming they see a shunt vessel on ultrasound??? They're cutting up this puppy today? Do you really think they'll come back and say "oops, no shunt" if they don't find one? Did you get a second opinion on something this big??? I feel bad for the breeder.