Health Screening

[Ladymom]

This letter from the YTCA foundation about Dr. Center's AKC grant proposal also contains the recommendation to get a bile acids test done on all puppies before they go to their new home. It's in the closing paragraph:

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

I believe Dr. Center is scheduled to lecture at the 2008 specialty. That may clear up some of the confusion over the BAT test.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by bjh

This is great information but still confusing to me about the testing. I have been told that you should do a blood panel on your puppies at 12 weeks and if it shows any abnormalities then do a bile acid test.....is this wrong?

When you get the LP's checked on puppies or adults are the vets doing x-ray or just feeling of the knee?

In the case of a shunt, the liver would have to be about 70% damaged (don't have a reference...sorry) to have a raised ALT, so a blood panel is inconclusive.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

There are many methods in identifying LS.....Blood tests will identify various initial problems, alerting the Vet to conduct further tests. I know that when I have my pups puppy teeth extracted (usually about 5 months), I always request a blood panel....(holding my breath that abnormalities don't show up)

On puppies false readings can occur on Bile Acids due to a multitude of reasons, but mostly food....Royal Canin food can produce a false reading.

One must remember that pups do have lose knees during their growth period. Initial checking for LP is done manually....experienced vets can identify the grade....but, x-rays can better identify the problem in detail. One must remember LP can be produced by injury (allowing our pets to jump up and down) as well as genetically. LP is a problem that has existed in toy dogs due to their skeletal structure. Breeders are more cognisant of the problem and breeding more selectively to breed LP out. OFA testing is recommended at the age of 2.

Royal Canin can make them go up? Interesting...

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by bjh

I have also heard that vaccinations can cause false readings on the blood work. What are your thoughts on that....true or false?

Just about any med could cause falsely elevated bile acids. Ellie's specialist says the more they learn, the more they don't know...

[Mom2BabyNatalie]

While I don't currently breed/raise Yorkies... I am working on my program at this time and intend to begin this year...

I have raised good, solid, healthy pups in the past - since 1990 - mainly the Basset Hound and Havanese breeds.

Preparing a program centered around the Yorkie breed - has been an indepth and time consuming endeavor as there are just so many "alternatives", so much controversy and "hype" surrounding the breed... as well as the genetic predispositions within the Yorkshire Terrier breed... but I am well on my way.

I feel that it is unethical to breed dogs at all - of ANY breed - that are not properly health tested to be certain that they do not carry or already exhibit the many breed specific disorders that can so easily be passed on throughout the line.

In the Yorkie breed in particular, you would want to be certain your new pup's parents have been age appropriate vet tested... OFA tested for Luxating patellas, CERF (tested and certified free of heritable eye disease ), and the Bile Acids test for Portosystemic shunt - Complete blood panels may then determine the need for further testing of the parents with regard to STD's, etc prior to breeding.

I feel as well, that DNA testing of the parents is important to assure the line integrity .... you just never know these days, if the dog you get is really the dog you THINK you're getting... especially when purchasing from various parts of the country / world.... when it is impossible to "really know" your breeders...

I am also considering having my breeding parents "Chromagene" color tested.... perhaps even Chromagene coat length tested.... for further information as to the adult coat color and length my pups will have as adults.

I'd have loved to have had this information when purchasing my kids!! Sort of a "genetic glimpse into the future!"... not nearly as important as health certification of course, but I think it would be a nice asset to have in being able to provide potential puppy owners such a wealth of information! Especially within the Yorkshire Terrier breed where all young pups exhibit the same essential "look" with respect to color and coat length... yet experience SO many changes as they grow!

You can read more about those services here:

http://www.vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html

As for testing of the pups before going to new homes.... probably not... even at the age of 12 weeks, so many results are inconclusive... with good solid parental health - testing of puppies prior to being placed at (or around) 12 weeks of age does not seem beneficial. JMO

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Royal Canin can make them go up? Interesting...

Eukanuba can too. In fact any kind of puppy food can.

[mypreciouspups]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

LP is just so common in the yorkie breed it's really hard to determine if it's genetic or caused by injury...if it shows up early in a puppy then it would in my opinion be genetic but in an older dog past 1 or 2 it really could be from a slight injury as just running in the yard and injuring themselves and you wouldn't even know it....it's just so common in toy dogs....hard to determine on LP unless it shows up early...

I do agree with this. I have a yorkie, nuertered, that has LP. He was fine when we got him, my BIL was just stupid while I was out shopping with my sister and had him running up and down their deck stairs.. the rises were to high for him, he was only 1.9 pounds at the time.. apparently they did this all afternoon.. I was mad and I told him the why's.. I had already told him to leave him be in two 3x5 cages put together on the ends so he has room for one side to sleep and play, the other was a pp pad and water..Needless to say I to believe that too many people think it is cute for their little yorkie to jump up and stand on their hind legs. I know a girl that has to show me every time he little 3.5 pound yorkie is outside and jumps high enough for her to see her in the screen/glass area of her door.. every time I tell her the same time.. does not help.. but people do not realized these little guys are fragile.
Although I do think it can certainly be genetic.. kacee got this at like 5/6 months old, it would not have been the breeders fault. and she had not had any of these problems with any other puppy.. I still keep in touch with her to this day.
I take my puppies to the vet, have all shots kept updated, keep them as healthy as possible.. If my vet says a puppy is to young to do bile acid testing, then I will wait as you never breed a young puppy anyway. I do not test my puppies, I have had 7 and had a problem with my little gracie, and it came from dad, so he is now with my friend as a pet only. I will not breed a yorkie, if I know there is anything genetically wrong with one or the other.. I would not sell a sick puppy. I also have my puppies shots and first worming done at the vets. I then get wormer to take home for me to do after that. but all needles I believe should be done with a vet, not a breeder. I also got stung with a yorkie, that at 6 months I was told had all shots, (by breeder) other then rabies.. two months later she got parvo, the breeder called me an idiot. She was/is a huge show breeder in Canada..
I have so far kept in touch with all my babies new parents.. one comes to visit me in the winter every couple days, plays with all my guys and leave.
I would not breed a yorkie that has any huge personality problems, they have to be fun loving, outgoing, liking people and other dogs.. ( I do watch them too much) I do not take my dogs into a pet store.
I do not let my puppies go until they are 12 weeks, although I have when the person was around the corner and came over daily.. I have also allowed puppy to go daily with new parents once. In the agreement that the dog is not put down on any strange ground.. and I make sure new owners are so aware of parvo and the effects of wanting to take puppies for a walk too early. Amazing how many people have no clue about parvo,, even though they have had other dogs..
I do not use my stud dog as a stud to anyone.
Most of all, I try to have my babies in cages at night prior to leaving, I have them very socialized and not afraid to be picked up and get to go outside in my back yard once they have had a first parvo shot. I am a little to protective with the baby's.. not wanting people to just want to come and see. too much to worry about.
All my dogs get blood work done on them. So far I have had great luck with my baby's and the new parents. all my dogs must be spayed or neutered. I always have to call me when it is done. I have not sold any of my baby's for breeding.
Hope I did not leave anything out.

[Mom2BabyNatalie]

Originally Posted by mypreciouspups

I do agree with this. I have a yorkie, nuertered, that has LP. He was fine when we got him, my BIL was just stupid while I was out shopping with my sister and had him running up and down their deck stairs.. the rises were to high for him, he was only 1.9 pounds at the time.. apparently they did this all afternoon.. I was mad and I told him the why's.. I had already told him to leave him be in two 3x5 cages put together on the ends so he has room for one side to sleep and play, the other was a pp pad and water..Needless to say I to believe that too many people think it is cute for their little yorkie to jump up and stand on their hind legs. I know a girl that has to show me every time he little 3.5 pound yorkie is outside and jumps high enough for her to see her in the screen/glass area of her door.. every time I tell her the same time.. does not help.. but people do not realized these little guys are fragile.
Although I do think it can certainly be genetic.. kacee got this at like 5/6 months old, it would not have been the breeders fault. and she had not had any of these problems with any other puppy.. I still keep in touch with her to this day.
I take my puppies to the vet, have all shots kept updated, keep them as healthy as possible.. If my vet says a puppy is to young to do bile acid testing, then I will wait as you never breed a young puppy anyway. I do not test my puppies, I have had 7 and had a problem with my little gracie, and it came from dad, so he is now with my friend as a pet only. I will not breed a yorkie, if I know there is anything genetically wrong with one or the other.. I would not sell a sick puppy. I also have my puppies shots and first worming done at the vets. I then get wormer to take home for me to do after that. but all needles I believe should be done with a vet, not a breeder. I also got stung with a yorkie, that at 6 months I was told had all shots, (by breeder) other then rabies.. two months later she got parvo, the breeder called me an idiot. She was/is a huge show breeder in Canada..
I have so far kept in touch with all my babies new parents.. one comes to visit me in the winter every couple days, plays with all my guys and leave.
I would not breed a yorkie that has any huge personality problems, they have to be fun loving, outgoing, liking people and other dogs.. ( I do watch them too much) I do not take my dogs into a pet store.
I do not let my puppies go until they are 12 weeks, although I have when the person was around the corner and came over daily.. I have also allowed puppy to go daily with new parents once. In the agreement that the dog is not put down on any strange ground.. and I make sure new owners are so aware of parvo and the effects of wanting to take puppies for a walk too early. Amazing how many people have no clue about parvo,, even though they have had other dogs..
I do not use my stud dog as a stud to anyone.
Most of all, I try to have my babies in cages at night prior to leaving, I have them very socialized and not afraid to be picked up and get to go outside in my back yard once they have had a first parvo shot. I am a little to protective with the baby's.. not wanting people to just want to come and see. too much to worry about.
All my dogs get blood work done on them. So far I have had great luck with my baby's and the new parents. all my dogs must be spayed or neutered. I always have to call me when it is done. I have not sold any of my baby's for breeding.
Hope I did not leave anything out.

I agree with most of this.... except I've always given my own vaccinations and worming... I think many breeders do... I always attach the batch number label to the vaccination record so that the new vet will know what the pup has been given...

I think you bring up a good point though, about people coming and going around your dogs / puppies.

So many people complain about breeders not welcoming them into their homes with open arms... of course, it's natural to want to come see the parents and family of the pup you want to make a part of your world... see how they interact, how they are "kept" / cared for... their living environment....

But with all the nasty things out there that new pups can be exposed to - before ever having built up an immunity .... even the parents of the pups, can be exposed to disease and bring it back to the litter.... heck, even WE can, for that matter....

Personally, I prefer to limit as much as possible, any outside elements... and I've never "been okay" with allowing people into my home to "meet the parents"....

Some folks will allow it.... some will have visitors wear booties/masks/sterile gowns, etc.... but I don't care to take the risk.... way too much to lose.

[mypreciouspups]

I will look into this further about bile acid testing on the puppies, my vet says no.. and we all think our vets are so good, but like human doctors, some will do things that others do not agree with. even second opinions does not always make the decision easier.

This next part has nothing to do with breeding dogs.. But a good example of how doctors differ, I am meaning human or pet docs/.

I needed a new hip over 20 years ago. I was only mid 30's. I had been told my pain was all in my head for years.

Well then we moved and, an orthopedic surgeon tells me I need a new hip but was too young. So an osteotomy was done. I could not walk for 6 months. Then we moved again (military) 18 months later , and the doctor that had told me there was nothing wrong with me got to take out the pins and plates in my hip.. again he said I should never have had the surgery done, I did not have osteoarthritis in my hips.

Then the time came I needed a hip on the other side, the doctor that said I did not have this problem actually trained this new doctor that did my second hip surgery. before he did my surgery, I was still frustrated. I had two docs one saying I needed surgery and one did not, I was in such chronic pain.

Now this doctor is doing a surgery and I was so crippled and yet still confused as to which of the other two doctors were actually right, the one who did the first surgery or the one who said I should never of had it done.
The doctor that did not ever feel I needed surgery actually trained this new doctor that did my second hip surgery and full hip replacement.

When it was done 5years ago, This new doctor came into my room, they do not have time in this day and age to take time with patience after surgery. But he knew how confused I really was.. He came into my room and said he could not understand how I walked at all..that I really did have bad bad hips.

I just thought this was a good example of doctor's. I also think it can make posts get heated, as one doctor can believe what another does not.

I also hope it was ok to use this as an example for us all to understand. And Myfairlacy I think you becoming a vet is so good.. But I would like to know down the road, meeting other vets trained in a different school, how you will both think, will it be the same or will you be taught some beliefs that maybe another was trained different on some things.. I hope I am around long enough to learn more and more from you.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

Eukanuba can too. In fact any kind of puppy food can.

I'm confused.

The only thing different about puppy food is high protein and high fat. Those shouldn't make the numbers go up because a high reading after a high fat meal is consider a problem... hmmmm

Just when you think you have it figured out......

[drawlins27]

I can't believe no one has brought this up yet. I agree that Health screening is important but that doesn't catch whether or not they are a carrier of congenital defects.

For some things you just need to know the line they are coming from. For example, your female may not have liver shunt but she may very well be a carrier and there is currently no way to test for that so you would need to be very familiar with the line she came from. She could also tend to throw open fonts, again no way to test for this.

Knowing their line is just as important as health screening. Again, it all comes down to knowing the breeder you get them from (if they have not come from your own line).

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I'm confused.

The only thing different about puppy food is high protein and high fat. Those shouldn't make the numbers go up because a high reading after a high fat meal is consider a problem... hmmmm

Just when you think you have it figured out......

that's it. The high protein and fat.

[bjh]

The vaccination protocol that one of the world's leading authorities on veterinary vaccines, Dr. W. Jean Dodds, uses for canines, does not recommend vaccinating puppies before the age of 9 weeks. I feel that breeders and vets that are vaccinating before that age are doing much more harm than good. Breeders, whether they give shots themselves or have the vet do it, should wait until the pups are at least 9 weeks old. Ideally, I think 10 and 14 weeks are the best ages for vaccinations. There is an excellent post today under the 'health' thread on vaccinations and the op will email you tons of valuable information on vaccinations. Also, keep in mind that vaccinations are not totally fool proof. Just like in humans, the doctors push the flu shot but many people still get the flu.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by bjh

The vaccination protocol that one of the world's leading authorities on veterinary vaccines, Dr. W. Jean Dodds, uses for canines, does not recommend vaccinating puppies before the age of 9 weeks. I feel that breeders and vets that are vaccinating before that age are doing much more harm than good. Breeders, whether they give shots themselves or have the vet do it, should wait until the pups are at least 9 weeks old. Ideally, I think 10 and 14 weeks are the best ages for vaccinations. There is an excellent post today under the 'health' thread on vaccinations and the op will email you tons of valuable information on vaccinations. Also, keep in mind that vaccinations are not totally fool proof. Just like in humans, the doctors push the flu shot but many people still get the flu.

I've posted Dr. Dodds recommended puppy vaccination....not to be done prior to 8 weeks of age. Given at 8, 12 & 16 weeks.....and a booster at one year after the final vaccine.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

This letter from the YTCA foundation about Dr. Center's AKC grant proposal also contains the recommendation to get a bile acids test done on all puppies before they go to their new home. It's in the closing paragraph:

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

I believe Dr. Center is scheduled to lecture at the 2008 specialty. That may clear up some of the confusion over the BAT test.

I understand, however, Dr. Centers does further explain a better read is obtained at 6 months of age.

It is also known that acquired LS can show up later in a dogs life.

What I'm really excited about is the DNA testing that will determine the carriers. Bile Acids at this time will tell you if your dog has or doesn't have LS, but does not tell you if your dog is a carrier.