I Am Thinking Of Breeding - Page 3 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

sgraff · 08-14-2005, 05:59 AM

The fact that neither of cocos parents have an underbite and she was the only one in the litter that had one leads me to believe it was just a "freak accident".

The underbite probably came from the "grandparents". I would not breed this dog either. She could pass it on to the litter. Yes, it probably doesn't look bad and some may think it is cute. But, if eating and drinking is a problem, that is heartbreaking. You pass the puppies on to new owners that don't realize there will be a problem and they have to find out later and deal with it. Every time I hear of people having to deal with problems, taking their pets to the vet and putting out all this money for something that could have been prevented by the breeder, it just burns my a**. I've been there.

Snow Yorkies · 08-14-2005, 06:08 AM

I can't speak for other breeder only for myself- but with the dedication to this breed - any pup that would have a under bite would never leave my home with out a s/n contract and I would determine who was throwing this trait my dam or sire and they would be s/n as well- this is such a in justice- then why not breed anything???? to what ever???? To me this is just bad breeding???? Why do the rest of us breeders go through pain staking and costly experience to bring out the best breed yorkies we can while others have no dedication. It is not whether it is someones preference it is what is best for the breed and there should be no question on what to do in this case. Then why not breed bad patella's or liver shunt, cotton coats and the list can go on, to me it is all the same. All of this is unexceptable. If you want to breed, breed with knowledge of the standard. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings here, that isn't my intentions at all. Don't ever settle for breeding pet quality, even if you aren't breeding for show quality at least breed to the standard.

YorkieRose · 08-14-2005, 06:18 AM

It is not a freak thing, it is a recessive thing. Recessive genes can skip generations and will show up when bred to another dog who is also recessive for that gene. If you breed your girl, look for a male without the recessive gene.

We had a thread recently and the posted had photo's of the dogs bite..it was not good and she asked for opinions..that is what I meant by a photo..

This is a good lesson for breeders who place pets and want them to stay pets..I give no papers until the pup is spayed/neutered if places for a pet. A simple solution for me.

People point out some breeds such as the Bull Dog that have natural undershot jaws..but they have large strong teeth that do not fall out as a result of the poor bite..tooth loss is the most common bad bite consequence. Yorkies are so prone to early tooth loss..compounding it with a bad bite is a double wammy for them.

Yorkiegold...yes, yes, yes, ...a bad topline is the worst for me. If you can not balance a teacup/saucer on the back for get it! LOL

txshopper73 · 08-14-2005, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

since our Yorkies all have faults in the bloodlines.

This is in agreement with Pat but something for everyone to think about. Don't all yorkies have the same ancestors? Therefore, if all yorkies have the same ancestors and the same lines then all yorkies carry faults in their bloodlines. No one can fully eliminate all bad, recessive traits from the lines. They originated with these faults. We can try and try hard but somewhere generations back, they faults can be found. To me, this explains why for years, 2 perfect yorkies that have had successful pups will suddenly throw a bad pup. JMHO

YorkieRose · 08-14-2005, 07:56 AM

This is true up to a point. Many breeders have bred away from these types of faults through selective breeding. Of course, when you breed out to eliminate one fault you can also open the line up to new faults you did not have.
Some breeders stick to a select few lines and once establishing a foundation they pretty much stay with breeders who have good bites..but nothing is 100%.
How often the bad bite shows up would be important to me also..one pup in 20 or one in 3..big difference.

We have several members who have been able to get a a nice pup from a show breeder due to the bite being off a bit.

How many have seen a true undershot/overshot jaw..they are so different then a slight underbite...I would spay a bitch who had even one severe bite problem...but not a slight underbite...anyway, so many bites under correct..over rarely correct, they get worse as the adult teeth come in..opposite with under.
I do not know the age of the Yorkie we are discussing.

Olivier · 08-14-2005, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolftrap

I was thinking of breeding my coco but I have a question. She is is PERFECT health and has good lineage but she has an underbite. Some have told me that this makes her not able to breed. That because of her underbite this is a defect and she shouldn't be bred. I just wanted to ask about this because I am puzzled as to why her teeth would have anything to do with the health of her puppies

She is very healthy and was the only pup in her litter with the underbite.

How old is Coco ? Do you have a picture of her ?

bkessler · 08-14-2005, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolftrap

I was thinking of breeding my coco but I have a question. She is is PERFECT health and has good lineage but she has an underbite. Some have told me that this makes her not able to breed. That because of her underbite this is a defect and she shouldn't be bred. I just wanted to ask about this because I am puzzled as to why her teeth would have anything to do with the health of her puppies

She is very healthy and was the only pup in her litter with the underbite.

I just have a question.. Do you have experience breeding?? If not, why do you want to breed her?? People are telling me I should breed Lily Mae because of her temperment and personality but i feel since I have no experience breeding and because I want to keep her as my family pet, i said no way... I just think the risks are way too high... i hope I am not offending you, I just was courious to know why you would want to breed your baby.. If you decide to do it, please do plenty of reseach and really make sure you know what you are doing, as i would not want you to lose your baby

feminvstr · 08-14-2005, 08:40 AM

subtracting genetic problems, the three t's are an absolute MUST in my breeding program...

Topline
Teeth
Temperment

all other faults can easily be corrected in ones breeding program the above can not!!! IMHO

lily · 08-14-2005, 08:57 AM

A lady gave me a dog with it had had a broken jaw andI asked my mentor if she could tell if he had a ubderbite even seen he had abrokenjaw and she said most of the time! She said he had a underbite! the vet said he had a underbite! So I gave him away! No breeding!Mentor said it takes a long time to breed that out if ever! This boy had been use for breeding! So please think about breeding her! lily

SoCalyorkiLvr · 08-14-2005, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivier

Without offending no one . When someone have his or her mind set on breeding , there is no much that another one can do .

As my mentor told me once " There are several Yorkies in this world but it is rare to find real quality ones " .

Ahhh, yes.... and I would add...."Quality is in the eye of the beholder".

Who doesn't think their yorkie is "real quality"?

SoCalyorkiLvr · 08-14-2005, 09:52 AM

When I was searchihg for Ava I found a show breeder who was selling a puppy with an underbite. She told me it was "slight". Before I drove quite a distance to see the pup, I called several vets to see what their opinion were on underbites in small breeds and I asked several other breeders and they all said a "slight" overbite" does not affect quality of life and they can eat just fine and all. A "severe" underbite however can be a very serious problem. I also researched on the internet.

It broke my heart when I went to see this puppy because I had my heart set on her from her pictures but when I opened her mouth, the underbite was very noticeable and the breeder said "it had gotten worse" so needless to say, I did not get the puppy. She did sell the puppy for $2400 to someone else.

I would say if the underbite is so severe as to be "life altering" then I would not breed her, but if it is as "slight" as you say and you can find a male without the recessive gene, and you are producing purely pet quality yorkies, and she is "perfect" in all other areas, then I think it would not be irresponsible to breed her if you have a mentor and a good vet. JMHO

feminvstr · 08-14-2005, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I would say if the underbite is so severe as to be "life altering" then I would not breed her, but if it is as "slight" as you say and you can find a male without the recessive gene, and you are producing purely pet quality yorkies, and she is "perfect" in all other areas, then I think it would not be irresponsible to breed her if you have a mentor and a good vet. JMHO

why breed a fault ??? slight or not it is still a fault that can become more pronounce!

feminvstr · 08-14-2005, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Are you saying I am not qualified to have an opinion after the research and experience I do have?

You think it's okay to feed chocolate to yorkies so I respect your years of experience but we all do our research differently.

Kim never said you shouldnt have an opinion but to promote someone to intentionally breed a fault is NOT good advice!

SoCalyorkiLvr · 08-14-2005, 10:33 AM

All dogs have "faults". There is no "perfect dog".

I do not consider yorkies a "hobby". These are my furbabies!

I refuse to get into the "Chocolate debate" with you again but just so everyone knows, chocolate in any amount is harmful to yorkies.

I do not feel a need to defend my ability to practice law to you, except to say that I am well respected in the legal community.

txshopper73 · 08-14-2005, 02:36 PM

as far as the chocolate chip thing, I think that admin said it very well..

"While small amounts of chocolate most likely will not kill your Yorkie, giving your Yorkie any chocolate is an unnecessary risk in our opinion. If your Yorkie shows any odd signs or behavior, take your Yorkie to the vet immediately. For peace of mind, you may also take them to the vet anyways or call your vet if they ingest any. YorkieTalk would never condone giving a Yorkie (or any dog) chocolate, but that decision is ultimately up to you and you may choose to do what you wish with your pet."

But, like I stated before, I would not breed a bitch with a bad bite, or bad back, or bad tempermant.

08-14-2005, 05:59 AM	#31
sgraff Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bismarck, ND Posts: 102	The fact that neither of cocos parents have an underbite and she was the only one in the litter that had one leads me to believe it was just a "freak accident". The underbite probably came from the "grandparents". I would not breed this dog either. She could pass it on to the litter. Yes, it probably doesn't look bad and some may think it is cute. But, if eating and drinking is a problem, that is heartbreaking. You pass the puppies on to new owners that don't realize there will be a problem and they have to find out later and deal with it. Every time I hear of people having to deal with problems, taking their pets to the vet and putting out all this money for something that could have been prevented by the breeder, it just burns my a**. I've been there. __________________ Sheila Mom to Sugar Babie, Lee and Gina "Dogs are not our whole lives, but they make our lives whole"

08-14-2005, 06:08 AM	#32
Snow Yorkies Biewer Passionate Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Southern AL Posts: 1,684	Bad Teeth I can't speak for other breeder only for myself- but with the dedication to this breed - any pup that would have a under bite would never leave my home with out a s/n contract and I would determine who was throwing this trait my dam or sire and they would be s/n as well- this is such a in justice- then why not breed anything???? to what ever???? To me this is just bad breeding???? Why do the rest of us breeders go through pain staking and costly experience to bring out the best breed yorkies we can while others have no dedication. It is not whether it is someones preference it is what is best for the breed and there should be no question on what to do in this case. Then why not breed bad patella's or liver shunt, cotton coats and the list can go on, to me it is all the same. All of this is unexceptable. If you want to breed, breed with knowledge of the standard. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings here, that isn't my intentions at all. Don't ever settle for breeding pet quality, even if you aren't breeding for show quality at least breed to the standard. __________________ Dare to Dream Biewers Charter Member of BAPPC

08-14-2005, 06:18 AM	#33
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	bite It is not a freak thing, it is a recessive thing. Recessive genes can skip generations and will show up when bred to another dog who is also recessive for that gene. If you breed your girl, look for a male without the recessive gene. We had a thread recently and the posted had photo's of the dogs bite..it was not good and she asked for opinions..that is what I meant by a photo.. This is a good lesson for breeders who place pets and want them to stay pets..I give no papers until the pup is spayed/neutered if places for a pet. A simple solution for me. People point out some breeds such as the Bull Dog that have natural undershot jaws..but they have large strong teeth that do not fall out as a result of the poor bite..tooth loss is the most common bad bite consequence. Yorkies are so prone to early tooth loss..compounding it with a bad bite is a double wammy for them. Yorkiegold...yes, yes, yes, ...a bad topline is the worst for me. If you can not balance a teacup/saucer on the back for get it! LOL

08-14-2005, 07:56 AM	#35
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	true This is true up to a point. Many breeders have bred away from these types of faults through selective breeding. Of course, when you breed out to eliminate one fault you can also open the line up to new faults you did not have. Some breeders stick to a select few lines and once establishing a foundation they pretty much stay with breeders who have good bites..but nothing is 100%. How often the bad bite shows up would be important to me also..one pup in 20 or one in 3..big difference. We have several members who have been able to get a a nice pup from a show breeder due to the bite being off a bit. How many have seen a true undershot/overshot jaw..they are so different then a slight underbite...I would spay a bitch who had even one severe bite problem...but not a slight underbite...anyway, so many bites under correct..over rarely correct, they get worse as the adult teeth come in..opposite with under. I do not know the age of the Yorkie we are discussing.

08-14-2005, 08:40 AM	#38
feminvstr Donating YT 4000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 4,405	subtracting genetic problems, the three t's are an absolute MUST in my breeding program... Topline Teeth Temperment all other faults can easily be corrected in ones breeding program the above can not!!! IMHO __________________ Kimberly

08-14-2005, 08:57 AM	#39
lily YT Addict Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: paris crossing,indiana Posts: 377	A lady gave me a dog with it had had a broken jaw andI asked my mentor if she could tell if he had a ubderbite even seen he had abrokenjaw and she said most of the time! She said he had a underbite! the vet said he had a underbite! So I gave him away! No breeding!Mentor said it takes a long time to breed that out if ever! This boy had been use for breeding! So please think about breeding her! lily

08-14-2005, 09:52 AM	#41
SoCalyorkiLvr BANNED! Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 8,246	When I was searchihg for Ava I found a show breeder who was selling a puppy with an underbite. She told me it was "slight". Before I drove quite a distance to see the pup, I called several vets to see what their opinion were on underbites in small breeds and I asked several other breeders and they all said a "slight" overbite" does not affect quality of life and they can eat just fine and all. A "severe" underbite however can be a very serious problem. I also researched on the internet. It broke my heart when I went to see this puppy because I had my heart set on her from her pictures but when I opened her mouth, the underbite was very noticeable and the breeder said "it had gotten worse" so needless to say, I did not get the puppy. She did sell the puppy for $2400 to someone else. I would say if the underbite is so severe as to be "life altering" then I would not breed her, but if it is as "slight" as you say and you can find a male without the recessive gene, and you are producing purely pet quality yorkies, and she is "perfect" in all other areas, then I think it would not be irresponsible to breed her if you have a mentor and a good vet. JMHO

08-14-2005, 10:33 AM	#44
SoCalyorkiLvr BANNED! Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 8,246	All dogs have "faults". There is no "perfect dog". I do not consider yorkies a "hobby". These are my furbabies! I refuse to get into the "Chocolate debate" with you again but just so everyone knows, chocolate in any amount is harmful to yorkies. I do not feel a need to defend my ability to practice law to you, except to say that I am well respected in the legal community. Last edited by SoCalyorkiLvr; 08-14-2005 at 10:36 AM.

08-14-2005, 02:36 PM	#45
txshopper73 Donating YT 14K Club Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 14,226 Blog Entries: 1	as far as the chocolate chip thing, I think that admin said it very well.. "While small amounts of chocolate most likely will not kill your Yorkie, giving your Yorkie any chocolate is an unnecessary risk in our opinion. If your Yorkie shows any odd signs or behavior, take your Yorkie to the vet immediately. For peace of mind, you may also take them to the vet anyways or call your vet if they ingest any. YorkieTalk would never condone giving a Yorkie (or any dog) chocolate, but that decision is ultimately up to you and you may choose to do what you wish with your pet." But, like I stated before, I would not breed a bitch with a bad bite, or bad back, or bad tempermant. __________________ As always...JMO (Just My Opinion) Kimberley